What's happening with Technic?

[Kostq]

36 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

the summer wave is usually more interesting

Summer wave has the more expensive sets that require/d?/ more features to sell.
All sub 50-60$ set threads taper off after somebody builds it virtually and/or makes a nice alt-build out of it. About 2-3 pages thread-wise max.
Also - is anyone citing any budget Technic set /from the last 10yrs/ as the greatest ever?
Mini Claas Xerion received some praise and I think the most alt-builds-per-TECHNIC-set on RB, but besides that - any other sets?

The most discussed topics here Set-wise are around more complex and hard to reverse-engineer-early sets or promising sets that are full of flaws visually or mechanically.
Stuff like 42108 that was bad compared to 42009 yet sold A LOT. RB had a lot of alt-builds for it. 42110's gearbox, 42099's terrible off-road-ness and such all get the treatment.

And we feel good "fixing" them and Lego continues to release them "almost baked" so we get an equilibrium.
2025 Supra will be just that - we'll be the only ones that care/fix the headlights and discuss them in 7-page forum threads.
The Corvette will get the same treatment.

I think every year has some novel mechanism that soon gets easily forgotten too.

Examples include - The Fireplane's propeller activation, the Ornithopter/it's a technic-heavy set/, the Osprey's drivetrain seem to pop out for me.
From the new lineup only the plane has some "novelty"...

EDIT - 2024 had 28 sets, no wonder I feel I can't keep up with anything...

Edited December 5, 2024 by Kostq

[johnnytifosi]

12 minutes ago, Kostq said:

EDIT - 2024 had 28 sets, no wonder I feel I can't keep up with anything... 

In the past we had 7-8 sets in a good year, but at least Lego gave a shit back then and they were products with serious thought put into them and a B-model. Now most of the sets are cookie cutter re-releases of the same design.

[howitzer]

The golden age of Technic was probably the 90's with tons and tons of new and exciting stuff released and every flagship outdoing the previous. I think there was a sort of second golden age in the 2010's, with many great sets also released (8043, 42043, 42055, 42082 to name a few) but since then the quality of the sets has declined markedly. There's been a few nice sets here and there (42128, 42145 for example) but those seem to be few and far between. So I guess the second golden age is now over and the releases are mostly really dull for us who are interested in functions and realism. But as others have pointed out, there's many new parts released every year and apparently people are buying the shelf queens which keeps the theme going, so I'm not complaining too much. I don't have to buy any set I don't feel is worth the money and getting the new parts is easy enough in the aftermarket (or PaB) if I'm patient and can afford to wait a few months.

[Toastie]

1 hour ago, Amt0571 said:

keep Technic technical, with the expected functions and complexity, for the "traditional" audience

Money? It is costly to have smart designers think about smart things for a tiny fraction of TLG's total buyers crowd. And then the box art designers, the storage facilities or on demand pipe-lines, etc. etc. 

1 hour ago, Amt0571 said:

It makes no sense having a Ferrari, a Bugatti, a Lambo and a McLaren with the same functionalities in the Technic line, especially if there's no way to see how they work after assembly.

Just assume TLG has these consumer data: These four set do sell well. In parallel. In that case, I believe there will be more such cars on sale in parallel, as long as they sell. If one or more eventually underperform, out with them.

1 hour ago, Amt0571 said:

There's plenty of market for them

That is the question - on a larger (global) scale, I doubt that. Otherwise, they would simply do it. Also, "plenty" is may be not enough, maybe they want the maximum possible.

1 hour ago, Amt0571 said:

when it's supposed to show you how things work

Maybe it is OK nowadays that it shows you "sort of" how it works - or even just pretends to show you how it works? When people buy such stuff at large - so be it ...

I know this sounds all frustrating, but it should not: These (many!) people are happy. And (presumably very) few are not. What would you do in such a situation: Listen to the few? Crank out extra money to make the few happy? Yes, some would do, but not for long - one tough competitor and gone is the charity ...

Best,
Thorsten 

[Amt0571]

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Money? It is costly to have smart designers think about smart things for a tiny fraction of TLG's total buyers crowd. And then the box art designers, the storage facilities or on demand pipe-lines, etc. etc. 

Just assume TLG has these consumer data: These four set do sell well. In parallel. In that case, I believe there will be more such cars on sale in parallel, as long as they sell. If one or more eventually underperform, out with them.

That is the question - on a larger (global) scale, I doubt that. Otherwise, they would simply do it. Also, "plenty" is may be not enough, maybe they want the maximum possible.

Maybe it is OK nowadays that it shows you "sort of" how it works - or even just pretends to show you how it works? When people buy such stuff at large - so be it ...

I know this sounds all frustrating, but it should not: These (many!) people are happy. And (presumably very) few are not. What would you do in such a situation: Listen to the few? Crank out extra money to make the few happy? Yes, some would do, but not for long - one tough competitor and gone is the charity ...

Best,
Thorsten 

Then why are there some Chinese Lego clone manufacturers doing exactly what Technic fans want? They don't know anything about market analysis?

[thekoRngear]

35 minutes ago, Amt0571 said:

Then why are there some Chinese Lego clone manufacturers doing exactly what Technic fans want? They don't know anything about market analysis?

+1

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

Money? It is costly to have smart designers think about smart things for a tiny fraction of TLG's total buyers crowd. And then the box art designers, the storage facilities or on demand pipe-lines, etc. etc. 

Just assume TLG has these consumer data: These four set do sell well. In parallel. In that case, I believe there will be more such cars on sale in parallel, as long as they sell. If one or more eventually underperform, out with them.

That is the question - on a larger (global) scale, I doubt that. Otherwise, they would simply do it. Also, "plenty" is may be not enough, maybe they want the maximum possible.

Maybe it is OK nowadays that it shows you "sort of" how it works - or even just pretends to show you how it works? When people buy such stuff at large - so be it ...

I know this sounds all frustrating, but it should not: These (many!) people are happy. And (presumably very) few are not. What would you do in such a situation: Listen to the few? Crank out extra money to make the few happy? Yes, some would do, but not for long - one tough competitor and gone is the charity ...

Best,
Thorsten 

When explaining something try not to sound like you are a TLG representative, please? The average too won't fancy the upcoming Supra that much 🤷‍♂️

[Toastie]

22 minutes ago, thekoRngear said:

try not to sound like you are a TLG representative, please?

Well, first, in a discussion like this, any viewpoint, assessment, perspective, argument, etc., is by definition a true personal thing. I as virtually all others here, don't know anything about what TLG does and why. Nothing. If my phrasing sounds like I am a TLG representative, then I am sorry, and I need to change that. I am one individual with personal opinions. What I like to do is throwing in such opinions, and I am generally waiting for flak from all sides. Call it criticism - or whatever the result of a discussion is. No one is explaining anything, it is a discussion. And a discussion literally lives through exchanging arguments. Should these sound offensive, OK, then I should begin each paragraph with "In my personal opinion", "after I thought about this", "may be", "... or not". I don't see that often here on EB, though, and secondly, for me this is the default.

Hey, and if a TLG representative would bring some of my arguments, I'd simply faint.

Summing up: Please accept my apologies for sounding like a smart a*s - I shall try better!

All the best and here is to feeling good

Thorsten

Edited December 5, 2024 by Toastie

[aFrInaTi0n]

1 hour ago, Amt0571 said:

Then why are there some Chinese Lego clone manufacturers doing exactly what Technic fans want? They don't know anything about market analysis?

I think you read Toasties post too hostile - he did not state nobody should not do more experimental stuff.

Maybe you have the point here: They do not have exact data of what succeeds and therefore have to experiment in the market with a wider variety. I think you and me can be happy about them doing so, while Toastie still will be happy for us being happy with them.

Cheers :)

[zoo]

3 hours ago, howitzer said:

The golden age of Technic was probably the 90's with tons and tons of new and exciting stuff released and every flagship outdoing the previous.

Where there realy tons though? I remember the late 80s and early 90s with great fondness, but I am not so sure there were a greater quantity of complex high end sets released back then compared to today.

[Toastie]

13 minutes ago, aFrInaTi0n said:

I think you and me can be happy about them doing so, while Toastie still will be happy for us being happy with them.

You nailed it And with them, because they make me happy and you guys as well!

Have a nice evening!

Best,
Thorsten

[M_longer]

5 hours ago, Kostq said:

42108 that was bad compared to 42009 yet sold A LOT.

Covid era. Really. Some sets were a high grossing ones, due to their price and people looking for something to build while on lockdown.
 

[StudWorks]

What I'm really wondering is are the winter 2025 sets so darn expensive.

The Supra and Corvette are $10 more than the Bolide and Huracan from last year despite the latter being much better sets. I heard that the Bolide and Huracan didn't really fly off store shelves, and if that's the case they should have made the decision to price the Supra and Corvette at $40 honestly.

The Red Bull and Ferrari F1 cars should be, tops $170, NOT $230. And I agree with others, the Ferrari F1 should have been cheaper with its lower piece count compared to the Red Bull F1.

And the Tipping Dump Truck should have been priced exactly the same as last year's Mack Garbage Truck, for common sense's sake.

I also can't help but think the inclusion of the Deep-Sea Research Submarine is a little inappropriate after the whole Ocean Gate Titan tragedy, in my opinion it's still an uninteresting set anyways.

[Toastie]

4 hours ago, Amt0571 said:

Then why are there some Chinese Lego clone manufacturers doing exactly what Technic fans want? They don't know anything about market analysis?

Hmmm. We are opening Pandora's box, don't we?

A couple of more discussion topics: Why do most many companies do their mass production in China? How large is the brain pool "they" can tap in? Or phrased differently: How many people are (still - China is of course "evolving", if not "there") willing to come up with brilliant technical solutions - for a toy? How "hungry" are people to thrive towards certain goals for a - let's call it still limited - salary? What else are these companies doing compared to what TLG does with regard to other activities?

I have >no< clue. But when it comes to China, they literally kick butt everywhere. Not meant in a "positive" nor "negative" sense, just as an as cool as possible analysis (for me) of observations. They push every high-tech company on the other side of their world to their limits. Why not doing so in plastic brick fabrication?

I am still thinking about your argument ... thank you for bringing it up!

All the best,
Thorsten     

     

Edited December 5, 2024 by Toastie

[SimonCK]

I went to the online shop and selected "sets by theme" and counted them up, there are 45 themes listed! Of which approx 25 are licenced themes. So technic is just 1/45 themes in the big picture. 

Many of these themes only have a handful of sets, often display based models aimed at adults and priced accordingly. 

And that is what worries me with technic,  do any children still move on from regular lego to technic?  My 3 children haven't.  They regard technic lego the same way they regard scheduled television - a thing for boring parents.  The majority of the technic range is licenced and subsequently priced beyond the aspirations of kids. It's evolved into an adult display theme.  My teenage son is motorsport mad but doesn't care in the slightest for lego technic F1 cars, he'd rather play PlayStation F1 game.

Models with cool functionality appeal to the inner child in us all, and they have their roots in being educational toys for young teenagers.  If technic has either lost or abandoned that age group then there's little economic reason to make those models. Which is a shame because they're my favourite too.  

[Toastie]

8 minutes ago, SimonCK said:

The majority of the technic range is licenced and subsequently priced beyond the aspirations of kids. It's evolved into an adult display theme.  My teenage son is motorsport mad but doesn't care in the slightest for lego technic F1 cars, he'd rather play PlayStation F1 game.

Does very well fit in (this is some heavy data bombarding, but scroll down to the customer's ages ;) summary the boomers (that's me!) - OK and then the coming folks - rock

https://www.coolest-gadgets.com/lego-statistics/

And yes, this is just ONE website - but the data they show are partly from statista.com; and that site sucks (sometimes), as they (naturally) want you to pay for the interesting stuff ;) Oops, wait: Aluminum hat off .

Best,
Thorsten

[allanp]

Well I'm still of the opinion that, despite being part of a minority group pf customers, we are the ones that know better than the masses or the casuals what the Technic theme is capable of. We really do care about the theme far beyond "that looks cool". And it's always the same discussion, the same comments every wave of sets that gets revealed. We are a minority. TLG has to cater to the masses. We are not the masses but only a relatively small group. Technic needs to be easy to build and so on! Yes. We know. Nobody on here is saying that Technic shouldn't be easy to build or cater to the masses or do what it needs to do to be successful. After all, if it's not successful, it won't exist. We all get that. 

However, the argument is why must it ONLY cater to the masses? It can look eye catching, covered in panels, easy to build and be licensed out the megablocks, non of that means that it can't also be mechanically interesting and authentic and cater to the core fan base as well.

Bear in mind, that when it comes to the parts selection, I personally feel VERY listened to by the Technic team, I really do! So I don't really want to complain, that would be very ungrateful, but I do think a point needs to be made when it comes to the sets/theme as a whole.

Lets take the P1 for example. Yes it's another car that's easy for casuals to build and appeals to that market as a nice display piece. Would that be any different if they made the steering work much better, with longer steering arms (increased leverage to turn the wheel will decrease the cheap, awkward and spongy feel), ackermann geometry, a discreet hoG and a steering wheel that is angled upwards towards the driver in a more realistic way? No it wouldn't! it would still appeal the the masses and the casuals and still be easy to build and still look good collecting dust and all the rest of it. 

What about the P1 gearbox? It has the lovely new parts but those parts are still arranged in an unrealistically complex way. Did the set designer not know what the part designer intended? Do the masses and the casuals find it easy to build and understand? Wouldn't they find it even easier if it was more like a real gearbox with only 2 shafts? Would it suddenly become completely useless as a display piece if the gearbox was more like the real thing?

The point is, many on this forum seem to be arguing that Technic should appeal to the masses as if making something that appeals to us would make it appeal less to everyone else for some reason, and I just don't see any reason for that. I see it the opposite way, we know how good it could be, they don't. As far as Technic goes, the masses probably couldn't tell you what they want from the theme until it's presented to them. Why would they, they don't obsess over the theme like we do!

Why would the masses and the casuals want crap feeling steering, or color vomit that makes their very expensive, made for adults, built for real 18+ adult model car look like a toy made for toddlers when there are other (and I believe more effective) options for reducing the risk of making mistakes and making parts easy to find, or RC sets that cost more but perform less than other RC models and don't have a physical remote and weak sauce pre geared motors? 

Ah but it clearly sells I hear you cry. Okay.....so is that it?

What if it could still sell but be a better product that holds on to the core ethos "only the best is good enough", that actually fulfills the marketing "build for real" and "adults welcome" promise, and holds on to a fanbase that have spent more on Lego than any casual ever will, that same core fan base that should still be around long after this "Lego for adults" marketing has passed? Nope, it sells well enough. What if we could make it sell better? What if we could make it look better to hardcore fans and casuals alike? What if we could make this success last another 50 years after everyone is pissed off with StarWars? What if......nope, it sells okay right now in this point in time, that's all that counts! Sorry, I'm not convinced.

Edited December 5, 2024 by allanp

[Toastie]

@allanp

Wow.

I feel ... silence ... after reading your post - or better - your wonderful, powerful speech!

I wish you were invited to a Billund dinner type event, with scheduled brief talks (not presentations) on "How does TLG do with Technic". You had to submit an abstract for your talk - it was a little vague - yes there would be some criticism, the reviewers said, but in the end, TLG would stand out, as they are the ones, who invented it.

And then your speech takes off - in the end, you are jumping on a table close to the big guys: "Sorry, I am - NOT convinced".

I am absolutely >not< joking or mocking. I truly believe that this kind of input would at least cause - silence and induce thinking. Whatever the outcome would be. I am not sure that they get this outstanding type of enthusiasm anymore.

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts - I enjoyed every word you wrote!

Best regards,
Thorsten

   

[Lipko]

8 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hmmm. We are opening Pandora's box, don't we?

A couple of more discussion topics: Why do most many companies do their mass production in China? How large is the brain pool "they" can tap in? Or phrased differently: How many people are (still - China is of course "evolving", if not "there") willing to come up with brilliant technical solutions - for a toy? How "hungry" are people to thrive towards certain goals for a - let's call it still limited - salary? What else are these companies doing compared to what TLG does with regard to other activities?

I have >no< clue. But when it comes to China, they literally kick butt everywhere. Not meant in a "positive" nor "negative" sense, just as an as cool as possible analysis (for me) of observations. They push every high-tech company on the other side of their world to their limits. Why not doing so in plastic brick fabrication?

I am still thinking about your argument ... thank you for bringing it up!

All the best,
Thorsten     

     

A little conteo here: Chinese have some unortodox marketing in most markets. Some reviewers act like they are being paid. Many commenters are surely being payed. The hype around Third Body Problem is an example, it was mostly fueled by "agents" (it is a medicore at best sci-fi novel hyped into the stratosphere). I guess also a lot of state money is fuelling their own industry.
I saw some of the hyped non-lego models, and I wasn't that impressed. They were shelf queens just like the Lego models, but with much more questinable building techniques. Like stressing parts or extremely fiddly weak connections, and major mechanical fails, like the Alfa Romeo rear suspension (and it couldn't even roll).

[Ngoc Nguyen]

 

[gyenesvi]

I agree with what @allanp said above. I understand them making models that sell well, sure, but feels like they used to put more effort into making them technically more interesting in the old times, and I don't think that the two would be mutually exclusive. I feel like old models used to push technical possibilities to the limit (maybe even too much and some became too complex / weak?) and nowadays they are not doing that, just settle with "good enough to sell" solutions, instead of approaching "only the best is good enough". And as I said above already, where it really effects us MOC-ers is when that 'lazyness' effects new parts, or rather the lack of them. Though true that some interesting new parts have arrived in the recent past and more seem to be coming in the near future, which is really good, so hopefully these rants do have some effect :)

[nerdsforprez]

I find all the comments about money somewhat amusing.  

We just had another thread talk about paid vs. unpaid instructions from AFOLs, and it was obvious there folks were reluctant to pay AFOLs for instructions created.  Pay even a fraction of what Lego sets costs (I get it is for pieces only) .  Again, they complained about $$.  

Hobbies cost money folks.  And I dare say Lego is one of the cheaper options for adults.  Sure, there are cheaper ones.  I hunt for fossils along with building.  Costs me pretty much nothing other than gas and other travel expenses.  But there are much, much more expensive options.  Seems to me that part of the issue, is us.  We should, along with all our skepticism towards TLG, look internally.  

Here is an idea.  If you don't like official sets, and you don't feel you have the time, talent or abilities to build amazing builds then go to rebrickable and find a MOC from an AFOL to build.  Sure, you have to build up an inventory of parts... and yes, that still costs money, but serious AFOLs often already have a good parts selection.  

I find it somewhat contradictory that many complain about the costs of sets, but you can get the instructions for much better builds on RB for 15-20 bucks USD (I get it not a direct comparison b/c one must have the collection) and people then complain about the instructions not being free.  Amazing to me.  

Are we as AFOLs too cheap?  Not a popular take... but I'm afraid it must be asked.    

[Lipko]

50 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said:

I find all the comments about money somewhat amusing.  

We just had another thread talk about paid vs. unpaid instructions from AFOLs, and it was obvious there folks were reluctant to pay AFOLs for instructions created.  Pay even a fraction of what Lego sets costs (I get it is for pieces only) .  Again, they complained about $$.  

Hobbies cost money folks.  And I dare say Lego is one of the cheaper options for adults.  Sure, there are cheaper ones.  I hunt for fossils along with building.  Costs me pretty much nothing other than gas and other travel expenses.  But there are much, much more expensive options.  Seems to me that part of the issue, is us.  We should, along with all our skepticism towards TLG, look internally.  

Here is an idea.  If you don't like official sets, and you don't feel you have the time, talent or abilities to build amazing builds then go to rebrickable and find a MOC from an AFOL to build.  Sure, you have to build up an inventory of parts... and yes, that still costs money, but serious AFOLs often already have a good parts selection.  

I find it somewhat contradictory that many complain about the costs of sets, but you can get the instructions for much better builds on RB for 15-20 bucks USD (I get it not a direct comparison b/c one must have the collection) and people then complain about the instructions not being free.  Amazing to me.  

Are we as AFOLs too cheap?  Not a popular take... but I'm afraid it must be asked.    

Most AFOLs are collectors. I thinks that's the reason for complaining. I don't complain (usually) because I'm not a collector. So I don't mind if many or most official sets are lame because I don't have to buy them. I can say I'm doing this hobby seriously, yet my lifetime (about 12 years) spending on Lego is about 2500-3000€

[CK28]

1 hour ago, nerdsforprez said:

I find it somewhat contradictory that many complain about the costs of sets, but you can get the instructions for much better builds on RB for 15-20 bucks USD (I get it not a direct comparison b/c one must have the collection) and people then complain about the instructions not being free.  Amazing to me.  

Are we as AFOLs too cheap?  Not a popular take... but I'm afraid it must be asked.    

Most likely has to do with the effort you have to put in to get said set or moc, buying a set means you get the full package and are ready to go while buying instructions on RB is just the first step, you have to find out if you own all the necessary parts than need to find/sort them etc. I don't want to call these folks lazy but i do think this has to do with the ease a set provised compared to a (premium) moc.

Otherwise i do agree on a lot of point that have been said before here, there is whole world of MOC's to discover and we still get treated with new parts etc which expands the possibilities for those MOC's. But yeah the overall quality and complexity i surely going down, looking at it from a sales perspective a lot of things can be explaind but it is still a pity for us diehard technic fans. 

Edit: the collecting point Lipko makes is also a good one, although i would just skip those sets i can understand the feeling when things don't seem to change for some time now and even the more hyped sets seem to be disappointments (which is of course a personal judgment)

Edited December 6, 2024 by CK28

[aFrInaTi0n]

I for myself need to be more easy with the world not always being in the state I would wish for.. 

As we are not having millions of different people posting here (I guess it may be millions of recurring customers of LEGO), we are just a fraction of their customers. Nobody is forced to buy their sets, nor shall anybody feel bad for doing so - for whatever reason the person may have.. I am just happy about me being able to freely pick "the right things for myself out of multiple (vendors') worlds" - this may not be the same preference for other people and I can respect that. Our different opinions allows the market to get interesting for the manufacturers and competition is always a good thing for developing ideas.. If it works out for LEGO in their current way it may be fine for them and also us..

On top the choice to be a purist LEGO person has two sides of a coin, I think one needs to accept both when one chooses for being a purist. Likewise for the other fraction of people: "Why not being happy for having all the choices between vendors and not yelling at the purists if they don't like?!"

[captainmib]

16 hours ago, StudWorks said:

I also can't help but think the inclusion of the Deep-Sea Research Submarine is a little inappropriate after the whole Ocean Gate Titan tragedy, in my opinion it's still an uninteresting set anyways.

If we follow this direction, Lego should absolutely stop producing cars, since they create a lot more misery on a lot of people on a daily basis. Polution, accidents, deaths, etc.

 

I came out of my dark age around 2010, 2011 and was blessed with sets like 8258, 8110, 8070 (a car, yes, but with functions and playability).

I find that kind of balance between pricing, interesting model, functionality and looks only once every five years orso.

Most recent purchase was 42145 - Airbus helicopter that has that kind of balance.

 

For me, the balance is completely gone. Pricing is insane, large models with way to many pieces, 75% of the sets is a car.

 

I'm disappointed, but the only thing you can do is stop buying sets.