Plagarism

[Lasse D]

Why would you add a petition you already have an ambassador on the case?

It's an old issue, but I suppose it shouldn't be too difficult to implement a report function.

[Matn]

Well, this sucks. I don't really know why a kid would want to make plagiarism, but it sucks. I hate it. Using techniques of other isn't bad at all, it's just normal. But copying the whole creation, the whole picture? No thanks. I would kick them off LEGO's website, but it's normal they don't have everything under control. I mean, who would think a kid would copy someone's pictures and say it's them?!

I think it's time for use to make use of those watermarkings.

[Ralph_S]

I really don't understand why people do this sort of thing. What sort of enjoyment can you get out of getting credit for something you haven't actually done yourself? I'm not going to do anything until I hear from LEGO again, either in response to my 2nd email to customer service (which I don't expect to get before Monday) or through our ambassador.

Cheers,

Ralph

[bugefun]

I agree with everybody else, it´s sucks Big Time default_angry.gif!

Comments like this:

Lego Copter

Stolen picture. Original by Mad Physicist, http://www.flickr.com/photos/madphysicist/2301189301

CopMike

LEGO Ambassador

posted on all of Ralph S Moc´s in LEGO Universe and post made in the Ambassador forum on the issue.

CopMike

The problem is that LEGO Universe will block comments that have links in them. (At least if the moderator is paying attention but we have seen that they don't sometimes.)

[Lasse D]

I really don't understand why people do this sort of thing.

Children who want to impress each other. They find the best aircrafts on the net, copy the pictures and say they made them. The other children don't know what is going on and give a lot of praise. Praise leads to wanting for more and on we go.

Add prices to these challenges and it's inevitable.

You should feel flattered... if it wasn't for the children claiming your models to be theirs

BTW. I just took a look through some pages there. What a terrible site! Huge flash animations and the actual content moved to the bottom

Launch Adblock+!

Edited April 18, 2009 by Lasse D

[Peppermint_M]

Plagarism is very annoying but a Report Fraud button could be abused badly, just think, someone builds a model that is very good and someone else gets jealous, thus they report a fraud, hassling some poor kid who did nothing wrong. A system similar to deviant art would be good.

[Ralph_S]

Children who want to impress each other. They find the best aircrafts on the net, copy the pictures and say they made them. The other children don't know what is going on and give a lot of praise. Praise leads to wanting for more and on we go.

Add prices to these challenges and it's inevitable.

You should feel flattered... if it wasn't for the children claiming your models to be theirs

They do say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

I still don't get what anybody gets out of being praised for something they didn't actually do. I can understand students committing plagiarism in hopes of getting a decent grade without having to do the work, but what's the incentive here? Praise? That doesn't make sense to me, because being praised for something I didn't actually do would make me feel guilty rather than good. If LEGO indeed hand out prizes, it's a different matter.

BTW. I just took a look through some pages there. What a terrible site! Huge flash animations and the actual content moved to the bottom

Launch Adblock+!

I know. It's pretty horrific. It makes one appreciate the old-fashioned simplicity of brickshelf.

Cheers,

Ralph

[xenologer]

...being praised for something I didn't actually do would make me feel guilty rather than good.

Have to keep in mind that a child hasn't fully developed the same sense of morals an AFOL would have. Praise even if not deserved would feel good for a kid.

With that in mind, as a AFOL myself I probably wouldn't feel any more than a mild sense of bemusement were one of my photos be copied into a silly kid's section creation folder.

[Ralph_S]

Have to keep in mind that a child hasn't fully developed the same sense of morals an AFOL would have. Praise even if not deserved would feel good for a kid.

With that in mind, as a AFOL myself I probably wouldn't feel any more than a mild sense of bemusement were one of my photos be copied into a silly kid's section creation folder.

I don't feel a mild sense of bemusement.

I know there are a lot of people who will say something along the lines that they're just kids and this is just the internet, but IMO plagiarism undermines something that we all value -openly sharing pictures of our MOCs through the internet. I'm pretty sure these kids know that what they're doing really isn't right, even if it does make them feel good.

Cheers,

Ralph

[Seth]

That is why you water-mark photos.

It usually happens with people with lots of talent like Sir Nadroj or countblockula

[Ralph_S]

That is why you water-mark photos.

It usually happens with people with lots of talent like Sir Nadroj or countblockula

Well, I suppose I should take that as a compliment then, because it keeps happening to me too.

I can't go watermarking all the pictures I already have on line and I don't think it stops people from copying pictures either, with the watermark and everything. The only thing it might do is make it easier to recognise who the pictures belong to. Any sort of discussion about plagiarism always ends up this way. People start to gloze over plagiarism and then start pointing a finger at the person whose work is being plagiarised.

Have you taken a look at the challenges page at LEGO Universe? If not, I suggest you do. You'll see that just about anything on there that isn't clearly built by children is a copy of somebody else's work. Plagiarism is endemic there and IMO LEGO should do something about it.

Cheers,

Ralph

[diabloiij]

i hope to see one day people are copying my work, that means people love my work so much they wish it is their own. Don't mind the copy cats, they can't make the next brilliant MOC but YOU CAN!!!

[Peppermint_M]

Watermarking seems to be the solution. Design a logo or just write your name across the middle. It wont affect the picture too badly and will stop anyone copying it without giving credit (the ones on the edge can be easily cropped out so make sure some of it is on the MOC).

[Ralph_S]

Watermarking doesn't work. At most it can serve as a deterrent, but there are plenty of people who don't hesitate to copy pictures with the watermark still on it .

Here are a few watermarked pictures that obviously don't belong to the person who posted them:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23973567@N04/3374542814/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23973567@N04/3374518588/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23973567@N04/3373701445/

on flickr no less. I also hope you don't honestly expect me to manually watermark and replace the thousands of pictures I've uploaded over the last four years.

In my opinion the most effective way of dealing with plagiarism is that we as a community agree that it is not acceptable and report it if we see it.

This whole attitude of "you should be flattered", "they're only kids", or "this is the internet, and this is normal" is part of what keeps it going. Users shouldn't think that they can get away with it. Flickr, MOCPages and brickshelf have systems for reporting plagiarism in place, the first one through 'report abuse' and on the two others you can email the admin and the copies will be removed very quickly. On flickr and MOCpages, if a user does it again, their accounts are removed. MOCPages has really improved in the last months, because many users themselves are keeping an eye out for plagiarism and report it if and when it happens. I've been told that MOCs of mine have been copied there as well recently, but by the time that I was told about it the copies had already been removed.

Most of my newer pictures are hosted only on flickr, where I can restrict who can download them to people that I know. On brickshelf I only post low resolution pictures. Most of my newer pictures on MOCpages aren't actually hosted there, but on flickr instead. It isn't 100% watertight, because if you can see something there's always a way of copying it, but it does throw up a barrier. I'm fairly certain that those pictures of mine that have appeared on Lego Universe have been downloaded from MOCPages or brickshelf. The only thing that I can do to prevent this is to simply not host anything there. I would consider that a loss.

On LEGO universe you can report plagiarism through customer service, but they're not really equipped to deal with it. That site simply has a problem. It's a commercial activity hosting content of which the copyright is owned by a third party. I hope that the ambassador program and my latest e-mail to LEGO can get them to do something about it.

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited April 19, 2009 by Ralph_S

[Eilif]

Interesting discussion here. If I may address a couple of points.

Attention getting:

I've worked with kids a bit, and I have no problem understanding why they would take credit for work that is not their own. Kids like attention, deserved or not, positive or not. Its similar to the class clown who knows that he will be punished, but is willing to act out to get attention (even negative attention). These kids get undeserved attention and positive things written about them and it feels good to them, even if they didn't make the MOC.

Being Flattered?

As for being flattered that a kid would steal your picture. Sorry, but that's baloney. This is not imitation, this is stealing. If that kid was a guest in your house and stole one of your MOCs, you wouldn't be flattered, you'd take the MOC back, give the kid 30 minutes in the corner, and then tell his parents, who (if they are responsible) would do the same thing, hopefully with the addition of a spanking. And here's the most important part, it's in the kid's best interest. The sooner kids learn to be honest, the better, if they get away with it on the internet, it will appear in their "real" life. better for them to get a chastisement and some scorn now, rather than letting it develop into a lifetime habit.

Ralph,

Excellent summation of the legal side of the problem. I hadn't thought of it in terms of a commercial site hosting unauthorized third part info, but you're absolutely right. A "report" button with an attached form and place for a link to the original would be a great way to handle this situation.

[Toa of Whimsy]

A system similar to devian tart would be good.

There is a lot of art theft and tracing on DA which is left ignored. That system isn't too good on it's own, also kids who make poor MoCs will be able to, like on DevianTART, hide any comments from others that tell them that their MoCs aren't very good and thus they will fail to grow.

What would be better is a system like DevianTART but the mods are more active and not... err... soft.

[ILikePi]

... I don't think it stops people from copying pictures either, with the watermark and everything.

Well, since many "little kids" steal pictures from AFOL creations, the kids won't know how to remove the watermark, and everyone will see the real creator's name on the stolen picture.

Lets see what the kid who stole the Iron Man custom minifig picture wrote:

Description of the creation:

This is my very own custom made iron man dude. He has all his body armor on and is flying with his clear rocket boots!!!

A comment he made:

Hi. As loumanchew said i copied it, i didn't. I was the original creator of it and then a posted at on stuff like this, google and ask.com, etc. I used old parts but then just painted it to make it a little bit more detailed.

1) You can see that he doesn't know how it was made. They are decals, but he says that "he painted it".

2) He said that he "was the original creator of it and then a posted at on stuff like this, google and ask.com, etc." He doesn't even know that Google and Ask.com are search engines, not places where you post pictures.

3) He uses almost no grammar and can't spell.

Edited April 19, 2009 by ILikePi

[The Bricksmith]

Ralph S is I feel correct on all that he has said. There is no excuse what so ever on stealing. Just because the internet makes it easier to do something does not make it right. For a long time on many many sites the code has always been "give credit where credit is due." It is one thing to take a building technique and make your own MOC with it but it is another to take someone else work and pawn it off as your own. It seems we are trying to shift the blame from the thief to the builder here for not water marking their work. Why are we blaming them? Yes we can all understand why maybe a kid would do this we were all kids once but that does not excuse this practice of plagiarism. As a community we need to stand together and try to stop this problem with the help of the Ambassadors and TLC, not drive excellent builders to stop showing their work.

[Skinny Boy]

Bring back corporal punishment. Maybe not in schools, but in some way, for the Internet :skull:

[Cyclone Titan]

I STRONGLY disapprove of stealing others work and marking it off as your own. It gets nothing done in my mind, just comments for something you did not do, so in actuality, the creator of the REAL MOC is getting the praise, even though said MOC thief thinks he is. It's just very stupid. If I were to plagiarize (I'm not saying I would, in fact, I wouldn't at all), I would at least make the stolen MOC closer to my own skill level. There's an easy way to spot plagiarists, though, if the MOC is the level of SirNadroj, Aliencat, or Rocko (to name a few), and the 'creator' is horribly bad-grammared, chances are, he plagiarized the MOC.

CT

[Ralph_S]

Well, since many "little kids" steal pictures from AFOL creations, the kids won't know how to remove the watermark, and everyone will see the real creator's name on the stolen picture.

And what would be the point of that? What is to keep them from claiming that it is their real name (just about everybody uses an alias anyway) or that they have the original creator's permission to copy the picture? Don't say it doesn't happen. I've had a kid on MOCpages tell me that he had the builder's permission to copy a particular picture, seemingly oblivious to the fact that I was the builder in question.

Lets see what the kid who stole the Iron Man custom minifig picture wrote:

1) You can see that he doesn't know how it was made. They are decals, but he says that "he painted it".

2) He said that he "was the original creator of it and then a posted at on stuff like this, google and ask.com, etc." He doesn't even know that Google and Ask.com are search engines, not places where you post pictures.

3) He uses almost no grammar and can't spell.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the kids who have copied my pictures don't know what they're talking about either and are unlikely to be the builders of the models in question.

The person who first posted the B-1 wrote that it took him and four friends three hours to build, which struck me as very funny, because it took me at least 80 hours spread out over four weeks -excluding the time spent on planning for it and sourcing the parts. His 'future pirates' is the admiral's launch of Lego Monster's HMS Hood, BTW. He does know how to pick them.

Another one calls the Hawkeye a 'lego plane car' and writes this as the caption: 'its a plane that is a car two'. One of the people who commented on it seems to suspect there is something fishy going on as well, because he writes:

"I'm very sorry to type this.. But this is not a car. I forget the exact number given to this radar aircraft.. I can indeed say this is not a car. I've also seen this elsewhere. Can you add more pictures of it, or tell us more about the aircraft? Please."

All of this makes me wonder whether moderation is limited to making sure that there is no swearing or name-calling and whether there actually even is a person who moderates the content.

Thanks Bricksmith and Cyclone Titan.

Skinny boy, I'd already be happy if they were to add a way of reporting plagiarism and perhaps moderate the content better.

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited April 19, 2009 by Ralph_S

[Darth Legolas]

And what would be the point of that? What is to keep them from claiming that it is their real name (just about everybody uses an alias anyway) or that they have the original creator's permission to copy the picture? Don't say it doesn't happen. I've had a kid on MOCpages tell me that he had the builder's permission to copy a particular picture, seemingly oblivious to the fact that I was the builder in question.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the kids who have copied my pictures don't know what they're talking about either and are unlikely to be the builders of the models in question.

The person who first posted the B-1 wrote that it took him and four friends three hours to build, which struck me as very funny, because it took me at least 80 hours spread out over four weeks -excluding the time spent on planning for it and sourcing the parts. His 'future pirates' is the admiral's launch of Lego Monster's HMS Hood, BTW. He does know how to pick them.

Another one calls the Hawkeye a 'lego plane car' and writes this as the caption: 'its a plane that is a car two'. One of the people who commented on it seems to suspect there is something fishy going on as well, because he writes:

"I'm very sorry to type this.. But this is not a car. I forget the exact number given to this radar aircraft.. I can indeed say this is not a car. I've also seen this elsewhere. Can you add more pictures of it, or tell us more about the aircraft? Please."

All of this makes me wonder whether moderation is limited to making sure that there is no swearing or name-calling and whether there actually even is a person who moderates the content.

Thanks Bricksmith and Cyclone Titan.

Skinny boy, I'd already be happy if they were to add a way of reporting plagiarism and perhaps moderate the content better.

Cheers,

Ralph

I feel really sorry for you. Dang, people like to rip you off. I think I'll get an account just to back you up on that Hawkeye, because this kid is a brat.

[Ralph_S]

I feel really sorry for you. Dang, people like to rip you off. I think I'll get an account just to back you up on that Hawkeye, because this kid is a brat.

You don't have to feel sorry for me, although I am a bit ticked off, mainly by some people's attitude that this sort of thing is OK or that I myself am somehow responsible. I'm surprised nobody has asked me yet whether I've ever used illegal software, in an attempt to show that I am equally guilty of copyright infringement. The only thing that I can do to make sure that my pictures aren't copied is take all of them off line.

BTW, if you've ever bought anything through shop@home, you've already got an account.

Ralph

Edited April 19, 2009 by Ralph_S

[Peppermint_M]

Design a logo. Make it prominent, put it everywhere you go. Use it as your avatar, signature or whatever. Then watermark your every image with it. That way it is known to be yours. They can say it it their logo but if you load it to flikr the datestamp will be earlier than any fakers.

Its an unfortunate side affect of the interwebs, even I have been guilty of grabbing a picture without saving the source, but I have never said it was mine.

It's a few sad kids online obviously impressed with your MOC and trying to pass it off as their own. Take them up on it and ask them all the things you have been asking us here and see if they apolagise. Try explaining the work you put into it and how it hurts that they "stole" it.

In the end they can't take away your talent nor your recognition amongst your peers.

Do you build for the praise and recognition? or do you build for the joy of creating something from some plastic bricks most adults call a childrens toy?

Its not on that they are entering contests with it, but all they are doing is selling themselves short by not making their own things.

I build for the joy and share my MOCs just to say "hey, I built something that I am proud of, take a looksee." If i inspire one person to do something, or help one MOC maker overcome one issue they have with a technique I used I have a bonus on top of that pride.

Just my two pence.

[Ralph_S]

Design a logo. Make it prominent, put it everywhere you go. Use it as your avatar, signature or whatever. Then watermark your every image with it. That way it is known to be yours. They can say it it their logo but if you load it to flikr the datestamp will be earlier than any fakers.

Its an unfortunate side affect of the interwebs, even I have been guilty of grabbing a picture without saving the source, but I have never said it was mine.

It's a few sad kids online obviously impressed with your MOC and trying to pass it off as their own. Take them up on it and ask them all the things you have been asking us here and see if they apolagise. Try explaining the work you put into it and how it hurts that they "stole" it.

In the end they can't take away your talent nor your recognition amongst your peers.

Do you build for the praise and recognition? or do you build for the joy of creating something from some plastic bricks most adults call a childrens toy?

Its not on that they are entering contests with it, but all they are doing is selling themselves short by not making their own things.

I build for the joy and share my MOCs just to say "hey, I built something that I am proud of, take a looksee." If i inspire one person to do something, or help one MOC maker overcome one issue they have with a technique I used I have a bonus on top of that pride.

Just my two pence.

I know you mean well, but this is exactly the type of response that I described with "People start to gloze over plagiarism and then start pointing a finger at the person whose work is being plagiarised".

Getting recognition is nice, but certainly not my reason for building. I was building with LEGO when the only people who got to see what I did were my parents and sister and the internet was something only a few scientists and soldiers used. I also have no problem whatsoever with people building a model that is either inspired by what I do or is a copy of the model that they build themselves. That is flattering. I have regularly supplied people with detail pictures of how the MOCs are put together in order to help them. I actually did that earlier today.

I have tried to reason with people who commit plagiarism on numerous occasions. In response they either delete the comment (I've seen it happen on MOCpages and on flickr) or they flat out deny doing it. They already know that what they're doing is wrong, but apparently value the attention they get more than doing the right thing.

It's not just my MOCs either. Really, just spend a little time browsing Lego Universe. In just half an hour I found more than a dozen pictures that are either my own or that I recognise as belonging to other LEGO builders I know and no matter how many extenuating circumstances any of us cane come up with, that's just wrong. LEGO have been informed and they have a responsibility to do something. I'll keep you informed of what I hear back from them.

Ralph

Edited April 19, 2009 by Ralph_S