Middle Ages vs Fantasy?

[Sandy]

Keeping only the old realistic in order to teach history is a non-sense for me.

First, children can make the difference between the real world and a story world.

Second, what we adult think is historic, is actually mostly not. I mean we have a representation of what castles, knights, soldiers, etc. were, but this representation is false at 70%. So if you want to teach your children about Middle-Age by making them playing with those sets you think are real, you're wrong. Let them play and imagine their stories!

I love the Fantasy Era to bits and pieces (pun intended), but I still totally agree with you on this point. Nobody can really call old sets like the Black Falcons and Forestmen sets (let alone the fabled yellow castle) historic, since the sets are based on romantic stories of valiant knights and merry bandits that were popular a few hundred years ago, not real medieval lifestyle. They are, of course, more realistic than Fantasy Era sets, but still not historically accurate.

But I don't think these two directions of Castle are mutually exclusive. You can easily take the fantasy elements off the new sets and on the other hand incorporate them to old sets. That's the best side of LEGO - it can be whatever you wish it to be.

[Bazziman]

Guys,

I have to fess up....I just ordered 4 battle packs of crownies and 4 battle packs of skellies, 10 trolls wariors and 10 knights armories AND the castle Christmas set...in other words: my 35 BF soldiers have two armies to deal with that are almost the same size as theirs.

I'm afraid leaving my 'dark ages' has thrown me in a new addiction....

[gladiator]

Hi, I am 33 years old, I just started LAST YEAR in Lego, especially in castle theme.

To be honest, I didn't have any childhood memory of Lego. Then I cant compare which are better between fantasy era or middle ages before or after buy these Fantasy era sets.

I really love fantasy era theme, because I am big fan of LOTR, and all of minifigs are beautiful, excellent and really good looking

After I know bricklink deeply, I think minifigs fantasy era are the best. Metallic silver helmet, armor.... in next coming years will be expensive. But, if we compare the design, oh yes... Middle ages rules !

my scores :

minifigs fantasy era : 9,5/10

minifigs middle ages : 7/10

set design fantasy era : 7/10

set design middle ages : 9/10

Edited March 13, 2009 by gladiator

[Cavannus]

I was born in 1975 so when I saw the new grey Castle line in 1984, I loved it immediately! I stopped loving Castle sets around 1986 (keeping an interest in Space and City) that means that I've always preferred the non-fantasy sets. And when I saw some fantasy sets in a shop, I always thought there were definitely ugly and irrelevant compared with "my" serious Middle-Age sets. Furthermore in France the Castle line was called "Middle-Age" ("Lego Moyen-Âge") so maybe this made me believe that it should have been realistic and not fantastic.

About Space:

Now as an adult I like the first 1978-79's Classic Space sets because they represent a realistic conquest of space (let's remember that in 1980, we were supposed to reach Mars or to build lunar bases within the next 20 years), but as a child I didn't care about this and I liked all the new sets that came after.

That's why I wrote that Lego is a toy; the designers are right when they design for the kids before all -- even if that doesn't match our Afols' expectations

[blueandwhite]

While I have always had a preference for the more conventional castle sets of the 80s, I certainly understand the overwhelming appeal of the fantasy line. LEGO has been pretty savy when it comes to reading the interests of young builders. The reality is that LEGO has done an admirable job of catoring to both camps with its current castle line. For persons like myself the Crownies and the Market Village provide traditional medieval fare, complete with peasants and armoured knights. On the other hand, fantasy fans have a rich selection of dwarves, orks, and skeletons to choose from. While I would personally prefer a line devoid of any fantasy elements, I am very greatful for the current line. The Crown Knights are probably the most diverse and interesting faction to be produced since the mid 80s.

That being said; I'm hoping that LEGO doesn't do elves next year. For me the current castle line is already quite fantasy-heavy and I really don't have alot interest in those types of sets. A line of elves would undoubtedly mean that we would see even fewer human figs as we already have skeletons, orks, and dwarves in the mix. I understand that many folk are looking for faerie folk, but such a move would only push me further away from the castle theme. If anything, I'm hoping for a resurrection of the forestmen theme with a wider variety of outlaws and bandits.

[Batbrick]

Guys,

I have to fess up....I just ordered 4 battle packs of crownies and 4 battle packs of skellies, 10 trolls wariors and 10 knights armories AND the castle Christmas set...in other words: my 35 BF soldiers have two armies to deal with that are almost the same size as theirs.

I'm afraid leaving my 'dark ages' has thrown me in a new addiction....

He has tuuuuurned! Muhahaha!

To be honest though, after this fantasy castle theme is done, I'd welcome back the more "realistic" style, as long as we got Forestmen. In my opinion it's all good.

Batbrick Away!

[m'kheyl]

I agree 100% with Blueandwhite, the current line is very good for both "types" of castle fans. Personnally I just avoid the "pure Fantasy" sets and I'm fine with the more "classic" ones. It's good to see that Forestmen are so popular, I'd love to see them back too. I have the MMP (still not opened) and I'm waiting better finances to get King's Castle Siege, and I think Forestmen (and women) would be perfect opponents for my new knights

[Sandy]

I have a question for all of you forestmen-fans: if there was a new faction added next year featuring minifigs in green clothes living in a forest and using bows as weapons, but they were called "elves" instead of "forestmen", would you still buy them?

Because frankly, I don't see much difference. Sure, the minifigs would have more details to them, and the forest might have some strange stuff such as talking trees, but I think the original Forestmen was really close to forest-dwelling elves in the first place. But what do you guys think?

[Zorro]

I have a question for all of you forestmen-fans: if there was a new faction added next year featuring minifigs in green clothes living in a forest and using bows as weapons, but they were called "elves" instead of "forestmen", would you still buy them?

Because frankly, I don't see much difference. Sure, the minifigs would have more details to them, and the forest might have some strange stuff such as talking trees, but I think the original Forestmen was really close to forest-dwelling elves in the first place. But what do you guys think?

As a forestmen and Classic Castle fan, I say yes.

I like the concept of Forest Elves and would love to see it added to the already quite LOTR-like range of current products.

[m'kheyl]

Well I wouldn't mind if it is not too obvious, that is if the minifigs don't have heads with huge molded ears or things like that. So if there's a new Elves line with well done sets that look half way fantasy/classic, I would definitely buy it.

The classic Forestmen sets have become pretty hard to come by, and although they're still great their age is kind of showing. And I'd love brown trees instead of black

[Bazziman]

Well I wouldn't mind if it is not too obvious, that is if the minifigs don't have heads with huge molded ears or things like that. So if there's a new Elves line with well done sets that look half way fantasy/classic, I would definitely buy it.

The classic Forestmen sets have become pretty hard to come by, and although they're still great their age is kind of showing. And I'd love brown trees instead of black

Speaking of which: I just finished building the Tree Hide out (the small one with the two minifigs) that I got for a decent second hand price. It was a very nice little project (took me about an hour or so). I noticed the bricks made a very different sound than the new bricks I got with the 20 boxes of Trolls & Knights (I got a bunch of the impulse packs for army building purposes...battle packs are also on the way)...the new ones were kind of 'bendy' and felt soft...a bit weird to this old-skool-grey-castle-builder.

The details on the new minifigs are great though (the weapons were a bit to rubbery for my taste though, compared to the old skool hard plastic ones). I think I am going to upgrade my 'great' Black Falcon Army so it will be slightly more modern looking (perhaps a bunch of custom ovoid shields for the spear men?)

A new forest faction would certainly grab my attention...with long bows and capes and stuff. I don't care if you call them Elves or Woodsmen or Men-in-tight....

Edited March 17, 2009 by Bazziman

[Martijn]

Keeping only the old realistic in order to teach history is a non-sense for me.

First, children can make the difference between the real world and a story world.

Second, what we adult think is historic, is actually mostly not. I mean we have a representation of what castles, knights, soldiers, etc. were, but this representation is false at 70%. So if you want to teach your children about Middle-Age by making them playing with those sets you think are real, you're wrong. Let them play and imagine their stories!

Yeah, let them play and imagine their stories! But why wouldn't you be able to that with educational toys?

While your 70% false is probably accurate when you're talking about sets from the last 10 years, the first Castle sets (late '70s and early '80s) were pretty good. Sure, many real historical castles were either much bigger or much more primitive, and of course the ratio of mounted knights to peasants is all wrong (because it focuses on the romantic aspects of chivalry), but about the sets themselves, there's nothing really fundamentally wrong (the fortified inn was particularly good! not everything is a castle), as opposed to the stuff from the late '90s, which had very little to do with the middle ages at all.

Don't forget: Lego is a toy before all, so it does make sense to get the same things as other toys including unrealistic features.

But it's not necessary. Or even sensible, for that matter. Yes, it's a toy, but Lego has always been an educational toy. And those are in my opinion the best ones. And the big molded pieces that can be used in only one way go against that idea. Sure, it looks nice, but lacks the creative versatility that lego traditionally has. Saying "others are making cheap crap too" is a lousy excuse.

I think the Forestmen look like old movies' Robin Hood (in green tights) rather than real rebels, but they haven't been a fantastic line either.

Nothing wrong with a Robin Hood line, though (wait, did we just switch positions there?). Great opportunity for adventure, and not entirely unrealistic either (depending on which interpretation you're going for).

In fact, I'd love it if TLC were to make a Robin Hood line, with one big, detailed Nottingham Castle set (which is fully compatible with any other Castle stuff of course).

How about:

• Nottingham Castle - big, details $99 or more
  
• Robin Hood's hideout - a cave, a tree, some bushes, Robin Hood and some of his men
  
• Ambush - some bushes, a tree, a cart, and some outlaws
  
• Nottingham town houses - a bit like the market village, but smaller
  
• Peasant village - huts, pigs, peasants
  
• Smaller sets with more outlaws, peasants and men at arms
  

I think it'd sell like wildfire.

What I'd like even more is a castle design contest where TLC gives us a budget in how many bricks we're allowed to use, and whichever castle is best (in terms of beauty, detail, realism, but also whether a kid would be able to build it and play with it) gets to be the center piece of a new Lego Castle line.

[blueandwhite]

I have a question for all of you forestmen-fans: if there was a new faction added next year featuring minifigs in green clothes living in a forest and using bows as weapons, but they were called "elves" instead of "forestmen", would you still buy them?

Because frankly, I don't see much difference. Sure, the minifigs would have more details to them, and the forest might have some strange stuff such as talking trees, but I think the original Forestmen was really close to forest-dwelling elves in the first place. But what do you guys think?

For the sake of interest, let's turn this question around. Would you purchase a new forestmen theme if they were living in a forest, and using bows as weapons?

In all seriousness, I think it would depend on the nature of the line. I could easily see an "elf" line becoming far too exotic for the non-fantasy fan. For me, the orks and skeletons are too exotic whilethe dwarves have many useful bits. My biggest concern with an elf line is that the figs would be too LOTR, with exotic heads and torsos that have patterns that are simply too fantastical to be considered conventional medieval fare. Also; call me nostalgic but I'd love to see the return of the forestmen's cap in dark red and dark green. I think it has to be one of the coolest hats LEGO ever produced and I would really like to see its return. In a Robin Hood/Forestmen themed line I definitely could envision the return of this piece, however I doubt we'd see any of these caps with a line of elves.

I understand that there are some really hardcore fantasy fans out there, but I still feel that LEGO needs to tread carefully to balance the interests of both sides. Right now fantasy fans are riding high with three distinct factions (75% of the current castle line is fantasy based), whereas those of us who have an interest in a non-fantasy castle theme have but a single faction. My concern is that an elf line would tip the scales even further away from my interests to a point were it becomes prohibitive to invest in castle sets. By keeping things balanced, LEGO ensures sales on both sides of the fence.

[Cavannus]

While your 70% false is probably accurate when you're talking about sets from the last 10 years, the first Castle sets (late '70s and early '80s) were pretty good. [...]

I agree with you about the 70-80's buildings: they respect the overall shape (and it's funny to notice that the round towers came later in the Lego line as they do in history). Actually I meant that people who think that the early sets are 100% realistic are wrong: they follow our common representation of Middle-Age rather than historians' knowledge.

Yes, it's a toy, but Lego has always been an educational toy. And those are in my opinion the best ones. And the big molded pieces that can be used in only one way go against that idea. Sure, it looks nice, but lacks the creative versatility that lego traditionally has. Saying "others are making cheap crap too" is a lousy excuse.

I forgot the education side that Lego itself tries to promote! However I wanted to tell people who want their children to play as they did 30 years ago, that today's hot games don't look like the ones that were hot when we were young.

Anyway I'm against the "cheap crap" too and I'm really happy to see that Lego has increased the quality again for a couple of years.

Nothing wrong with a Robin Hood line, though (wait, did we just switch positions there?). Great opportunity for adventure, and not entirely unrealistic either (depending on which interpretation you're going for).

"Not entirely unrealistic either" --> That's what I meant (but not entirely realistic either: they just need other colours and simpler shield designs to look like medieval rebels)

What I'd like even more is a castle design contest where TLC gives us a budget in how many bricks we're allowed to use, and whichever castle is best (in terms of beauty, detail, realism, but also whether a kid would be able to build it and play with it) gets to be the center piece of a new Lego Castle line.

[Teddy]

I agree with Blueandwhite,

I've written something in a different topic, but i guess it is more appropriate here:

Dear all,

I just wanted to enter the discussion.

I'm relatively happy with the current castle line.

The minifigs are great and the sets contain a lot of usefull parts.

I've actually bought all but one set of the entire new castle line up untill now.

I'm not a big fan of fantasy, so I took all the trolls, dragons, skelletons, and wizzards and stored them in a seperate plastic container somewhere.

The dwarfs mine I consider to be "fun" and put it on a shelf for all to see.

The medieval market village is fantastic, in my humble opinion, so that is on a more prominent shelf.

Of the other sets I used the parts for my own MOCs. Or stacked them as parts in my brick store containers.

As far as they are design wise. I think they are great if you are into fantasy.

Since I'm not I don't fancy them that much and use them as usefull parts packs.

The only thing missing as far as i am conserned is an other human knight faction.

As far as Klaus-Dieter's ideas. I can only agree with him.

I've had simular ideas for a long time and that was what inspired me to make my own modular castle.

I wanted to see if it could work and what the challenges would be.

If Lego desides to market something similar, I'm sure I will buy them as long as my Lego budget permits.

Kind regards,

Teddy

So, to enter this discussion.

I would buy elves sets either:

-if the sets contain usefull parts at a reasonable price

-if the elves themself can be turned into a human faction.

-if the elves have usefull torsos or other usefull accessories

But I think I would not buy multiple copies of a set of them.

If it would give another knight faction I would buy multiple copies.

But that is just me and my two cents.

Kind regards,

Teddy

[Martijn]

"Not entirely unrealistic either" --> That's what I meant (but not entirely realistic either: they just need other colours and simpler shield designs to look like medieval rebels)

I'm very much in favour of neutral shields with only a single colour. As a kid, I loved the round coat-of-arms-less shield from the Supply Cart. I want more shields that look like they're just a piece of wood or leather with no special decoration.

As for the elves & forestmen debate, I think the idea of elves that can be turned into forestmen, or forestmen that can be turned into elves, is really great. I think the only real difference is their hats or hair. Forestmen have those Robin Hood caps, whereas elves should probably have some blonde elvish hair or something. Forest elves, anyway. Tolkienisque elven warriors should probably wear scale armour and a really high helmet in an unusual shape.

A set with two different kinds of hats would be perfect. Alternatively: some big forestmen sets (or elves, depending on which way TLC decides), and a small set with elvish minifigs (or forestmen, depending on which way TLC decides) with a double set of hats, so you can turn all your existing forestmen (or elves) into elves (or forestmen).

[Capt. Redblade]

I remember playing with toys of a similar brand-that-shall-not-be-named when I was young. It had opposing human factions and I got a kick out of that. But, then again, I do enjoy fantasy novels in the vein of Eragon and Inkheart, so I'm not sure where I stand. I'm happy with the current line, (VERY happy, in fact) but I would still like to see more realistic toys like that brand-that-shall-not-be-named.

[alex12]

I love the forestmen i think they are awesome. I have most of the sets.

They are fantasy , not as much as skeletons and orcs , but fantasy none the less.

I seem to remember that after forestmen came wizards , dragons , ghost as Lego expanded on the theme.

Since then most castle has been fantasy. Lets be honest its never been that realistic .

I love castle in all its forms .

Always have always will.

[gormadoc]

Too be honest I dont mind whichever but lego could incorporate another faction, and to make sure they are not similar, TLG could bring in vikings to the castle theme, because vikings fort anglo-saxons and established trade with a ot of medieval country's.

[chongcheng]

The old days where I owned the Black Monarch Castle and the Black Falcons - it was always about different fractions. Sometimes I even have a hard time finding the bad guys as a kid. They had the same face back then; there is only one face until the pirates came out as far as I can remember.

I love those fantasy build - if I had them in the past, it would be really fun. Bad guys got to look bad...of course that in itself is fantasy (These days, bad guys can look better than the good guys). The first one that came out was perhaps the ghost figure? And it added on, only sadly I grown up and had not much time for toys. Even in computer games, how realistic is the best selling Diablo and Warcraft series?

I got to agree though, as an adult, I would really love those medieval castles built with elaborate details - hope that LEGO one day may come out with something like that and I think if medieval village take 1601 pieces; a realistic castle might take easily 100 times as many pieces to make, just check those elaborate MOCs.

As educational as LEGO maybe...I think whether it follow realism or not isn't too important. But I won't mind a Mongolian theme to make my medieval experience more complete.

[fenris]

hi Martijn,

100% agreed, exactly my feelings about that... exactly the same story for me.... i even had the same castle and the same feelings about the wall parts

[Abaddon127]

I myself, absolutely LOVE the current fantasy-era CASTLE line.

What I would like to see would be a forestmen-style faction.

I could easily convert redone forestmen into elves.

That would be a really good use for my otherwise unused peachies.

[Lord Admiral]

The current fantasy line has its place, without a doubt. I enjoy it. At the same time though, the success of Medieval Market Village shows that there is also a high demand for real medieval sets. And that's the truth of the matter. There's nothing wrong with a fantasy theme. It's not a castle theme though, and with the exception of the knights faction, it really doesn't belong to be labeled as "Castle." IMHO, the true castle theme died a long time ago. The new theme is not a bad thing, like I said, but it's not the old castle theme either.

I don't like the new castles. I think they're ridiculous. The new wall parts are just cheap and the "play" of the set feels like a whole bunch of fluff stuffed into a large box that doesn't seem to quite fit it; if you're not careful, the box will explode, sending fluff flying in every direction. It's why I've bought the smaller sets mostly; I don't have any of the large castle sets from this current incarnation of the theme, my largest one being the dwarves' mine (MMV doesn't count). Actually, I really enjoy dwarves' mine, particularly because it doesn't have nearly as much fluff as some of the large castles do. It's quaint. I can't really say the same for the other sets, even some of the smaller ones.

[blueandwhite]

The current fantasy line has its place, without a doubt. I enjoy it. At the same time though, the success of Medieval Market Village shows that there is also a high demand for real medieval sets. And that's the truth of the matter. There's nothing wrong with a fantasy theme. It's not a castle theme though, and with the exception of the knights faction, it really doesn't belong to be labeled as "Castle." IMHO, the true castle theme died a long time ago. The new theme is not a bad thing, like I said, but it's not the old castle theme either.

I don't like the new castles. I think they're ridiculous. The new wall parts are just cheap and the "play" of the set feels like a whole bunch of fluff stuffed into a large box that doesn't seem to quite fit it; if you're not careful, the box will explode, sending fluff flying in every direction. It's why I've bought the smaller sets mostly; I don't have any of the large castle sets from this current incarnation of the theme, my largest one being the dwarves' mine (MMV doesn't count). Actually, I really enjoy dwarves' mine, particularly because it doesn't have nearly as much fluff as some of the large castles do. It's quaint. I can't really say the same for the other sets, even some of the smaller ones.

I'm a huge fan of the MMV, but I wonder how well this Shop@Home exclusive would do with younger children. I think that villagers certainly have a place within the Castle theme, however even I can accept that the Market Village was a set that wasn't really built with LEGO's young audience in mind. I don't like most of the new fantasy line either, but I appreciate that themes like this are quite popular with children. At the end of the day, I would rather have some conventional medieval fare mixed in with the fantasy stuff (which I do not care for) than no castle at all.

I hope that Castle continues into the future, but I very much doubt we will see another castle line without a fairly heavy emphasis on fantasy folk and fantastic creatures. As long as the line provides me with enough human minifigs and parts I'll remain reasonably content. The MMV is already more than I could have ever hoped for as an AFOL.

[Lord Admiral]

I'm a huge fan of the MMV, but I wonder how well this Shop@Home exclusive would do with younger children. I think that villagers certainly have a place within the Castle theme, however even I can accept that the Market Village was a set that wasn't really built with LEGO's young audience in mind. I don't like most of the new fantasy line either, but I appreciate that themes like this are quite popular with children. At the end of the day, I would rather have some conventional medieval fare mixed in with the fantasy stuff (which I do not care for) than no castle at all.

I hope that Castle continues into the future, but I very much doubt we will see another castle line without a fairly heavy emphasis on fantasy folk and fantastic creatures. As long as the line provides me with enough human minifigs and parts I'll remain reasonably content. The MMV is already more than I could have ever hoped for as an AFOL.

MMV is definitely not a set for children. Sure kids interested in building would have a great time putting it together and thoroughly enjoy playing with it, but it doesn't quite have the instant appeal of something that has action right on the box. Besides AFOLs, MMV is most appropriate for TFOLs, and would only seriously appeal to the more creative children. Since there's a social stigma associated with playing with bricks after a certain age, MMV and other AFOL-oriented sets may be a good way to keep teenagers interested, and to maintain teenage mindshare until they get older and turn into full-blown AFOLs. Considering the small market and the risks involved, I can understand why such sets are rare if at all present, and I'm extremely grateful to have MMV at all, but what I can't understand is why action sets have to be <insert that tiresome argument>, why the philosophy behind MMV, which is attention to detail while or in spite of being modest, can't be extended to the smaller sets. Again, dwarves' mine is one of those that stands out as an example. It has a lot of stuff going on, but it doesn't feel like anything was purposefully put there to increase the perceived "value" of the set while the real meat got cut to make up for the fluff. Why does every set have to have a drawbridge, or be some kind of all-encompassing fortress that's been very obviously vastly simplified for cost reasons.

For example, it would make me very happy if they came out with a wall set. Just a very high wall, with some archers on top, and some bad guys on the bottom. Maybe a ladder and some rope. Put it out for 25 bucks as a battle pack on steroids. And then have a gate set that would fit with said wall, perhaps with a battering ram below. There could even be multiple instructions for building the wall, so it's worthwhile to buy a few walls and turn it into a garrison. Modularity has been present in sets for a while, so I don't understand why more lines aren't taking advantage of this like the modular town, albeit at a smaller scale.

I'm doubtful that we'll get a non-fantastical theme in the future, or that we'll get something like a plain, bland wall. Since I don't mind the fantasy elements, it doesn't terribly bother me that the focus of the theme isn't on castles anymore, so long as the sets are designed and done well. But as that appears to be difficult (the ratio of hits to misses in my book is a little on the low side), I have to wonder if going back to human factions would make things easier all around. It's almost as easy as just switching the color theme and changing the architectural motif a bit. Do it a few times, and suddenly, it's not two factions, but four or five now. It wouldn't upset me if that's the new direction, though I would be a little sad if I don't get to see some of these mythical elves that I've been waiting on for some time now.