Emerald Night Extra cars

[Duq]

Unfortunately, as Cagri said, carriages on their own have never sold well. I guess Lego had a few options:

• Just an engine
  
• The current set
  
• Engine with two carriages
  
• An engine set and a carriage set
  

An engine with two carriages would have been a lot more expensive which would have had an impact on sales figures (trust Lego to have done their homework on that).

Two sets, one with the engine and one with one or two carriages, would have 'cost' another slot in the Lego Direct catalogue. As Cagri said they simply couldn't justify a train carriage vs Medieval market, or Fire brigade.

If they had only released an engine there would have been an outcry for carriages which would bring us back to the previous point...

[Lolas]

What do you think about alternative version (sorry, no roof):

White windows are much cheaper then tan...

[fred67]

I had made explanations for this extra car issue but I guess it wasn't posted in this topic or some people didn't get it.

...

TLG tried to come up with train cars several times in the past and as we all know they always failed to sell. You are expecting too much. If you need an extra car, you will have to buy a whole Emerald Night and sell the engine. I'm sorry but that is the case. If there isn't enough demand, there won't be any supply for it. That's how things work.

It doesn't help when you don't advertise your sets, only have them for sale at LEGO stores (which didn't even exist until nearly the time 9V was being discontinued), or obscurely online.

It's almost as if they WANTED trains for hobbyists to fail.

Then their argument about needing a lower price point to target for kids simply didn't work... the new sets are just as expensive, more-so if you're trying to adapt something like the EN to PF.

Model railroading is a big hobby that supports dozens of manufacturers in a half dozen scales, I came to LEGO as an adult BECAUSE of the trains, I was an N-scale hobbyist for YEARS before moving to LEGO because I didn't even know about the "real" hobbyist versions of the LEGO trains (9V) until they'd been out for 10 years already.... and I bought model railroading magazines and everything, not one advertisement!

I bought my first LEGO train set (Railway Express) because I found it on sale at a Sam's Club (a discount warehouse club, for those not in North America), of all places, around Christmas in 2001 or 2002. I bought two sets because I didn't know where I'd be able to buy extra rail or motors if I wanted to build my own.

How can they NOT make money? People are paying $7+ for a single piece of USED straight 9V rail. They're paying $30+ for USED motors. If someone can't figure out how to make good money on that, they're not trying.

Don't get me wrong; LEGO can make whatever decisions they want. If they don't want to do trains, they don't have to; if they don't think it's worth it, that's fine, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean we can't come here and express our opinions (even ones that have been expressed many times already) and talk about how short sighted we think they're being.

What they've shown, the hard way, is that people cannot count on them to support their hobby. When my last 9V motor burns out, I'll be going to HO because I know it will be around for a LONG time; it's not possible for a single company to pull the rug out from under me after I've spent thousands of dollars on HO products. And when I do that, I'll stop buying things like the Grand Emporium; the Green Grocer; the Firehouse... I've spent more on non-train LEGO in the past year because of LEGO trains.

I know I'm not the typical LEGO buyer, and so does LEGO, that's fine for them. All I can do, then, is express my disappointment and move on... to something besides LEGO for my train hobby.

[Matt Dawson]

How can they NOT make money? People are paying $7+ for a single piece of USED straight 9V rail. They're paying $30+ for USED motors. If someone can't figure out how to make good money on that, they're not trying.

One point: just where have you been buying your lego from? I've obtained 3 used dark grey striaghts, each less than $3.50 on Bricklink. And I bought my motor for under $26, including both decorative sides - you just have to spread where you buy things...

What do you think about alternative version (sorry, no roof):

White windows are much cheaper then tan...

Nice! I actually prefer this colourscheme to that of the official set. Though why you've used tan 1x1 plates for the 45 degree decorative pieces I don't know - they look out of place.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Matt Dawson

[fred67]

One point: just where have you been buying your lego from? I've obtained 3 used dark grey striaghts, each less than $3.50 on Bricklink. And I bought my motor for under $26, including both decorative sides - you just have to spread where you buy things...

Well, yeah, if I want to buy 1 piece of track I can get it cheaper. When I'm buying other things, I always check; it's not a very good way to build up stock, though, when you add in shipping/handling. The motors, too... you can probably find one for less than $30, but the vast majority are listed for quite a bit more than that. When you factor in shipping and handling, unless you're buying a lot of other things at a store, it's not worth it.

Nice! I actually prefer this colourscheme to that of the official set. Though why you've used tan 1x1 plates for the 45 degree decorative pieces I don't know - they look out of place.

Agreed... I don't know if I prefer it, but it's not bad at all. I've build a lot of cars (Santa Fe cars) and had to make a few substitutions... the bricks they use for the roof, in particular (gray curved slopes = ridiculously expensive). I actually came up with three alternatives - two in gray using other types of curved slopes, but finally settled on the same piece in black.

Here's one of the alternates (forgive me for going off topic, but it seems that alternatives to building the actual sets might really be on topic):

Four sections like this (where the green is needs to be gray on the two ends) will make a complete roof. It makes the roof one plate width higher.

Edited March 16, 2010 by fred67

[Bricktrix]

It doesn't help when you don't advertise your sets, only have them for sale at LEGO stores (which didn't even exist until nearly the time 9V was being discontinued), or obscurely online.

It's almost as if they WANTED trains for hobbyists to fail.

Then their argument about needing a lower price point to target for kids simply didn't work... the new sets are just as expensive, more-so if you're trying to adapt something like the EN to PF.

Model railroading is a big hobby that supports dozens of manufacturers in a half dozen scales, I came to LEGO as an adult BECAUSE of the trains, I was an N-scale hobbyist for YEARS before moving to LEGO because I didn't even know about the "real" hobbyist versions of the LEGO trains (9V) until they'd been out for 10 years already.... and I bought model railroading magazines and everything, not one advertisement!

I bought my first LEGO train set (Railway Express) because I found it on sale at a Sam's Club (a discount warehouse club, for those not in North America), of all places, around Christmas in 2001 or 2002. I bought two sets because I didn't know where I'd be able to buy extra rail or motors if I wanted to build my own.

How can they NOT make money? People are paying $7+ for a single piece of USED straight 9V rail. They're paying $30+ for USED motors. If someone can't figure out how to make good money on that, they're not trying.

Don't get me wrong; LEGO can make whatever decisions they want. If they don't want to do trains, they don't have to; if they don't think it's worth it, that's fine, that's their prerogative. But that doesn't mean we can't come here and express our opinions (even ones that have been expressed many times already) and talk about how short sighted we think they're being.

What they've shown, the hard way, is that people cannot count on them to support their hobby. When my last 9V motor burns out, I'll be going to HO because I know it will be around for a LONG time; it's not possible for a single company to pull the rug out from under me after I've spent thousands of dollars on HO products. And when I do that, I'll stop buying things like the Grand Emporium; the Green Grocer; the Firehouse... I've spent more on non-train LEGO in the past year because of LEGO trains.

I know I'm not the typical LEGO buyer, and so does LEGO, that's fine for them. All I can do, then, is express my disappointment and move on... to something besides LEGO for my train hobby.

Very well said Fred!...Hello TLG, are you listening?

The prices that the original 12v seperate sleeper carriages are going for is shocking!

Edited March 16, 2010 by Bricktrix

[wmanidi]

Some body should buy 100 Emerald Night sets and sell the wagons and part out the rest of the parts.

Wmanidi

[mrblue]

I think that if TLG doesn't want to make available a set with an extra car (maybe with two or three options to build it like the santa fe ones), they should at least make train windows in tan color with their glass (!!!), and of course other bricks and other colors available through "pick a brick". This way they would make some more people happy.

Anyway, can just modify the available car to a special car, like restaurant car, and made some more in other color, like the one someone suggested some posts before mine.

Edited March 19, 2010 by mrblue

[AMuller396]

I think that if TLG doesn't want to make available a set with an extra car (maybe with two or three options to build it like the santa fe ones), they should at least make train windows in tan color with their galss (!!!), and of course other bricks and other colors available through "pick a brick". This way they would make some more people happy.

I agree, the least Lego can do is provide the hard to find parts such as the tan windown on PAB.

Why dont they? Why are the parts so limited?

[escortmad79]

Some body should buy 100 Emerald Night sets and sell the wagons and part out the rest of the parts.

Wmanidi

Go right ahead!

[Jason Anderson]

Wish I'd seen Lolas' and Fred67's ideas before I spent all that money on roof tiles. However, for my solution for a much cheaper passenger car, I used different windows. These are only partially built, but you get the idea.

Edited March 20, 2010 by Jason Anderson

[wmanidi]

TLG is not selling extra cars because they don't sell very well. I would by them

[fred67]

TLG is not selling extra cars because they don't sell very well. I would by them

They don't sell very well because few people even know about them.

If they had SETS on display, and Emerald Nights on display NEXT TO THE SETS, and extra cars on display NEXT TO THE Emerald Night, and they did this at stores BESIDES b&m LEGO stores, they would sell.

Yes, I realize the problem... limited shelf space, but that they don't sell well is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What I think might be interesting is if TLG targetted HOBBY stores with their train sets.

Edit: so parent goes into the hobby store looking for a set for their child, no knowing what scale is appropriate, and seeing LEGO trains... then it's "Oh, my kid already plays with LEGO, this would be GREAT!" And simply by having done that, they can buy the basic set, but will also know that those other add-ons (track, Emerald Night, etc.) actually exist.

Edit 2: moreover, I think that could give TLG incentive to reproduce things like the trees bushes they used to sell, and perhaps more parts like "traditional" model trains have.

Edited March 31, 2010 by fred67

[peterab]

They don't sell very well because few people even know about them.

If they had SETS on display, and Emerald Nights on display NEXT TO THE SETS, and extra cars on display NEXT TO THE Emerald Night, and they did this at stores BESIDES b&m LEGO stores, they would sell.

Yes, I realize the problem... limited shelf space, but that they don't sell well is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

What I think might be interesting is if TLG targetted HOBBY stores with their train sets.

Edit: so parent goes into the hobby store looking for a set for their child, no knowing what scale is appropriate, and seeing LEGO trains... then it's "Oh, my kid already plays with LEGO, this would be GREAT!" And simply by having done that, they can buy the basic set, but will also know that those other add-ons (track, Emerald Night, etc.) actually exist.

Edit 2: moreover, I think that could give TLG incentive to reproduce things like the trees bushes they used to sell, and perhaps more parts like "traditional" model trains have.

The Santa Fe cars were available in Australia at normal retail stores, so I would guess they were available in other larger markets also. They were well designed sets, they went along with a very popular engine. They _did not_ sell well. After the initial stock they dissapeared from retailers, I guess because the retailers didnt want to stock slow selling items. In fact they sat around in stock on S@H for 3 years untill they were put on sale for $20.

I'm not sure TLG is interested in the niche hobby stores. The difficulty and cost of stocking them would probably eat any profit margin on trains. Since they have less customers than the big retailers their sales are probably also less. Also many of their customers view lego as toys not models

[DaCheese]

I have to say Fred I've thought a lot of what you've said about Lego's handling of their Trains range for a long time. Like I've said on here before, how can you expect strong sales from a product line you're not promoting?

[fred67]

I have to say Fred I've thought a lot of what you've said about Lego's handling of their Trains range for a long time. Like I've said on here before, how can you expect strong sales from a product line you're not promoting?

Yeah... well, as others have mentioned, perhaps they didn't sell all that well even on display; but still, the LEGO store seems like a very limited way to distribute something like that.

And I believe hobby stores would work well... not all hobby stores are tiny little mom and pop shops; several around here have a huge selection of hobbies and at least one large one near me sells other LEGO sets.

I guess it depends who you want to market to... are you marketing toys to children, or trains to model railroad fans. What happened with LEGO turned out to more of the latter and less of the former.

[peterab]

Yeah... well, as others have mentioned, perhaps they didn't sell all that well even on display; but still, the LEGO store seems like a very limited way to distribute something like that.

And I believe hobby stores would work well... not all hobby stores are tiny little mom and pop shops; several around here have a huge selection of hobbies and at least one large one near me sells other LEGO sets.

I guess it depends who you want to market to... are you marketing toys to children, or trains to model railroad fans. What happened with LEGO turned out to more of the latter and less of the former.

Very few hobby stores are large chains, certainly none the size of Walmart. Lego is a huge multi-national, and the scale of the markets that are attractive to them are huge. Australia is an insignificant market for _all_ Lego because we only have 20 million or so people. All our independant toy shops buy through the same buying group, because TLG only wants to deal with one. If our hobby shops wanted to stock trains they could. The fact they don't suggests they are not attractive from a profitability point of view.

When you suggest marketing to model railroad fans rather than kids, I think thats what the Emerald Night represents to some extent, but they have to be AFOLS as well, since most model railroad fans instinctively view Lego as toys. I hope you can see that the much smaller AFOL rail fan market may bring with it more restrictions than the far broader market of kids who like trains. I hope the Emerald Night is a success, in fact I've bought two as parts packs, but given it is an experiment as an exclusive model, and past AFOL style train experiments, such as the Santa Fe coaches, and the Hobby Train haven't been a great success if the fact they were heavilly discounted is any indicator, I'm not surprised that TLG was cautious with it.

I'm sure TLG has noted that extra coaches are wanted by fans, I hope in the future exclusive trains will include an engine and at least two or three coaches. I'm happy to trust that if TLG doesn't bring out individual train cars and say its because the sales in the past haven't been good, that they know better than I what they're talking about.

[broomhandle]

What do you think about alternative version (sorry, no roof):

White windows are much cheaper then tan...

how much did this cost you to make thru bricklink? i dig this color. and much cheaper. now somebody is thinking....

[Lolas]

how much did this cost you to make thru bricklink? i dig this color. and much cheaper. now somebody is thinking....

I don't know cost of all items, but you can save mostly on windows:

10 psc of white windows cost total 3-4 USD

10 pcs of tan windows cost total 12-20USD

Small windows are more important because you need only 4pcs per car and they are not very expensive, but you can still save money:

4 pcs of white small windows cost total about 0,6USD

4 pcs of tan small windows cost total about 2,6USD

Personally I prefer white-green cars more then tan-brown :-)

[broomhandle]

way cool. why are these train parts so expensive on BL. its a conspiracy! :)

[MightySlickPancake]

What do you think about alternative version (sorry, no roof):

White windows are much cheaper then tan...

^nice, but have you thought about replacing the green and black parts on the side for blue like here and here?

Not sure if this design would be cheaper but I think the colour scheme works a bit better.

Thanks, cb

[Lolas]

^nice, but have you thought about replacing the green and black parts on the side for blue like here and here?

Not sure if this design would be cheaper but I think the colour scheme works a bit better.

Thanks, cb

It's good idea, but I used dark green to make cars a bit similar to engine. I'm afraid white-blue cars would look bit strange with Emerald Night - but it's only my opinion ;-)

Price doesn't matter in this case because dark green elements are more expensive then reddish brown. Weak point of white-green version is that there's no possibility to built door with dark green (if you don't want to re-design it) but black looks ok for me.

[legotrainfan]

For those who are interested:

One of the most precious elements of the Emerald Night is the tan window of the passenger waggon (as you all know). I ordered 20 of them by phoning TLC. I've calculated the price for one single frame for you guys: It's 0.64 euro. The price for one window glass that fits exactly into these frames is 0.39 euro. But I didn't get the rare blay roof elements for the waggon. TLC didn't have them any more. I want to build two additionial waggons for my Emerald Night.