Is Knights Kingdom a continuation of the Castle theme?

[Mister Phes]

I realise what it is, but I'm wondering why it was mentioned when we were talking about goldy locks castle. I got my years confused for its US release. I thought it was 84 instead of 81.

[snefroe]

The reason the yellow castle was so popular (it was sold for over five years) goes well beyond simple nostalgia.

[blueandwhite]

Yellow castle had an awful variety of pieces.  Almost anything you make with it looks the same.  The horse would fall apart, the figures were much more delicate than the ones we have now and it simply doesn't compare to sets like 6080, 6090, 6074, 6079, 6081, 6085, 6086, 6091, 8781, or even 8877.  These sets have building opportunities beyond anything 375 ever could achieve. 

That's flat-out untrue. The fact is, 375/6075 offered a level of versatility rarely seen in today's sets. It is more akin to the creator line of sets, where the emphasis is on construction. In those days, LEGO's primary play feature was the fact you could build anything so long as your imagination was open to the possibilities. I have seen many fantastic castles made with predominantly basic bricks. To say that everything you build with a set like 375 looks pretty much the same is wrong.

LEGO's play value used to come from the fact that it was a building toy. As you have pointed out, this model of business has changed considerably. KKII is first and foremost an action figure line that is largely story driven. The sets themselves are playsets, lacking the necessary basic elements to truly build a variety of interesting MOCs. Most of the MOCs built from the KK sets consist of nothing more than a few pre-fabricated walls, re-arranged in a new layout. Juniorization is nothing new of course (Fright Knights anyone?), but to suggest that 375 lacks variety is absurd. Having a set where most pieces are specialized to a single purpose or use doesn't give KKII sets variety. It makes them great playsets, simplified for a larger audience.

The only reason classic sets have such high value is because they are harder to come by in decent condition.  Not because they are superior products.  Forestmen are much more in demand than the old knights from 375, only availibility drives prices up.  8877 has more pieces and six less figures than 375.  Yet can you really compare the two?  What could you make with your yellow castle, a blocky yellow fort, a blocky yellow tower, a different blocky yellow castle, a blocky yellow arena or even a pile of hay.  What can you build with the dark fortress?  A five story tower, an japanese temple, a giant seige machine, a rocky outpost, a smugglers cave, a feast hall with pillars, or even a space ship.  Can you do any of that with a 375 and have people think it is cool

Again, that's your opinion. Of course demand drives the prices up. That doesn't mean that these sets are in demand solely because they are rare. There are those of us who purchase our LEGO to build, rather than collect. As a building set, 375 knows few equals.

And lets be real here. I have yet to see a great MOC made primarily from the KKII sets. I have certainly never seen anything that remotely resembles a shinto temple or spaceship. Sure, you can stack a bunch of wall pieces together and call it whatever you want. That doesn't make it so. Applying the standards you applied to 375, it seems to me that I should do the same. With 8781 and 8877 you can make a jumble of wall-pieces, a pile of pre-fab bricks, or a mountain of accessories! The fact is, sets like 8781 and 8877 don't have enough basic bricks to build a truly inspiring MOC.

LEGO castle is changing still.  If you like the older style stuff, do as Sting said and build it that way.  I happen to like the newer stuff colors and all.  I will build in a style that suits both.  Either way KK2 is still LEGO castle.

Indeed.

Unfortunately, I will have to disagree with you. As I see it, KKII is its own entity. A line that has more in common with a comicbook or saturday morning cartoon than anything else. The sets, and colours are for the most part, incompatible with the earlier theme. If LEGO can draw a distinction between Train and Town, I sure can see the distinction between KKII and castle.

Later.

[blueandwhite]

It is the first gray castle.  A completely different style than the sets before it.  The start of what many consider the "golden age" of castle LEGO.

6080

Overrated gray box with a gate if you ask me.

You really don't like classic LEGO do you? Kind of makes me wonder why you'd want to include KKII with other castle lines in the first place.

[Mister Phes]

hm... some one has the guts to criticise The Yellow Castle? :o  This blasphemy should be severely punished by the Spanish Inquisition! Torture him, I say!  :P

It is not the mighty Spanish Inquistions' function to punish those whose blaspheme The Yellow Castle. While we don't think its the worse set around, we wouldn't mind plundering it for parts because we don't think its a masterpiece either. It was a promising start to a theme which got better and better, then eventually worse and worse until it became what it is today - Knights Kingdom II |-D

However if that were Eldorado Fortress under seige we would rush to its defense! Hmmm... Who round here doesn't like that Count Sneffy?

[SuvieD]

You really don't like classic LEGO do you?

[Mister Phes]

I might try contact LEGO through their website and see if they provide me with an answer on this matter... Probably not...

[snefroe]

While we don't think its the worse set around, we wouldn't mind plundering it for parts because we don't think its a masterpiece either. It was a promising start to a theme which got better and better, then eventually worse and worse until it became what it is today - Knights Kingdom II |-D

wow!! you effectively summarised the 20 years and dozens of sets of lego's Castle theme! :P

[Mister Phes]

Oh yeah. That was quite accidental too! I was just being a smart megablok when I wrote that.

[Sting]

You really don't like classic LEGO do you?

[Mister Phes]

I'm sure when Knights Kingdom II was first released everyone here was jumping for joy about how this was a step in the right direction for LEGO Castle sets. But after reading the posts here I get the impression they're even worse than the first Knights Kingdom sets.

[snefroe]

i'm wondering if there's a generation thing going on. I mean, is there a connection between age and the castle sets you like the most? i think that's the case for me. I grew up when yellow castle was released, i barely saw 6080 later on. At that point, i was a spaceman, and by the early 90's, castle was far far away...

other people probably grew up with 6080 and because of that, prefer 6080...

just guessing here...

[blueandwhite]

I might try contact LEGO through their website and see if they provide me with an answer on this matter... Probably not...

Good luck :) !

I'm not sure you'll get a clear answer though.

The thing is, I don't think LEGO has an official stance on this. Fan sites like Peeron also tend to be inconsistent. Dino Attack, Adventures and the like are all treated as being a sub-set of the Town theme, but they are also listed as independant themes. Brickset's theme list specifically separates KKII from Castle (though it includes KKI). These decisions are arbitrary, and will depend on the opinion of the person you speak to. Clearly defined themes seem to be a thing of the past, as more sets tend to be story-driven. Thematic divisions no longer hold the same meaning. Afterall, Xtreme Stunts was treated as its own theme, yet it fits with Town better than KKII fits with the previous castle theme.

The way I see it, KKII is the beginning of a second castle theme, unrelated to the first. It is a unique product-line, designed to succeed in a market where the previous line failed. Many children's toylines are relaunched (He-Man, Transformers, Ninja Turtles etc.) in this manner.

Each of us has our own opinion on this, and I doubt there will ever be an official answer.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

I might try contact LEGO through their website and see if they provide me with an answer on this matter...  Probably not...

Good luck :) !

I'm not sure you'll get a clear answer though.

I did get a clear answer when I asked them why the pirate theme was cancelled. Not that I entirely believed them.

[blueandwhite]

i'm wondering if there's a generation thing going on. I mean, is there a connection between age and the castle sets you like the most? i think that's the case for me. I grew up when yellow castle was released, i barely saw 6080 later on. At that point, i was a spaceman, and by the early 90's, castle was far far away...

other people probably grew up with 6080 and because of that, prefer 6080...

just guessing here...

Personally, my favorite castle set was 6086 which was released when I was fifteen (hardly a set I grew up with). I'm not sure if age has alot to do with it, though it may play a factor. Today's kids simply have more forms of entertainment to distract them. LEGO is a small fish in a big pond! Preferences will also very if your a builder or a collector. Needless to say, no two minds are alike.

As to 6080. It certainly had a number of positive points. The brick-built porticulus was great (its a design I continue to employ in various forms). It had a nice assortment of figures and weapons, and a large piece count. Of course, 6085 essentially did everything 6080 did, only on a grander scale. I certainly think that it was more than a mere 'box'.

[snefroe]

I did get a clear answer when I asked them why the pirate theme was cancelled. Not that I entirely believed them.

what did they tell you?

[Mister Phes]

They said they wanted to explore new themes. Which they did! Just look at how many themes appeared in the mid to late 90's that never went anywhere. Well done LEGO!!!

[Sting]

I'm sure when Knights Kingdom II was first released everyone here was jumping for joy about how this was a step in the right direction for LEGO Castle sets.  But after reading the posts here I get the impression they're even worse than the first Knights Kingdom sets.

They are. Much worse. I am still confused too as to why people think KK3 will be better? Is there any pictures of the minifig scale KK3 sets?

And about the Age thing... I think the Yellow Castle isn't that great... I think the Minifigs ruled... but it was kind of boring... but I do think it is a MUCH better set than the Fright Knights set(the first bad Castle line). And I was 10 When the Fright Knights came out.

Interesting also how I think the Castle and Town sets from the 80s(before I was born... I didn't get my first pile of official lego until I was 3... which was 1990 (I had large BIGGER THAN DUPLO style... megablocks(no lie...) when I was very young... I think they were megablocks...).

I think some people are affected by the generation thing. I thought all of the castle sets from 1984 - 1996 were cool. I remember first seeing the Fright Knights and saying "what is this?". I didnt like them from the second I saw them...

Ninja was good(whether it is considered Castle or Not I really don't care) and KK2 was crap except for the really good minifigs...

That is my 2 cents on the age to preference idea...

[Mister Phes]

Not that I'm aware of. I've seen those stupid looking action figure things but that's it.

[snefroe]

1) i think there is a huge difference between Castle before KK and KK sets: KK basically is two camps fighting each other. all you get are weapons of war and structures, like towers or castles. The pre KK sets were far more into creating a medieval world, with peasants, farmers, the legedary Inn, ghosts, dragons,... it was far more innocent, if you're asking me, far more like the real medieval world...

2) i still like KK 1. sure, it's all about war and the minifig heads don't really look appealing to me (especially compared to pirates), but you can mix them with the stuff from before KK.

3) i don't like KK 2. I feel they crossed a line there. the link with reality is completely gone, the colors don't make any sense to me, the sets aren't attractive. do you even get the chance to build real armies like you used to?

i guess all sets pre KK are castle to me. i don't care about subthemes or anything, it's all the same to me. KK is different because it no longer carries the title "Castle".

[Mister Phes]

Is Orient Expedition still Adventurers?

[blueandwhite]

They are. Much worse. I am still confused too as to why people think KK3 will be better? Is there any pictures of the minifig scale KK3 sets?

Honestly, after looking at the maxifigs (large knights), I suppose people expect that the minifigs are going to improve. This year's maxifigs are wearing more conventional helmets in conventional colours (pearl grey, and black). Sir Adric and Karzon are wearing what appear to be a Great Helms. I suspect many fans are holding out hope for conventional armour in conventional colours (grey, bley, pearl, or black). In otherwords, people are hoping that this year's line will have something of a medieval feel, unlike year 1 and 2. At this point, its too early to make any guesses as to what the sets themselves might be like.

Ninja was good(whether it is considered Castle or Not I really don't care) and KK2 was crap except for the really good minifigs...

.

Ninja STILL IS GOOD :) . Much like KK, many people have debated whether Ninja is actually castle or not. Either way, this was a great line with a couple of fantastic castles and some of the best minifigs LEGO has ever produced. Unfortunately, it was produced at a bad time, and ultimately died out. If we get another ninja theme, I suspect it will be 'anime inspired', and feature a bunch of wacky characters fighting mutants/robots/and or dinosaurs :| ! Still, it was one of the nicer lines coming out of the late 1990s.

[Mister Phes]

But what about Orient Expedition being part of the Adventurers theme?

[snefroe]

But what about Orient Expedition being part of the Adventurers theme?

yes it is

[Norro]

Well...

Here is my humble opinion:

KK2 is distinct from castle. (Not just because of the bley.) All previous castle themes interrelated (the brochures showed the factions fighting each other) but even when you picked the figs up they could fairly easily stand next to each other... In my MOCs I use castle figs that span the whole range of the castle theme (except the yellow castle figs because I don't have any) and it looks good. I don't use the multi-colour men because it would look terrible.

Then there is the Bionicle connection, all previous castle themes (Including KK1 which I consider castle) started from a traditional lego theme based vaugery (ie not actionfigures with stories of which they were merely the playsets).

I hate to disagree with SuvieD but what I consider to be the best themes has very little relation to what I grew up on... I know kids now who are growing up on KK2 but complaiin about the colours, they bring a BFF out of the closet (the legend) as their most treasured set...

I (that's right me) define a theme as an lines of sets that interrelat, ie WW is independant, adventurers includes Orient Expedition (it is the same characters). Rock Raiders is obviously distinct etc...

God Bless,

Nathan