Is Knights Kingdom a continuation of the Castle theme?

[blueandwhite]

mister_phes, I was wondering, do you feel that Life on Mars is a continuation of the Space theme? SuvieD has indicated that he does not. What is your take on LoM? And if Life on Mars is its own theme, can you explain to me why you still feel that KKII is a continuation of the Castle theme?

Thanks.

[Mister Phes]

I don't know enought abou Life on Mars to make that assessment so I'm going to have to do some research.

First of all, somebody tell me when did the Space Theme end?

[blueandwhite]

I don't know enought abou Life on Mars to make that assessment so I'm going to have to do some research.

First of all, somebody tell me when did the Space Theme end?

It seems to me that most Spacers feel that the Space theme ended in 1999, just before Star Wars was introduced. Still, "Space" as a theme is probably even more vague than "Castle". Still, many fans consider Life on Mars to be its own theme.

Personally, I feel Life on Mars is its own theme rather than a continuation of the Space theme. Still, the line does take place in space, and it does include astronauts. From what some people are suggesting about KKII, this should be enough to call LoM a continuation of classic space. I was wondering your take on it, as we seem to disagree about the whole KKII thing so greatly.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

I've looked at the 1999 catalogue and it appears to have both Space and Star Wars sets. I've looked at Life on Mars and they don't that much different to the 90s space sets.

I've concluded if people like the theme (in the case of Adventurers and Orient Expedition) then it can be included within the canon of the theme. But if people don't like the theme, then its considered an entirely different theme with no connection to any previous themes of a similiar nature.

[blueandwhite]

I've concluded if people like the theme (in the case of Adventurers and Orient Expedition) then it can be included within the canon of the theme.  But if people don't like the theme, then its considered an entirely different theme with no connection to any previous themes of a similiar nature.

That's an interesting conclusion, however many fans seem to include several lines they don't like within the scope of themes that they do. I mean, I hate the Fright Knights more than any other castle line (including than KKII), yet I still consider them to be a branch of the original Castle theme. In fact, I don't like where LEGO took Classic Castle post-1992. Despite my feelings towards these sets, I still consider them part of the original Castle line.

When I read your conclusion, I suspect that you haven't really considered my position, or the position of others such as Norro. I'm not saying I hate KKII, or that it isn't a castle theme. I am saying it isn't a continuation of the original Castle theme. This has nothing to do with personal tastes, and everything to do with design.

I think Norro made some excellent points. They are definitely worth a re-read.

Later.

[SuvieD]

I don't have time to read all this now. I will say more Monday. Everyone keeps bringing up how different KK2 is from the rest of castle. How it is power ranger influenced and unrealistic. So, is everything castle LEGO.

Prime example. The new harry potter movie. New director, new artists, darker story. Things the first movies didn't have. Any less Potter? Of course not. I am not speaking of the story or the characters. Merely, how the movie is made. Like castle, regardless of the knights, kings and what not, KK2 is under a different direction than previous LEGO castle. It is still the castle theme LEGO has chosen to make.

Anyway. I will say more later.

have a great weekend everyone.

[Mister Phes]

When I read your conclusion, I suspect that you haven't really considered my position, or the position of others such as Norro.  I'm not saying I hate KKII, or that it isn't a castle theme.  I am saying it isn't a continuation of the original Castle theme.  This has nothing to do with personal tastes, and everything to do with design. 

I think Norro made some excellent points.  They are definitely worth a re-read.

And which of Mr Norro's excellent posts should be re-read? His point is in the other themes there are the same characters within Adventurers and Orient Expedition. But so what? There is no need for the same characters spanning across the entire theme or sub-themes for one particular sub-theme to be part of the greater over all theme.

Secondly he states that Orient Expedition is set sin the same world as Adventurers. Why isn't Knights Kingdom set in the same world as the other Castle sets? Has it been officially stated that its not? Ok, its obviously a Kingdom distinctly different form the other castle themes, but why does that make it in an entirely different world? Because Knights Kingdom has Mighty Morphin Power Ranger Knights with Engery Swords that suddenly makes it a whole new universe?

Last I was aware 75% of people on Earth don't have access to a telephone, while others are using high speed Internet connections. Point is they all exist in the same world at the same time, just different parts have access to differen't technologies and they look vastly different from one another too.

[Mister Phes]

Prime example. The new harry potter movie. New director, new artists, darker story.

Or what about Star Wars!!! Look how the latest trilogy differs from the original triology. Some die-hard fans of the original triology refuse to accept the latest triology as part of the Star Wars universe. Too bad for them, because whether they like it or not, it is indeed the official story.

Its almost as silly as saying Knights Kingdom isn't part of Castle because its so different :D

[blueandwhite]

I don't have time to read all this now.  I will say more Monday.  Everyone keeps bringing up how different KK2 is from the rest of castle.  How it is power ranger influenced and unrealistic.  So, is everything castle LEGO.

You keep bring up realism. Yet both Norro and I have already admitted that the original Castle lines were not even close to being realistic. For nineteen years, LEGO castle evolved, building off earlier lines. This ended in 1997. The original KK tried to re-capture that market, but failed. KKII was not a continuation of the Castle theme. It was a reinvention of LEGO Castle. A completely new line, as different from Classic Castle as LoM was from Classic Space!

Prime example.  The new harry potter movie.  New director, new artists, darker story.  Things the first movies didn't have.  Any less Potter?  Of course not.  I am not speaking of the story or the characters.  Merely, how the movie is made.  Like castle, regardless of the knights, kings and what not, KK2 is under a different direction than previous LEGO castle.  It is still the castle theme LEGO has chosen to make.

Time to bring out the BAT-SIGNAL!!!

IN 1989, Tim Burton's Batman opened to audience, achieving mass success. The movie was so popular, it spawned a sequel in 1992: Batman Returns. Again, the movie proved successful with audiences. A third sequel was ordered. This time around, changes were made to freshen up the franchise. Ultimately, the movie fared quite well and Batman was another go. Batman & Robin ultimately proved less succesful. Allthough the movie still had roots in the Burton Bat Universe, the franchise had lost alot of steam with fans. After two directors, three different actors playing Batman, and four movies, the Burton Batman was finally put to rest. (Burton acted as producer on the last two Batman movies).

Marching forward to 2005. Batman Begins is released after much fan anticipation. Still, this Batman was a new animal. He was a re-vitalized and re-imaged Batman, borrowing more from the comics than the Burton Batman did. Yes, Chris Nolan's Batman is Batman. No, Chris Nolan's Batman is not the same as the Burton Batman. His origins are different. His character and the city he lives in are undeniably different when compared to the over-the-top style that characterized the Burtonverse. This Batman is not a sequel. He is the reinvention of a franchise.

Like Batman Begins, KKII is the reinvention of a franchise. Yes, it is a Castle theme. No, it does not tie in with the earlier lines. The lifecycle of the Burton Batman films is not that different from the lifecycle of the original Castle theme. Initially successful, the theme was often updated to recapture fans. Eventually however, the franchise became so damaged that it was impossible to continue. Ultimately, the powers that be decided that the franchise should be put to rest. This is what happened to LEGO Castle, Space and Pirates. The core elements that allowed those themes to work for so many years simply fell out of favour. Classic Castle died, and KKII was reborn.

This is how I (and many others) see it.

Anyway.  I will say more later.

have a great weekend everyone.

Looking forward to it. I always like to hear what others have to say.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

Like Batman Begins, KKII is the reinvention of a franchise.  Yes, it is a Castle theme.  No, it does not tie in with the earlier lines.  The lifecycle of the Burton Batman films is not that different from the lifecycle of the original Castle theme.  Initially successful, the theme was often updated to recapture fans.  Eventually however, the franchise became so damaged that it was impossible to continue.  Ultimately, the powers that be decided that the franchise should be put to rest.  This is what happened to LEGO Castle, Space and Pirates.  The core elements that allowed those themes to work for so many years simply fell out of favour.  Classic Castle died, and KKII was reborn.

This is how I (and many others) see it.

The main difference here being is it was made quite clear that Batman Begins was a relaunch of the Batman franchise. No official information has been given (or if so, then where?) to suggest that Knights Kingdom is any form of relaunch of Castle.

[blueandwhite]

Like Batman Begins, KKII is the reinvention of a franchise.

[Mister Phes]

I don't really care whether Knights Kingdom is a its own theme or not, I'm just arguing the point to keep the thread going...

But I don't find it unreasonable for LEGO to officially announce that Knights Kingdom is a relaunch of the Castle theme. It takes once sentence in catalogue afterall.

[blueandwhite]

But I don't find it unreasonable for LEGO to officially announce that Knights Kingdom is a relaunch of the Castle theme. It takes once sentence in catalogue afterall.

Actually, that doesn't make alot of sense. LEGO isn't targeting this line at old-timers who have a fondess for days long ago. This line is being produced for young children. LEGO has no reason to officially state anything one way or the other. The only thing such a statement would do is offend potential purchasers. For LEGO, this is just another new product line. It simply lacks any real connection to earlier castle lines. In fact, it lacks any connection with KKI, despite sharing the same name (remember, KKII is a name developed by fans).

To expect LEGO to make an official statement (was there even an official statement that Batman begins was a reboot rather than a prequel?) is asking too much.

Later.

[Sting]

To expect LEGO to make an official statement (was there even an official statement that Batman begins was a reboot rather than a prequel?) is asking too much.

Yes. It was mentioned that Batman Begins is unrelated to the Burton/Schumacher Movies.

I agree with you on most points... just letting you know there WAS statements from people working on Batman Begins that it is totally new. The next movie is going to probably have Joker as one of the main villains.

[Mister Phes]

Actually, that doesn't make alot of sense.  LEGO isn't targeting this line at old-timers who have a fondess for days long ago.  This line is being produced for young children.

In that case then young children will not distinguish that Knights Kingdom is different than the other castle sub-themes, so obviously ikddies won't consider it a relaunch! They'll show their older relatives that used to collect Castle and have gone into their dark age and say "Look at the latest Castle sets!"

[blueandwhite]

Actually, that doesn't make alot of sense.

[Mister Phes]

What is the official definition of a "relaunch"?

In the case of Transformers, their first relaunch in 1994 was made quite clear. It was called "Generation 2" and all the old models were brought back in bright shiney colours. I was a kid back then and knew exactly what was going on.

[Sting]

In the case of Transformers, their first relaunch in 1994 was made quite clear.  It was called "Generation 2" and all the old models were brought back in bright shiney colours.  I was a kid back then and knew exactly what was going on.

I didn't :)... but I was only 7 than.... you may have been older than me.

[Mister Phes]

Yes I was. But SYSTEM LEGO is marketted towards children 7-12 so the older children should be able to understand what a relaunch is. Or are children too stupid these days?

[blueandwhite]

Yes I was.  But SYSTEM LEGO is marketted towards children 7-12 so the older children should be able to understand what a relaunch is.  Or are children too stupid these days?

To appreciate that a toyline is actually a relaunch, or reboot of an earlier line, the child must first be exposed to the earlier line. Even then, it requires the child to have an understanding of just what it means to 'relaunch' a product. When I was a child, I had no idea that GI Joe was in fact a relaunch of a toyline from the 1960s. I had never seen a 12" GI Joe. The notion of relaunching a product in order to reach a new demographic is certainly not on the minds of most children.

Still, this is getting rather pointless isn't it? It doesn't matter how I respond. You will undoubtedly respond with another sharp question. If you don't consider KKII to be a relaunch, that's fine. Nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I obviously disagree with you. If you won't respect that, that's ok as well. I still see KKII as a relaunch. IMO, it is NOT a continuation, and nothing you have said has given me reason to think otherwise. Perhaps its best we leave it at that.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

Didn't you read my earlier post?

I don't really care whether Knights Kingdom is a its own theme or not, I'm just arguing the point to keep the thread going...

Anyway, congratulations are in order...

[blueandwhite]

Didn't you read my earlier post?

I don't really care whether Knights Kingdom is a its own theme or not, I'm just arguing the point to keep the thread going...

Anyway, congratulations are in order...

???

Not sure why your congratulating yourself, but whatever. Umm Congrats?

[Mister Phes]

I'm not congratulating myself, I'm congratulating you!

[blueandwhite]

I'm not congratulating myself, I'm congratulating you!

Well, ok. Anyway, its getting late. I just placed a Bricklink order for 95 LURPS and BURPS. I suppose I should be going. Take care now :) .

Later.

[Mister Phes]

What a shame... Oh well, you'll find out later...

LEGO responded to my question with the follow message (yes, in this format too):

Dear Sir/Madam,

In regards to your query, the Knights Kingdom series is its own product (theme), therefore separate from the old Castles.

Regards

Jodie Ekstrom

Customer Service

LEGO Australia Pty Ltd

So now I'll make my vote! The whole time I've been indifferent but because I wanted to keep this massive debate going I took the antagonistic role of challenging those who believed Knights Kingdom was a seperate theme.

But now that is over and we know the truth. I could have just Emailed LEGO and made my querie, then shared the result with everyone, but I thought this way was much more interesting!