Bionicle-2010?

[Zarkan]

Okay guys. I have an important question for you: Are you still interested in BIONICLE storyline? I'd like to know your answers on this, as this may be helpful for something else :)

Considering that I'm the guy who first posted in this topic about the last two Sahmad's Tale updates, I'd say yes.

[Nightmare]

Okay xD So, I've opened a BSS topic for this forum :) You'll find it sitting right here on the first page until 3D Brickthing comes and pincs it :P

We'll manage the suggestions submitting different here, making posts instead of PMs since we're like what? 10-20 at most? : P

EDIT: Topic link: http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=45864

Edited September 1, 2010 by Nightmare

[Phantoka Kopaka Nuva]

Okay guys. I have an important question for you: Are you still interested in BIONICLE storyline? I'd like to know your answers on this, as this may be helpful for something else :)

Yes. The sets may be gone, but I still love the story anyway. Just wish Greg had more free time to do it......

[The Crazy One]

Bionicle has ended for me. I sadly never got involved with the deeper story and I don't know how to. I'm now trying to invent a darker Hero Factory comic. Shame really.

[Aanchir]

I have had trouble keeping up with recent updates, since the main story is over and all that remains are the serials that follow more minor story threads. Plus, the past serials helped flesh out the main story-- for instance, Empire of the Skrall illustrated Tuma's activities while the focus of the main story was on other Bara Magna characters. Having a main story structure as a foundation meant there was a little greater understanding of the "overall" situation to keep the side-plots connected. 2008 story was the most beautiful example of this IMO.

Nowadays, it's hard to get a sense of where things stand based on just the serials. And their infrequency means that it's easy to lose track even if I do get a strong bearing on what's taking place. I still like the writing, and someday I'll catch up, but for now I don't have the motivation.

[Zennia Jorra: Toa of Slush]

I still love the story, always will. I'm only disappointed that the web serials update so slowly. And I know that they'll only last so long.

In the meantime, I still have my old books, movies, and comics to keep me warm...

And a megabluck-ton of fanart.

Edit: LOL 'megabluck...'

Edited September 3, 2010 by Zennia Jorra: Toa of Slush

[Refia]

A new chapter of "The Yesterday Quest" is up, and it's pretty satisfying. The answer to why our Psionics Toa is male is given, and I must admit, it's a good reason, Greg worked his way around that one very well. Naturally, it ends with the typical cliffhanger. Over a month or two, probably longer, we'll probably know how they escape. As usual.

[Nightmare]

Exactly. But what I love most is the introduction of the new character...

[ultra hamster]

Really? I wasn't very fond of third new entry.

The explanation for Orde I didn't really like at all.

The writing wasn't my favorite at all, Greg is better than this.

Meh, the Vorox character is interesting at least.

Yeah I wasn't all to fond of Yesterday Quest to begin with maybe It will get better ad the series goes on.

[Zarkan]

I quite liked this new chapter of Yesterday Quest. The explanation for Orde being male was really clever, and it's great to see Vorox getting a bigger role in the storyline (and inteligent ones at that). Oh, and a special mention has to be given to Kuabra's name: I absolutely love it. Sounds a lot like 2001 names, actually, which I'm sure is a good thing for at least a few people.

[Refia]

The explanation for Orde I didn't really like at all.

Knowing Greg, I'm just glad the explanation wasn't: "He's a Toa from an Alternate Universe were Psionic is a male element". Admit it, he's capable of writing that. =/

[ultra hamster]

Knowing Greg, I'm just glad the explanation wasn't: "He's a Toa from an Alternate Universe were Psionic is a male element". Admit it, he's capable of writing that. =/

Yeah that's a terrifying thought.

But that still doesn't make the explanation for Orde any better.

Edited September 22, 2010 by ultra hamster

[dviddy]

Disgustingly sexist explanation is disgustingly sexist.

[Cap'n Kopaka]

Disgustingly sexist explanation is disgustingly sexist.

That's what I thought at first, but just remember, here in the MU, male/female =/= physical, it's psychological, so it really means the "passive, artistic, pensive" ones are female while the "hot-headed go-getters" are basically male.

That's at least how I see it.

That or the GBs are sexist pricks :P

[ultra hamster]

I'm going to go with the second one.

[Zarkan]

Disgustingly sexist explanation is disgustingly sexist.

Yeah, because we know Bionicle has always given their female characters unique personalities instead of lumping them together in the "peaceful and wise" catergory. If anything, the existence of Greg-written characters like Roodaka, Krahka, and now Chiara proves that this statment is absolute nonsense, as if he was really sexist, then all his female characters would be like Gali or Nokama.

[dviddy]

Because the existence of other female stereotypes in a storyline (and an extreme minority of them to boot [ones that are all batshit insane or extremely aggressive (sexually [Roodaka] or violently [Chiara])]) somehow nullifies the sexism inherent in this explanation that is used as an example of wise and valid thinking.

Makes perfect sense to me!

Missing from this equation:

Actual average female personalities and traits.

[Cap'n Kopaka]

Because the existence of other female stereotypes in a storyline (and an extreme minority of them to boot [ones that are all batshit insane or extremely aggressive (sexually [Roodaka] or violently [Chiara])]) somehow nullifies the sexism inherent in this explanation that is used as an example of wise and valid thinking.

Makes perfect sense to me!

Missing from this equation:

Actual average female personalities and traits.

How about Lariska, Hahli, Macku, Dalu, etc.? I'm kinda annoyed at how Greg seemed to suddenly add in all the Gorasts and Sisters of the Skrall and such, as if he thought, "oh my god, I'm being sexist because my female characters are too passive", but there really aren't THAT many. And besides, the majority of characters are males so there's little to work with (and most male characters have extremely exaggerated personalities--either the "short fuse" who is really just someone who yells a lot or the "carefree guy" who's really somebody who nobody in real life would want to be around because he's that much of a troll. Am I denying that the storyline is lazy with the female roles and follows stereotypes a bit? No. I'm just not being all "OMG THE STORY IS MISOGYNISTIC!! THIS IS MESSING UP TODAY'S GENERATION."

I think people look too deeply into stuff sometimes.

[dviddy]

How about Lariska, Hahli, Macku, Dalu, etc.?

You mean murderous batshit crazy insane female stereotype, passive woman, sporty woman, and prophetessish?

Totally not stereotypes.

Not at all.

[ultra hamster]

Honestly if women could read thoughts, every one of us guys would be screwed.

[Zarkan]

You know Vader, you've basically just said that Bionicle has never had a female character that isn't a stereotype, and that includes the ones that were created before Greg even wrote the storyline.

Honestly, I think you are way overeacting. Pretty much any character in literature can be boiled down to a few words, if you leave out all the detail that makes them stand out from other "stereotypes." It's a fact of writing that, unless your characters are utterly generic and have no defining personality traits at all, then they are going to at least lean towards one of several basic personality types. As an example, some time ago I came up with a chart that basically classifies basically every villian ever concieved into one of nine different catergories, all based on their motive:

1. Megalomaniac (duh)

2. Greedy (also duh)

3. Romantic (loves someone and will do absolutely anything to get him or her)

4. Revenge-minded (again, duh)

5. Brute (villians who evil because he is brutal by nature)

6. Crusader (villians who think they are doing the right thing, when they are really bad)

7. Disadvantaged (villians who were lead into being evil by other villians, and actually aren't really evil deep down inside)

9. Exterminator (villians who are out to destroy all those who they feel are inferior)

8. Always Chaotic Evil (Villians who are evil simply because they enjoy doing evil things)

Now, take catergory 1, for example. Many villians that are the stars of epic fantasy or science fiction sagas fall under this trope, including Makuta, Sauron, Emperor Palpatine, and Lord Voldermort. However, does that mean that these villians are all exactly the same, with no defining factors that make them different from each other? Of course not, that's ridiculous. However, because they all have the same motive, they do share some similarities in the way they act. All of them, for example, have no qualms about killing massive numbers of living beings in order to obtain their goal, and all are masters at planning ahead. Oh, and all of them are also ridiculously cool, despite the fact that they are evil.

Good guys can probably be boiled down into a list as well, though it would probably be a bit bigger than the villian list. At their core, however, all good heroes share some things in commo: they have a code of morality, they are brave (or at least become brave by the end of the saga), and they are ultimately willing to put their life on the line if it means that they will benifit the greater good. You can say that, just because Harry Potter and Toa Lewa have these qualities, that they are essentially the same basic character - and you'd be right. However, unless that is as far as you go with their characterization, you can't say that they are the same character period. It's like saying an apple and a mango are the exact same kind of fruit just because they are juicy and red in color. It's like saying a Toyota and a Jeep are the same kind of car just because they are both small wheeled vehicles that can seat no more than a few people. It's like... well, you get the picture.

The point is, defaming characters as "murderous crazy insane female stereotypes" or "prophetessishs" is not truly giving the whole picture, as there's much more to a character than simply their basic personality. Small differences in dialogue, emotion, actions, etc, can utterly separate one character from another, and when a whole bunch of small but significant details add up, you have entirely different personalities. Just because two characters get angry a lot doesn't mean they are not a bit different from each other. Some characters get angry only at evil, some characters get angry whenever they feel they've been wronged, some characters get angry when they don't get their way, and some characters just get angry because they like getting angry. Same goes for any other personality trait, whether it be their hobbies, the kinds of things they laugh at, or the amount of pain they are able to tolerate. Again, it's the details that matter, and things like dialogue and description help to incoporate these details.

Now don't get me wrong: I know that some characters are stereotypes, and nothing more. I just recently watched an episode of Avatar: The Last Airbender called "The Great Divide," and it stood out to me because of how different it was in it's characterizations. That's to say, as opposed to most of the other episodes (which I have really enjoyed), all the new characters were nothing more than cliches. One group of people were neat-freaks, and the other were slobs. You never got anything more than that, and thus you could basically predict what each "character" would say next. Not so with the vast majority of the other episodes, where the main cast and even some minor characters were developed and grew out of their basic personality archetypes. So, while I hated "The Great Divide," I've still been generally loving the show, as have many other people who have watched the series.

Anyway, I really think you need to calm down, Darth Vader. It often seems that when you talk about the Bionicle storyline, your posts emmit an almost furious tone. It's like you can't stand to hear people say they like the storyline, just because you feel that it is an objective fact that it sucks. This is not the way to engage in a discussion, and it makes it hard for people like me to converse with you (even knowing that you still are generally a really great guy). If reading or talking about the Bionicle storyline really generates such a virulent response from you, then just don't read or talk about it. But seriously, I know you can talk about it without seeming overly angry, cause you're not really an angry person at heart. If you were, then I doubt you'd still be a staff member on BZP and generally loved by the forum's population. I think the phrase was "just love, don't hate," and that includes more than just relationships. Is it really reasonable to "hate" the storyline of a childrens toy? You can dislike it, sure, and even say that it is terrible. But to say that you "hate" it implies that it harmed you in some personal way. Rasonable people don't hate other people unless they truly have done something despicable, and even then it's still better to not express your hate with the same amount of force. Otherwise, you're really no better than what you put down.

But come on, I know you don't really "hate" the storyline. You think it's utterly cliche, filled with "poorly disguised Marvel and DC characters, with cheesy comic book powers, cheesy comic book locations, and a whole bunch of deux-ex-machinas." That's not true hate, just dislike, and it's a perfectly acceptable reaction. I feel the same way about certain things, particularly the very comic books you say Bionicle borrowed most of its story ideas from. We just have to not let it get control of our emotions, to the point where it seems like we're emotionally harmed by something simply existing. It's not like it's a death-row crime for a story to be cheesy, or for someone to actually claim that storyline is good. If it was, I think most people would chose to be a pig-sty feeder before they decided to become a writer. And thus, the world would not be nearly as interesting of a place.

Okay, I think that's probably enough for now.

[Cap'n Kopaka]

Thanks, Grevious, for taking the words out of my mouth and turning it into a long rant that would have taken forever to type.

Moreover, with overreaction like that you could take ANY female person, fictional or non, and say they fit a stereotype. Any MALE character, fictional or non, actually. If you stretch it far enough, like you just have ("Prophetessish?" Really?). But I know people like you never back out when you have the opportunity to cry misogyny, so this is where I step down. I'm not going to argue any further about the roles of female characters in a Lego line on a Lego message board. We all know that would be a grand waste of time.

So... yeah. That's all I'm gonna say on the subject.

:S

[dviddy]

Blah blah blah.

The point I was making is not that the female characters have always been absurd gender stereotypes (though they mostly have), the point is that the explanation for Orde's gender is patently and inherently sexist. Which it is. Not only that, but the way it is written is as if "oh yeah, these absurd gender stereotypes are obviously true, and any reader will see the wisdom in these actions, no big deal". But it is a big deal, as any of the female fans I have talked to are any indication (or the male ones who are, you know, actually aware of real female personalities and identities). Not to mention Greg's explanation to write off his sexism is absurd and even more derogatory than the sexism itself was to begin with.

The gender stereotypes have always been bad, especially when we only had one tribe that was female out of six for the majority of the line. But the blatant sexism exhibited in this latest update crosses the line, especially when coupled with Greg's weak-megablocks "explanation".

[Cap'n Kopaka]

I love your sarcasm. You're just the coolest guy, sticking up for women like that. Go, Mr. Feminist! I'm sure it's totally not degrading at all to say "all the female people you talked to about this, or the apparently non-chauvanistic pigs (such a rare breed, but you my friend are one of them)" were totally offended by something you saw on a children's site that's not read by anyone.

You're really making yourself look cool by grouping all females together, saying they should be and are offended by something like a bunch of robots being assigned gender roles because they're peaceful or warlike. But hey what do I know? Even though I'm, you know, somebody who went through major gender crises, I am a sexist megablocks, and you brought me a step closer to enlightenment! Through Lego! How noble of you!

And hey, who cares that Orde, a male character, is a total savage because he's male? I mean, sure it's practically KKK-level hate for me to bring that up in a conversation in this modern world, but it's something to think about, right?

And I think it's totally out of line that there are 5/6 more male characters in a toy line that builds action figures aimed at boys! I mean, sure, DC and Marvel and everyone else does it, but that doesn't mean Lego needs to stoop to their level. After all, these are more than just children's toys here, they're a social statement on how Women Are Inferior To Men And The Evil Media Is Meant To Destroy The Lives Of Women Through Degrading Them At A Young Age!

You know, I should write a whole article on this. Then maybe my internet-friends can flock in and tell me how cool I am. Then I'll leave and do nothing to, you know, try to make social reforms that really matter, you know, like things that help real people out. Because looking cool by acting like you're a nonconformist internet vigilante is always better than even speaking your beliefs in real life.

Thanks, Darth Vader (whose name, I might add, is straight from a series chock full of sexist stereotypes... oop, you'd better change that! You don't want people to think you're a fan of a story with more male than female characters, with a snarky and independent princess stereotype character. That could get out of hand. But who am I kidding, a devout feminist like you wouldn't actually enjoy something as degrading as Star Wars. Why, your name must be a Jonathan Swift-level satire on social change! A regular Modest Proposal!), for helping me out.

Now please leave. I have better things to do than type out sarcastic blocks of text because of how ignorant you're making me look through your sarcastic, smug little posts.

Ciao~

[ultra hamster]

Wow that's quite the mouthful from you guys.

It's not really that I find the explanation sexist, and more that I just find it sounding incredibly stupid. It just feels that Greg is making things up completely as he goes, all of a sudden made Orde a male and then is like,"Hmmmmm, how I am I going to explain this?"

It doesn't sound well thought out at all.

I know Greg has been known to improvise, but this just is terrible.

The people on BZP are eating it up though.

Edited September 24, 2010 by ultra hamster