Algernon Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) This topic is a joke. Kids are not SO susceptible to what they play with that defeating aliens with humans will make them racists. People are so freaking sensitive about potentially "racist" or "sexist" remarks these days that you can get your head bitten off for even suggesting that some inherent differences may exist between the races or the sexes, be them in favor of one or the other. Nothing makes me sicker than further evidence of how deeply our society has it's head up it's buttocks. Just because you find something offensive does not mean that something should be wiped clean off the map. Freedom of speech implies that people can say/do things you may not approve of, and yes, this extends to LEGO's marketing strategy. Edited February 13, 2009 by Algernon Quote
xenologer Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Are you serious with this? You made a topic about stereotypes and you go and make stereotypes about a whole nation and a whole gender? Maybe you should look at yourself about falling to stereotypes before you go and crusade against them. I am actually from the U.S.A. and the only thing that offends me is ignorance and hypocrites. Hey now, keep an eye on yourself as well. He said 'American' so don't go assuming that you in the USA are the only Americans, there's hundreds of other countries in Central and South America. Quote
Bob Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I can't believe we're even having a discussion as to whether we should worry about being offensive to imaginary aliens...Steve I agree with you. These aliens aren't going to come to life and attack us just because of this. Besides, what does it really matter? Their plastic minifigures... Quote
hewkii9 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 When looking at the new Space Police sets I got really mad at the narrow-mindedness of the character design. Maybe it's to farfetched, but it was the first thing I thought of. Why are the villains aliens. It's not like Mars mission, there the villains were one particular race of aliens, but now every alien is a villain. It's so racist in my opinion. Of course no one will really get offended, but still, Lego is for the kids and now it tells them that what is strange, must be bad. Well kids wouldn't really like Space Police with just criminals in space, it'd be dull to them, and we'd think of it as just Agents in Space. Plus this way we get a bunch of delicious new molds Quote
Derek Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Hey now, keep an eye on yourself as well. He said 'American' so don't go assuming that you in the USA are the only Americans, there's hundreds of other countries in Central and South America. Typically, when one refers to "Americans", they mean someone who lives in the United States. I personally think this should be closed. It was a joke to begin with, and its only going further downhill... Quote
Dadster Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) I can't believe we're even having a discussion as to whether we should worry about being offensive to imaginary aliens...Steve But where would the internet be without that?! I was actually thinking that I saw an arm of a "typical human" in the end of the line-up. I guess we'll have to wait for better (legal) pics. Edited February 13, 2009 by Dadster Quote
Batbrick Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 All I know is that I'll be switching up some of my Space Police and Alien heads so I can make it more like Joebot said, a sort of Green Lantern core against any alien or human who goes against the law. Batbrick Away! Quote
bamaker Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 LEGO has no shadowy motive to turn little Billy or Zak into a raving racist. But they do have a shadowy motive to turn them into addicts, because I know I can't stop buying 'em! ...Oh, and I don't think there are hundreds of other American countries. Maybe dozens, but not hundreds. Quote
Eilif Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Wow, alot of stuff going on in this thread. Aliens vs humans. It sells, and it's better than human vs human violence. Yeah, there could have been "goodguy" aliens, but TLG chose to keep it simple, and let the kids sort it out. Surely that's not a terrible thing. Indy and other Lic themes. For the most part, they color it like it is in the films or cartoons. The films may be "offensive" to some, but TLG didn't write the films. Also, it's not hard to see that "nazi" might be more offensive than "Russian. As for why they didn't say "German" I'm not sure... Overall, Can we just be glad that for their own lines, LEGO has stuck to the comparatively race neutral yellow heads. I'm by no means an expert in these things, but based on my experience, I must say that these kind of discussions are usually pretty divorced from reality. I've done LEGO classes for inner-city (mostly african-american) boys in the neighborhood where I work and live, and when the LEGO gets dumped out on the floor no one cares what "color" Jack Stone is. That said, I do recognize the importance of race-familiar toys and educational material (remember the good-bad black-white association studies with minority children of the past couple decades?) so when giving out LEGO, I prefer to sidestep the issue and provide sets with race-neutral yellow LEGO figs. Edited February 13, 2009 by Eilif Quote
Derek Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 I seriously can't believe we're actually having this conversation.... Quote
natelite Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Hey now, keep an eye on yourself as well. He said 'American' so don't go assuming that you in the USA are the only Americans, there's hundreds of other countries in Central and South America. unfortunately i will need to correct you on that. americans are those in the USA. you would call those in central, south and north america - mexicans, hondurans, colombians, venezuelians, argentinians, brazilians, cubans, peruvians, uruguayans, paraguayans, canadians, etc. seriously, you dont call them unitedians or statesians. you plain ol'e call them americans. Quote
Asuka Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 Oh no, TLC does it again... they make me jump on the bandwagon of cool aliens challenging the authority of a fascistic police state... where´ll this end? However... I would love to see at least some weird alien as commissioner... Quote
hewkii9 Posted February 13, 2009 Posted February 13, 2009 However... I would love to see at least some weird alien as commissioner... Commissioner Gordon from the planet Fleshie? Would kill two birds with one stone. Quote
xenologer Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 unfortunately i will need to correct you on that. americans are those in the USA. you would call those in central, south and north america - mexicans, hondurans, colombians, venezuelians, argentinians, brazilians, cubans, peruvians, uruguayans, paraguayans, canadians, etc. seriously, you dont call them unitedians or statesians. you plain ol'e call them americans. As a US Citizen I consider it arrogant of my fellow US Citizens to co-opt the the name 'American' for themselves when as you just showed there are so many other groups who live in region. I call them 'US Citizens' not 'Americans'; as this term is more descriptive of what we really are: US-United States, and not just the region. Quote
Dadster Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 As a US Citizen I consider it arrogant of my fellow US Citizens to co-opt the the name 'American' for themselves when as you just showed there are so many other groups who live in region. I call them 'US Citizens' not 'Americans'; as this term is more descriptive of what we really are: US-United States, and not just the region. Yeah - because Brazilians, Peruvians, and Cubans secretly really want to call themselves Americans... Back to the topic at hand though. All those new aliens - were they actually listed somewhere as being "evil" or is that just the perception? 'Course, they are lined up with "wanted" under the names...maybe I just answered my own question. Its late. I'm off to bed... Quote
Hinckley Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Guys, look at Agents! The bad guys are actual humans. Maybe freakish (metal jaws, slime faces, flame hair?) but they're still humans. And besides..... They are cyborgs. Quote
hewkii9 Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 They are cyborgs. Tsk tsk..."racism" on even our Admins' parts? This is a ridiculous day indeed when we come to petty squabbling about cyborgs and humans. Kids find Agents exciting because the good guys are fighting dudes with flipping robot arms, not because it's human fig on human fig combat. And on that note, wouldn't human fig on human fig be more likely to offend than human fig on four-armed alien? Quote
Darth_Dracus Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 All I know is that you can't have a good sci-fi without racial stereotypes, *cough* Star Wars *cough* *cough*. Quote
fallentomato Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 So I'm going to start out by saying that I think this is actually an important topic and one that I've tried to bring up before. I know it may seem like a silly thing to debate, but I don't think that's ever stopped anyone before. I think the issue is not one of people being offended (unless there's a big Squidman demographic out there that I'm not aware of). The issue is teaching kids that the Other (whether that be an alien, troll, monster, or basically anyone who doesn't look like you) is evil. TLC used to be more careful about this sort of thing. When you look back at the Native American sets or the Islander sets, none of them have any built-in conflict, where Native Americans were fighting with the soldiers. The two groups were sold in completely different sets with no overlap. I have to think that was done intentionally. Speaking of Native Americans, don't the descriptions of the Mars Mission storyline sound like the American West? The astronauts show up, claim "manifest destiny," and start rounding up the Martians and exploiting the natural resources. It's really a weird theme. Yes, yes and yes. The issues is not that TLC might offend aliens, but that they are systematically otherizing their villains. I understand why this is done and I'm generally okay, with it, but otherizations is a slippery slope. Back when we had human vs human conflict (for instance Aquanauts vs Aquasharks) the sides were pretty much equally matched. But as the villains have become less and less human, TLC has allowed the "good guys" to do things they would never dream of allowing if both sides were human. Mars mission is a perfect example of this. The humans in that theme are imperial invaders, they come and colonize a place, strip of its natural resources and exert their power over the local population. They round up the martians, perform experiments on them and use them to power their ships. That's twisted. I think the power Miners might be even worse though. In one set the power miners have enslaved a rock monster and are forcing it to help collect its food source for their own benefit. Now can you imagine how people would react if for example there was a set where the imperial soldiers were using enslaved islanders to build a fortress? It's one thing to otherize your villains, that's a time honored tradition, but to use it as a way to make it okay to have slavery and colonization? I think there's something problematic and dangerous about that. And I agree that kids will choose whatever side they want to be the "good side" and mix and match things and tell their own stories in which atrocities like slavery are common place. I still think TLC should be more careful about the messages it is sending about violence and power dynamics etc. All that being said, I think that TLC is actually doing a pretty good job dealing with these tricky issues in an incredibly competitive market. They have a very clear policy about how violence/conflict is portrayed in their themes. In their home grown play themes, the violence is always in a fantasy type setting, where the villains are monsters/aliens/non-human. In the licensed themes, they will portray violence (and race) they way the original source material does. That does not mean there are never human-human conflicts or human villains in the home grown play themes (e.g Pirates). And in the end, we got cool new parts and pieces. Quote
Huntleyfx Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Very well said; but I think there are a few more points to add: 1) When discussing the "good" humans versus the "bad" others in the castle line; we need to bear in mind that the stories of trolls and zombies are based upon literally thousands of years of folklore. Therefore, I think we can safely allow Lego off of the hook for the matter. 2) As for the good versus bad in Pirates, who is the good? Is it the Imperials, who are willing to do anything to get there way; or is it the pirates who murder and steal? Nothing in life is black and white, we learn this fact as we become older. Therefore, we will always be faced with difficulty when we apply adult sensibilities to a children's toy. Quote
Norro Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 I can't believe we're even having a discussion as to whether we should worry about being offensive to imaginary aliens...Steve =! Personally, like all heroic defenders of political correctness, I'm intolerant of intolerance. So there is no danger of Lego out-witting me... God Bless, Nathan Quote
Siegfried Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 I think TLG try to make simple stories and it's up to the kids to flesh them out. Kid targeted products often avoid shades of grey, even though in real life there aren't that many "evil" people; it often just different viewpoints. I don't see this simplification as offensive, I just see it as un-realistic! Howver I find other things offensive that others don't so I can't talk. (Besides, why should it be an alien side-kick; why not vice versa... ) Versus 5 female heads: Three of them are licensed; don't be blaming TLG for being sexist as it's the movies! Mars mission is a perfect example of this. The humans in that theme are imperial invaders, they come and colonize a place, strip of its natural resources and exert their power over the local population. They round up the martians, perform experiments on them and use them to power their ships. That's twisted. I'm not convinced the green-goo-guys are natives. I think the power Miners might be even worse though. In one set the power miners have enslaved a rock monster and are forcing it to help collect its food source for their own benefit. Well TLG seem to be portraying it all as defensive, but the story seems pretty vague at the moment so you could be right. To be honest I've never put much thought into the "stories". Most are rather lame! Quote
Sandy Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 You guys are silly. I don't think TLG has to worry about aliens suing them for being racist any time soon... As for the issue of things being "black & white", I need to repeat what I said in the History & Adventure forum when someone wondered why I put humans and trolls to live in peace in my photocomic: whatever the TLG produces is just for a reference, you can do whatever the heck you want with the pieces you get. So if you don't like that the aliens are villains, then don't play with them as villains. I'm sure we all have plenty of minifigs to substitute the aliens... Quote
Zarkan Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) I agree with everyone who said this topic was silly. Seriously, you guys are taking this "issue" of lego "racism" way too seriously. It's obvious that TLC is just trying to sell toys - not viewpoints - and the current way of doing their sets is not going to change if the kids don't want it to. Honestly, the mere fact that all the alien bad guys look ugly is a sign to me that TLC is not trying to imply anything. Whenever you see good aliens in movies or comics, they almost always look noble and somewhat humanlike. On the other hand, the bad aliens always look like monsters, which is lining up with how TLC is handling aliens. Now, if they started producing bad guy aliens that looked like blue skinned humans or something, I might be a bit worried - but I don't think that will ever happen. Come on guys, just stop worrying about this. This isn't a major deal at all, and I hardly think kids are going to be influenced to be racists through playing with kits that have imaginary butt-ugly aliens as the bad guys. Mars mission is a perfect example of this. The humans in that theme are imperial invaders, they come and colonize a place, strip of its natural resources and exert their power over the local population. They round up the martians, perform experiments on them and use them to power their ships. That's twisted. Wrong. The lego club magazine gave a summary of the storyline of Mars Mission back in 2007, and it clearly states that the ailens attacked first, NOT the humans. When the humans first come to Mars, their vehicles are simply mining and reasearch vehicles, and only after the aliens attack do they turn them into combat vehicles. Also, in the first online Mars Mission game, the aliens are revealed to be CANIBALS, who eat any humans that they capture (if you die in this game, you hear the aliens burping). It's clear to me that the aliens are the bad guys here, and the humans are simply defending themselves from harm. (fallentomato @ Feb 14 2009, 04:10 PM) I think the power Miners might be even worse though. In one set the power miners have enslaved a rock monster and are forcing it to help collect its food source for their own benefit. I think you're reading too far into this. Personally, when I saw that set, I was thinking that the rock monster was STEALING the crystals, not mining them for the humans. Besides, once again it's shown in the actual storyline that the humans never intended to be fighting against the rock monsters, but that it was necessary to in order to save the planet from shaking apart. Edited February 14, 2009 by Grevious Quote
Ricecracker Posted February 14, 2009 Posted February 14, 2009 Three of them are licensed; don't be blaming TLG for being sexist as it's the movies! Oh, I definitely agree with you, I was just pointing out facts Quote
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