Ideas for TLG going more "green"

[Brickthus]

I know in the US there is a general negative stigma associated with nuclear power plants. Hopefully the president's recent comments will convince people to at least look at the facts and not just believe the fear mongering. I thought that Europeans had a generally more accepting view of them? The waste is still an issue though. I doubt LEGO will make one or anything like it anyway. It would be nice though.

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Heh! 2x yellow round bricks and a sticker = nuclear waste barrel!

European countries vary. France has over 80% nuclear electricity, Britain was just over 20% nuclear but we need to get a move on in replacing those plants. That's part of the commitment to reduce CO2 - coal and gas don't help with that. As for small nuclear plants, there is plenty of campaigning against the devices used in spacecraft. They have added risk from the launch vehicle exploding!

There are four major players in the civil nuclear industry. I'm not sure TLG would want to be associated so closely with these companies as they are with Vestas for the windmill! There is a home windmill available from some DIY stores in the UK, but the price (about £1200) is about the same as the saving in electricity over 10 years, by which time the windmill has worn out. No saving = no incentive

IF TLG did make a nuclear plant, I have the train to take the waste to the reprocessing plant

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How about a Solar Power Plant? Just imagine all the wonderful metallic grille tiles you'd get in that.

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A solar plant would be appropriate for desert countries, but not Europe! Too much rain in the UK! An HEP plant would be better for the UK, but the size of it would require quite a layout before it would fit! I think the windmill has hit the right spot because it's easily recognisable and visible to customers in many countries. Why the Vestas windmill is not more widely available is a mystery for TLG's marketing dept. to think about.

Along the lines of windmills, how about a new LEGO plane with open rotor engines? They are up to 40% greener than normal jet engines for the short haul aircraft market.

The Power Functions battery box is green - saves all those batteries in the waste!

Mark

[Tyrant]

Heh! 2x yellow round bricks and a sticker = nuclear waste barrel!

European countries vary. France has over 80% nuclear electricity, Britain was just over 20% nuclear but we need to get a move on in replacing those plants. That's part of the commitment to reduce CO2 - coal and gas don't help with that. As for small nuclear plants, there is plenty of campaigning against the devices used in spacecraft. They have added risk from the launch vehicle exploding!

There are four major players in the civil nuclear industry. I'm not sure TLG would want to be associated so closely with these companies as they are with Vestas for the windmill! There is a home windmill available from some DIY stores in the UK, but the price (about £1200) is about the same as the saving in electricity over 10 years, by which time the windmill has worn out. No saving = no incentive

IF TLG did make a nuclear plant, I have the train to take the waste to the reprocessing plant

I knew France was big on nuclear power. Our own plants are getting older as well. The problem here is that a lot of people try to make it sound like every nuclear power plant is another Chernobyl waiting to happen. Mountains of data contradict this, but the science seems to be hard to explain to some people. There are some potential drawbacks (again, the waste) but the plants have virtually no emissions. I hope that the green push here will make some people take another look at nuclear.

A solar plant would be appropriate for desert countries, but not Europe! Too much rain in the UK! An HEP plant would be better for the UK, but the size of it would require quite a layout before it would fit! I think the windmill has hit the right spot because it's easily recognisable and visible to customers in many countries. Why the Vestas windmill is not more widely available is a mystery for TLG's marketing dept. to think about.

Solar power plants may not be popular in Europe*, but they are viable in the US. Our southwest is almost entirely sun blasted desert. The central plains are also mostly sunny (and windy).

*I have seen a recent show on the History channel about alternative energy that showed a rather unique solar plant in Spain. It is a large central tower with a turbine in the base. Surrounding it is a circular area that would best be described as a green house. The air only has one exit point, the tower. THe sun heats the air and it has to escape out through the tower which drives the turbine. There are virtually no moving parts and virtually no expense in actually operating the plant. They are building a much larger version in Australia. The tower to their version will be over 2000 feet tall, according to the show at least. This design is different from the mirror farm image that most people have when they think solar power plants. There were a couple of other ideas on that show that LEGO could use.

[WesternOutlaw]

Very interesting topic KD.

While I think this topic is more specific to Trains & Town, let me share my thoughts.

With the threat of sounding "unpolitically correct", I don't so much care if Lego goes green. While I think a "green society" that recycles, and conserves, and uses our natural resources wisely is important to the future of generations to come, I don't necessarily buy a Lego set for "political reasons".

If I did, I might be opposed to themes like Batman that has minifigs of the criminally insane, Wild West were every minifig has a rifle and a few pistols, and Indy with it's WWII German war vehicles. All of these themes I really like and as an AFOL, I buy what appeals and/or interests me.

My favorite type of town is a Classic Town, and one of the things I like about classic type is its "old time" and simple charm. Towns of this sort are not so much "green", but rather depict a time in which everyone is a little slower paced, people all have smiles, and the negative things that come with City are at a minimal (like crime, traffic, disease, and war/conflict). This is one of the reasons why I like the Farm theme - it's a simpler and happier life style. Perhaps "Green" ties in with this vision, but to me "Green" is also modern which somewhat varies from Classic.

In my recent Train Town (depicted below), I chose green baseplates intentionally, because I like the thought of a grassy country town. In the desert, green grass is not "green" at all, but rather quite bad with water restrictions and forced desert landscaping. I like the thought of kids playing with the hose in the street squirting one another, not worrying about wasting water, because it was a simpler time when resources were abundant; not at all "green".

From a learning perspective, it is important to teach children not to waste resurces and to protect our planet, but is Lego the tool to do this? I'm not sure, but as an AFOL who buys mostly for myself, I'm looking for attributes in a set other than to promote "green living". I would just as well see Lego create a Classic Town-style Dutch Windmill than the new Vesta windmill. So, to answer your question, I don't care if Lego goes "green". I care about nicely detailed town sets that bring back the simplicity and Classic look of small-town living.

[Tyrant]

Very interesting topic KD.

While I think this topic is more specific to Trains & Town, let me share my thoughts.

I didn't want to quote your whole post.

I see what you are saying. For me, the interest (as far as the sets) is for the sake of diversity. The windmill is one of the few (or only) power generating structures that has been made into a set. I would like to see others, such as a nuclear power plant. But I would like to see them because I would like to see power generating stations, not becuase it's green. The green awareness just increases the potential of this happening. Something else would be a recycling plant. I myself live in a very small town (supposedly 3000 people, but I have my doubts on the number being that high) and we have a recycling center so I think it could fit in with your small town preferences (though it is porbably viewed as a more modern ideal). During the 80's when I was a kid one of the things I thought was great about Town was the diversity that you saw. Along with houses they had stores, restaraunts, garages, street sweepers, mail men, etc. You could actually buy almost everything you would find in a town. Now it's mostly emergency services (does LEGO City represent some hybrid of Gotham and the Tokyo of the Godzilla movies to need so many fire and police personel?). The Farm was a nice addition. But even with all the older things, power plants (and lines for that matter) are still missing. So, for me anyway, the topic in general is a reason to get some things we don't already have in the Town/City setting. my main interest is Castle, so if this somehow also gets an era appropriate windmill for that too, I am onboard. If not power plants, then little touches like solar panels, house scale wind turbines, or recycling boxes would be nice. Kind of like when they introdued trash cans, it's the little things that continue to draw me back. I just wish I had the space (and the budget) for a massive City set up. I've still got my 9V train and plenty of track if I ever do.

As far as the company itself, given that it is a product I buy a lot of knowing they are doing what they can to not pollute the planet is a nice thought. I am not an idealist who thinks everyone will go green. I am a realist and I know most people (heck, even I won't go green in everything) won't so every little bit helps.

[Eilif]

From a learning perspective, it is important to teach children not to waste resurces and to protect our planet, but is Lego the tool to do this? I'm not sure, but as an AFOL who buys mostly for myself, I'm looking for attributes in a set other than to promote "green living". I would just as well see Lego create a Classic Town-style Dutch Windmill than the new Vesta windmill. So, to answer your question, I don't care if Lego goes "green". I care about nicely detailed town sets that bring back the simplicity and Classic look of small-town living.

I understand that as an AFOL collector, your point of view is different, but in as much as LEGO is a set for children, I think LEGO is a definitely a tool for teaching our children to interact responsibly with their environment. Toys can definitely help teach kids how to live. Action figures may or may not be beneficial in this regard, but LEGO on the other hand is all about building worlds of imagination, and I think it's a good thing if the worlds our children create at a young age set the stage for the worlds they create when they are grown.

As to the "small-town" living quality of Classic Town, it's a charming way of life that has much to teach us over-paced and often socialy-disconnected urbanites, but the world has changed from the world of the 70's. We live in an actively urbanizing world. For the first time in history over 50% of the world's population now lives in an "urban center", and the earlier our children learn to responsibly manage that world the better.

Personally, I'd love to see more town-ish sets, but I'd be equally thrilled to see sets that actively teach environmental responsibility.

[Brickthus]

I knew France was big on nuclear power. Our own plants are getting older as well. The problem here is that a lot of people try to make it sound like every nuclear power plant is another Chernobyl waiting to happen. Mountains of data contradict this, but the science seems to be hard to explain to some people. There are some potential drawbacks (again, the waste) but the plants have virtually no emissions. I hope that the green push here will make some people take another look at nuclear.

Solar power plants may not be popular in Europe*, but they are viable in the US. Our southwest is almost entirely sun blasted desert. The central plains are also mostly sunny (and windy).

*I have seen a recent show on the History channel about alternative energy that showed a rather unique solar plant in Spain. It is a large central tower with a turbine in the base. Surrounding it is a circular area that would best be described as a green house. The air only has one exit point, the tower. THe sun heats the air and it has to escape out through the tower which drives the turbine. There are virtually no moving parts and virtually no expense in actually operating the plant. They are building a much larger version in Australia. The tower to their version will be over 2000 feet tall, according to the show at least. This design is different from the mirror farm image that most people have when they think solar power plants. There were a couple of other ideas on that show that LEGO could use.

I guess you're familiar with Chernobyl being a positive-coefficient reactor and most others negative-coefficient reactors? That means Chernobyl was inherently less stable to begin with, whereas most PWRs are quite stable.

I think in the US people might be more focused on 3-Mile Island! The design has changed since then, to incorporate additional valves that reduce the risk of that particular occurrence.

A lot of risks were taken during the Cold War, partly because there was an arms race and partly because less was known about controlling nuclear power and its effects on people. I saw a TV programme about the early UK work at Windscale / Sellafield. Some early experiments were seriously risky but all that data has produced a much safer system of regulations now. Statistically, in the 21st century with the relevant regulations met, I'd feel just as safe in a nuclear plant control room as on a plane!

I think I saw the programme you mention. A solar mirror farm would look good, especially if the panels tracked a light source! I'm sure an NXT with a couple of light sensors could control the panels to do that.

Regarding solar in the UK, I once tried out a 10x30cm panel to charge my car battery. It produced about 30mW into 4700 ohms on a sunny day in winter. Considering that the car alarm took 41mA, the solar panel performance was rubbish! I sent it back! If solar panels would improve by the factor of 10 I've heard is possible, there's no reason why all electric and hybrid cars shouldn't have a solar roof to charge their batteries.

Mark

[mikey]

I understand that as an AFOL collector, your point of view is different, but in as much as LEGO is a set for children, I think LEGO is a definitely a tool for teaching our children to interact responsibly with their environment.

I think this is an important point, and i'm sure this is something the Lego designers are aware of, I understand that the company was founded on these principles. It is a good thing that they are starting to pursue these themes, and I hope they are widely available.

I think the generation Lego is aimed at (6-12), will be totally environmentaly aware, they are born in to a society trying to deal with the mistakes of the past, and I presume not recycling, futile uses of energy and resources will be as socially unacceptable to them, as say drink driving/ racism etc is to us.

As for the debate this post has started about Nuclear power, I think as a short term solution it is the only way we can get out of the mess we are in, without extreme changes to society and economy. But creating, and then stockpiling very dangerous heavy elements is not a long term solution, it may give us a breathing space of fifty years or so, in which time alternative energy solutions need to be perfected, but we need to be aware they measure the half life in thousands of years for the waste of this system.

[Tyrant]

I guess you're familiar with Chernobyl being a positive-coefficient reactor and most others negative-coefficient reactors? That means Chernobyl was inherently less stable to begin with, whereas most PWRs are quite stable.

I think in the US people might be more focused on 3-Mile Island! The design has changed since then, to incorporate additional valves that reduce the risk of that particular occurrence.

I am not well read on all of the details of the Chernobyl incident. I had heard that there were significant design flaws that were attributed to the designer. As I understood it, the designer was not someone with experience in this field. As for three mile island, most of the people in the US that seem to leap to wild conclusions want to point to Chernobyl. It seems to have the greater shock factor and they usually claim it's almost the worst case scenario. I occasionally see someone claim that a nuclear blast is the worst case scenario which causes me to sit there and shake my head.

I think I saw the programme you mention. A solar mirror farm would look good, especially if the panels tracked a light source! I'm sure an NXT with a couple of light sensors could control the panels to do that.

That could be an interesting set.

[Klaus-Dieter]

Again I must say that it is great to see so many people being interested in this theme! Thank you very much for participating, voting and sharing your great ideas!

Very interesting topic KD.

While I think this topic is more specific to Trains & Town, let me share my thoughts.

With the threat of sounding "unpolitically correct", I don't so much care if Lego goes green. While I think a "green society" that recycles, and conserves, and uses our natural resources wisely is important to the future of generations to come, I don't necessarily buy a Lego set for "political reasons".

If I did, I might be opposed to themes like Batman that has minifigs of the criminally insane, Wild West were every minifig has a rifle and a few pistols, and Indy with it's WWII German war vehicles. All of these themes I really like and as an AFOL, I buy what appeals and/or interests me.

My favorite type of town is a Classic Town, and one of the things I like about classic type is its "old time" and simple charm. Towns of this sort are not so much "green", but rather depict a time in which everyone is a little slower paced, people all have smiles, and the negative things that come with City are at a minimal (like crime, traffic, disease, and war/conflict). This is one of the reasons why I like the Farm theme - it's a simpler and happier life style. Perhaps "Green" ties in with this vision, but to me "Green" is also modern which somewhat varies from Classic.

In my recent Train Town (depicted below), I chose green baseplates intentionally, because I like the thought of a grassy country town. In the desert, green grass is not "green" at all, but rather quite bad with water restrictions and forced desert landscaping. I like the thought of kids playing with the hose in the street squirting one another, not worrying about wasting water, because it was a simpler time when resources were abundant; not at all "green".

From a learning perspective, it is important to teach children not to waste resurces and to protect our planet, but is Lego the tool to do this? I'm not sure, but as an AFOL who buys mostly for myself, I'm looking for attributes in a set other than to promote "green living". I would just as well see Lego create a Classic Town-style Dutch Windmill than the new Vesta windmill. So, to answer your question, I don't care if Lego goes "green". I care about nicely detailed town sets that bring back the simplicity and Classic look of small-town living.

Thanks, TheBrickster!

I agree with that it isn't Lego's duty to educate children.

But on the other hand think about which influence TV and video games have on older children. So it's not far away to say that the contents of Lego sets influence younger children - not in that huge and surely not knowingy but nevertheless.

And when you look at some current sets you even see that TLG wants to "educate" children (which is imo really not wrong). Only have a look at the great set 7641 City Life: The skateboarding kid wears a helmet. But in reality I only very, very seldom see kids with helmets on a skateboard. So why should TLG add a helmet and not a baseball cap or simply a hair piece to the kid minifigure? My thought is that TLG wants to show children that when you skateboard you should wear a helmet (and that because of reasonable reasons).

I, too, think that already releasing some (City) sets with more "green" but not in the meaning of power meant indegriedants would help: more trees, bushes, flowers and animals, perhaps even recycle dustbins. And imo the new Farm theme is already something going in that direction.

Klaus-Dieter

[Eilif]

I got out my copy of "The Brick" (Go to LEGO.com and get your copy now!) and brought over some more details about LEGO going greener

New box sizes

-7% smaller

-Designed to pack together better

-54 sizes of boxes made instead of the 85 that were made last year.

-1352 less truck trips needed in europe and 598 less needed in USA

Energy reduction

-Set goal of 10% reduction over next 3 years so that energy use in 2010 will be 90% of use in 2007

-possible areas include manufacturing, packing and shipping.

[Tyrant]

I got out my copy of "The Brick" (Go to LEGO.com and get your copy now!) and brought over some more details about LEGO going greener

New box sizes

-7% smaller

-Designed to pack together better

-54 sizes of boxes made instead of the 85 that were made last year.

-1352 less truck trips needed in europe and 598 less needed in USA

Energy reduction

-Set goal of 10% reduction over next 3 years so that energy use in 2010 will be 90% of use in 2007

-possible areas include manufacturing, packing and shipping.

It's nice to see a company trying to cut waste when it can in this way. I know in general most compaines should try to cut waste if for no other reason than it affects their bottom line. Hopefully they will find some way to advertise these moves to their typical customers. From some of their literature I know they already recycle a great deal of their waste material in their factories. That too is good. Maybe a blurb in their catalogues or something on the instructions booklets to let all their customers know about their efforts will get people thinking they are an environmentally sensitive company (which would probably give them an increase in sales).

[legotrainfan]

TLC could produce more means of public transport: a tram and an underground. And as Klaus-Dieter has mentioned, more plants would be great. Trees in minifig size would be wonderful.

As for the discussion on the Toyota Prius that was going on here, I think its batteries are recharged by the energy produced by braking.