Star Wars

[DarthSion]

Sad news, Ian Ambercrombie has passed away.

http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/index.php/2012/01/30/the-clone-wars-crew-remembers-ian-ambercrombie/

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

I feel I'm in a minority here now as someone who loves the PT, CW, TCW, and OT equally , sure they have inconsistencies but so do a lot of really great stories.

You are not.

Count me in. I love them all.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Sir_Basil_Ashton

[Darth Nihilus]

Edit: I feel I'm in a minority here now as someone who loves the PT, CW, TCW, and OT equally , sure they have inconsistencies but so do a lot of really great stories.

Same here. So many people hate the PT and CW while loving the OT, while others hate the OT and love the PT and CW, and some people don't like any of them but love the EU. Me, I might have a small preference for the EU, mainly because of such great games as TFU I & II, The Clone Wars: Republic Heroes, Republic Commando, Knights of the Old Republic, The Old Republic, and many more, but I love all of SW pretty much equally.

[Brickadeer]

Maybe the Duel on the Death Star was so much more epic than the Duel on Mustafar, but our puny non force equipped brained couldn't handle it and all we could see was two old men hitting each other with their walking sticks.

I find that both duels are fundamentally different.

The PT duels e.g. between Kenobi and Maull or Kenobi and Skywalker are about action. Both fighters try to defeat the other one physically (this is not quite correct, since Obi Wan has no choice but to physically harm Anakin, although it takes some time until he realizes his lack of options). In the duel between Kenobi and Vader, however, this is only true for Vader.

Vader seeks revenge and Kenobi's death; Kenobi on the other hand knows that he won't leave the Death Star alive for several reasons. The conflict is about who's will will have prevailed at the end of the situation, and Kenobi knows that he again will prevail. He even tells Vader that he can't win: Vader is a mere tool to unify Kenobi with the force. Later, Vader says that "this is a great day because it has seen the end of Kenobi and is about to see the end of the rebellion". He simply doesn't see that Kenobi continues, and that his physical death was part of his plan to let Luke escape as a prerequisite to end the reign of the Sith. It takes some time until Vader realizes how far Kenobi's plans actually were; at the end of ROJ he seems to see clearer. So to me, the physical part of the duel is simply not important, and I find that acrobatic minimalism emphazises the more abstract meaning.

Comparing the duels on Mustafar and the Death Star, one might say that Anakin's will prevailed on Mustafar although Kenobi defeated him physically (Kenobi wasn't able to prevent Anakin from joining the dark side, so he left Kenobi with no choice), while Kenobi's will prevailed on the Death Star while Vader defeated him physically.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Mr Man]

I agree that the OT duels can all be explained as having a deeper meaning than just wining, which leads to less acrobatics etc, most of them where Vader trying to convert Luke, and the Duel on the Death Star was, I think, Obi not fighting to his full potential as he was only there to stall Vader so wanted a duel of attrition, and Vader wanted to drag it out to kill Obi slowly as revenge for Mustafar.

[Churchill]

These are all just ways that we try to explain the discontinuity between the OT and PT. I doubt that there was any deep meaning to the blandness of the OT duels when they were being written/directed.

I can come up with a hundred and one reasons to explain the discontinuity between the series to make myself feel better. Lucas may come up with some "official" reasons.

But none of those were true in 1977. Better special effects make maker duels. We just have to live with it, I guess.

[LEGOman273]

These are all just ways that we try to explain the discontinuity between the OT and PT. I doubt that there was any deep meaning to the blandness of the OT duels when they were being written/directed.

I can come up with a hundred and one reasons to explain the discontinuity between the series to make myself feel better. Lucas may come up with some "official" reasons.

But none of those were true in 1977. Better special effects make maker duels. We just have to live with it, I guess.

We know. We were wondering about what the in-universe explaination is.

[Lothos]

Well. You could look it at like this!

In ANH: They had Grandpa fighting the handicapped man. So of course it'd be slow!

In Empire: They had new guy with a lightsaber fighting handicapped guy with a lightsaber. So new guy won't be doing much flipping or anything else as he's a new guy. And handicapped man is in an iron lung!

In ROTJ: New guy is semi coordinated and sorta knows what he's doing, so the fighting becomes a bit better but nothing like Pre Grandpa Obi Wan and pr Iron LUng Anakin! And then we have Handicapped man still being handicapped and Great Grandpa. I don't expect alot out of those.

And if you look at the writing between the two trilogies, the PT has to rely on special effects, because honestly, the stories sucked. Sure, it looked great. but c'mon. We had to watch Nascar in space for 20 minutes in one movie, and then put up with Alien Rabbit people who live underwater. All the while wondering "When the hell are we going to see Anakin not be a statue."

And Attack of the clones? Whine-akin was exactly that. I had thought it would get better after he Killed some Sand people, back to whinning.

Revenge: One good thing came from this movie as far as writing goes. Every line, action or shot of Obi wan. Mcgregor did such a good job with the character it's why I went to see the movie in the first place. And I was hoping for less whiney Anakin. And I was wrong. Awesome.

[spitfire]

Another way to look at the fighting scenes, is that the duels in OT are realistic and in PT not so much. If one possesses a weapon that can cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter, he's not really going to jump around like a duracell bunny on ecstasy. He stays calm and calculative, knowing that every false move is probably going to be the last move he'll ever make.

[Fallenangel]

I remember having read somewhere that lightsaber dueling was originally choreographed as a cross between broadsword fighting and fencing. Presumably this concept was abandoned for the Prequels (springs are just so much more fun, I guess ).

[Mr Man]

Revenge: One good thing came from this movie as far as writing goes. Every line, action or shot of Obi wan. Mcgregor did such a good job with the character it's why I went to see the movie in the first place. And I was hoping for less whiney Anakin. And I was wrong. Awesome.

I agree with this last point Obi made that film .

Another way to look at the fighting scenes, is that the duels in OT are realistic and in PT not so much. If one possesses a weapon that can cut through flesh like a hot knife through butter, he's not really going to jump around like a duracell bunny on ecstasy. He stays calm and calculative, knowing that every false move is probably going to be the last move he'll ever make.

Yes but I you can move faster than your opponent you have an advantage, and if both of you can move as fast then... fight on a volcano dammit , if Obi had tried that in ROTS angry ani would have killed him in seconds.

The best duel I think in the whole saga was Duel of the Fates in TPM, it looked natural not choreographed, it flowed, had Darth Maul in it (), and was fast enough to be interesting, but slow enough to look like the combatants where 'like a duracell bunny on ecstasy'.

I remember having read somewhere that lightsaber dueling was originally choreographed as a cross between broadsword fighting and fencing. Presumably this concept was abandoned for the Prequels (springs are just so much more fun, I guess ).

It was on the special features commentary for ANH on my DVD version, the Duel on the Death Star was based on Kendo or something, with the combatants having to hold the sabres two handed.

[Brickadeer]

Yes but I you can move faster than your opponent you have an advantage, and if both of you can move as fast then... fight on a volcano dammit , if Obi had tried that in ROTS angry ani would have killed him in seconds.

Speed of movement is an issue, but it takes a lot more to decide a combat. If these duels were about realism, they'd be pretty short, while the eye of an observer would not even be able to recognize what aspect of a certain action within two sequences of actions was deciding the fight. Generally, fighting scenes in cinema are unrealistic simply to give the audience the possibility to see and to understand what happens; roughly speaking, these invisible aspects have to be translated into visible actions that form a quite different visual sequence of actions.

[DarthR2-D2]

I wouldn't say that Obi-Wan didn't care about droids. According to Wookipedia, he was sad when his astromech droid was destroyed. (During the Battle of Coruscant-Episode III-)

No I think he was freakin scared/worried because thses buzz droids were "eating" his ship and R4-P17. Not so much sad. He might've thought later on when he was fighting Dooku thet he missed the little droid. But Jedi don't have attachments especially with little pieces of equipment. And don't nobody tell me about Anakin, he doesn't count.

[Mr Man]

Speed of movement is an issue, but it takes a lot more to decide a combat. If these duels were about realism, they'd be pretty short, while the eye of an observer would not even be able to recognize what aspect of a certain action within two sequences of actions was deciding the fight. Generally, fighting scenes in cinema are unrealistic simply to give the audience the possibility to see and to understand what happens; roughly speaking, these invisible aspects have to be translated into visible actions that form a quite different visual sequence of actions.

Ordinarily I would say they would be short but Jedi have superhuman endurance and stamina. The Duel on Mustafar was one between two of the greatest fighters of the order (At least Ani is meant to be ), they are pretty evenly matched, so it has to be a duel of attrition.

[The Legonater]

Nick Gallard- the stunt director for the prequels- explained in the Episode 1 special features that the OT was basically in the dieing days of the Jedi- the only Jedi around were two extremly old men, and the new guy without a lot of training. To add to it, they were against a guy fully incased in machinery, and another really old man. The Prequels, however, where set in the prime time of the Jedi, and thus everything would be sped up and intensified.

If you think about it, it is a good explanation.

[LEGOman273]

Nick Gallard- the stunt director for the prequels- explained in the Episode 1 special features that the OT was basically in the dieing days of the Jedi- the only Jedi around were two extremly old men, and the new guy without a lot of training. To add to it, they were against a guy fully incased in machinery, and another really old man. The Prequels, however, where set in the prime time of the Jedi, and thus everything would be sped up and intensified.

If you think about it, it is a good explanation.

That makes sense.

[Mr Man]

Nick Gallard- the stunt director for the prequels- explained in the Episode 1 special features that the OT was basically in the dieing days of the Jedi- the only Jedi around were two extremly old men, and the new guy without a lot of training. To add to it, they were against a guy fully incased in machinery, and another really old man. The Prequels, however, where set in the prime time of the Jedi, and thus everything would be sped up and intensified.

If you think about it, it is a good explanation.

Yeah but Out of the Jedi left Obi was a incredible sabre master, and only as old as Qui Gon was in episode I, The chosen one and his son, the embodiment of the Darkside^tm who fought Yoda to a standstill. The argument of them loosing power or something only stands up pre-prequels.

[LEGOman273]

Yeah but Out of the Jedi left Obi was a incredible sabre master, and only as old as Qui Gon was in episode I, The chosen one and his son, the embodiment of the Darkside^tm who fought Yoda to a standstill. The argument of them loosing power or something only stands up pre-prequels.

I thought Obi-Wan was older than that.

Vader did lose power when he was encased in the armor.

[Brickdoctor]

You do have to realize that Vader's duels get better throughout the OT, so you can't just say he was slow because he was old. I think a better explanation is that Obi-Wan really is too old, and Vader is so handicapped that he's merely playing down to just above the level of his opponent because he doesn't want to exert himself more than necessary. In Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader, Vader complains that the suit (notably the shoulder armor) interferes with his lightsaber fighting style, so it makes sense for him not to want to have to duel any faster or more intense than he needs to. Then, in Empire and Jedi, the duels get more intense because Luke gets better, and Vader continues to fight as slowly as is possible.

[CMP]

Episode IV was basically two old guys fighting with what may as well be canes.

Episode V was the eager new guy going ballistic on a more refined fighter. -1 hand.

Episode VI was where Luke was well trained, and more than a match for Vader. One might argue Vader should've beaten Luke, but at that point we finally learned the extent of his disabilities. Near the end of the fight it really got intense (namely after Vader's realization about Leia). It was then Luke really defeated Vader, but drifted rather close to hate while doing so.

Episode I was a bit too choreographed, but wasn't terrible. Plus you kind of have to be 'spinny' with a dual lightsaber.

Episode II between Dooku and Anakin was pretty good. You could see Anakin really being aggressive in his fighting style. Again, -1 hand. Dookue vs Obi-wan was also good, but what it really did was help to define characters. Why go psycho on the bad guy when you can keep a cool Obi-wan head? And then Yoda shows up and it got a little weird.

Episode III, on the Invisible Hand, was like a condensed Episode II duel. Except this time Anakin won, obviously. Obi-wan versus Grievous, while the actual lightsaber part was painfully short, was awesome. If not unrealistic. Really, he should've been bisected within 6 seconds. Mace versus Palpatine was just an act, the way I see it. I'm not even going to touch on the other 'Jedi'. Palpatine versus Yoda was well-done. The actual duel was short, yes, but they're two old guys far more powerful with the Force than they are with lightsabers. Although I think both were far too agile. Anakin versus Obi-wan was cool, except for a few parts (randomly spinning lightsabers in the middle of the duel, kicking eachother...), but overall played out well.

PT lightsaber duels expose more emotion than most of what the actors do, to be honest, and it did similarly in the OT. The duels are actually very important parts of the movie, thinking about it, and the effects are just for...effect. They tried to go overboard in both, though they had far more success in the PT (Vader throwing around crap in Empire was terrible effects, and I think they tried to make up for it with Dooku/Yoda and Palpy/Yoda in their respective episodes. More or less, they did.)

[Mr Man]

Episode I was a bit too choreographed, but wasn't terrible. Plus you kind of have to be 'spinny' with a dual lightsaber.

I disagree, The Duel of the Fates was the least choreographed duel in the saga, it looked perfectly natural, the only one that beats it in terms of realism is the Duel on Bespin in ESB. (BTW Darth Maul + double bladed lightsabre = win!! ).

[Darth Nihilus]

Episode IV was basically two old guys fighting with what may as well be canes.

So true though. My namesake's game's duels were so much better.

[The Legonater]

I pretty much agree with Pie. Ditto all the OT comments. The Duel of the Fates has to be one of my favorites duel, especially from the prequels, because it was well done and quick, without the use of excesive CGI on the part of the actual duelers. That has always been my big gripe with the Battle of the Heroes duel. I agree about the Anakin/Obi-Wan and Dooku duel. IMO, throwing Yoda in was just a way to prove their CGI mettle and wow the audience. Sure, it worked, but after a while it looks weird. And ditto on Episode 3 as well, though I found Mace/Palps a little more interesting than that. Until the end, of course, where Mace screams a hundred times over that he's going to kill Palps without actually doing anything.

[Brickdoctor]

On the topic of Jedi behavior, I'd like to take the time to say that the latest strip of Brick House was hilarious:

[CMP]

On the topic of Jedi behavior, I'd like to take the time to say that the latest strip of Brick House was hilarious:

*Snip*

I'm surprised this is he first time Star Wars has really been brought up in the strip. The George Lucas jokes are just going to pile....