Lego, bring back the alternate builds and "Just Imagine" slo

[Forresto]

After reading def's review on the sith infiltrator set, I bacame nostalgic for many of the instruction booklet's other features. The comics, but mainly the alternate builds. We used to see these a lot in the past on all the different liscened themes, but sadly we don't anymore. Now there could be economical reasons or just the lack of time in the set's production, I don't know. It is however one of the representations of Lego's motto "Just Imagine", that we have lost. Lego is all for imagination so where is that slogan? Lego Star Wars was the forerunner for all these cool features but with the newer sets we never get these anymore.

I created this topic to see what you guys think Lego should do about this.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Forresto

[Corvus]

I think this should go in the general forum.

But I agree- while a lot of alternate models can look very silly, it's nice to have them there to encourage them to build. Nowadays, however, it'd be much harder to do, with how much technic and specific pieces there are.

I'd prefer alternate models to be on the back of the instructions. I prefer the back of the box to show me as much stuff about the set I'm buying as possible. However, having the alternate builds does a good job of showing pieces.

[Ralph_S]

Building an alternate model in some respect is what LEGO is all about. the whole strength of the material is that you can make different things with the same elements. It's probably part of the reason why I really like creator sets. They go back to what I'd see as LEGO's roots.

However, I know LEGO had a lot of trouble with alternate models shown merely on the box and not in the instructions. While I personally liked the challenge of recreating a particular model using just a few pictures (I used to occasionally do that as a child), for a lot of (young) builders it was frustrating and lead to their parents being dissatisfied with the product and even complaining to LEGO. As far as I know that is the reason why they stopped putting pictures of alternate models in the instruction booklets/ on the boxes.

I myself rarely build anything following instructions (I'd rather build my own stuff) but if there are alternate models in a set, instructions for them are a necessity.

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited February 1, 2010 by Ralph_S

[Hewman]

I think this should go in the general forum.

I agree but I think it's a good topic. Strangely, licensed themes are the one group of sets where lack of alternative models doesn't worry me, as I like sets to match source material as closely as possible and this is hard to do within a licensed theme with an alternate model. But I would love alternate models to be shown for all non-licensed themes, I used to love them as a kid, trying to put together a space base from the pieces of a space ship or vice versa. Occasionally the alternates were even better than the original model. Like has been mentioned, alternate models would probably be better placed with instructions, also a few major steps like appeared in ideas books would be great too, particularly for kids who aren't even sure how to start building the great alternate model they can see.

[Siegfried]

I was going to quote Ralph_S, but I couldn't pick what part!

In short though, I'm happy with how things are. I don't think kids need too many ideas to "Just Imagine". If anything, I wish TLG would make another Ideas Book.

(I'm moving this to general.)

My votes were;

I don't think TLC should bring back alternate builds, bottom line.

The instructions only!

I honestly don't care either way.

[Clone OPatra]

Hmm, I'd never thought about the parents complaining thing before.

Personally, I like the nostalgia factor of alternate builds, but I think I like it as just nostalgia.

Most of the alternate builds shown looked like utter crap, especially for Star Wars, but even for things like Castle and Adventurers, most of the time. If I were a good MOCer, I could come up with something way better than the ridiculous alternate models, but they were fun in being ridiculous.

So really, I don't care too much that they're gone. They were fun and goofy when they were there, but mostly they were just a good laugh.

And "Just Imagine," well, it's better than "Play Well," but I also don't care much about not seeing that slogan. I though it was always telling me to just imagine some crappy alternate models.

[prateek]

I think we need these alternates to inspire kids of the new generation to input their own imagination istead of playing with the main build for 15 minutes and leaving it for eternity

[CP5670]

It was fun to look at the box models, but as others have said I don't think they are a huge loss. The box models for most sets sucked and it was only the largest sets that actually had anything worth building. Some of those large ones were indeed memorable though. We still get alternate models in Creator and Technic, which have full instructions and have obviously had more thought put into them than the old box models.

In short though, I'm happy with how things are. I don't think kids need too many ideas to "Just Imagine". If anything, I wish TLG would make another Ideas Book.

I don't think we will see any more physical idea books with the internet these days, but it would be good to see something like that on the Lego website. I've been building various things from the old Technic idea books lately and they have lots of great concepts, some of which never appeared in actual sets.

If I were a good MOCer, I could come up with something way better than the ridiculous alternate models, but they were fun in being ridiculous.

So really, I don't care too much that they're gone. They were fun and goofy when they were there, but mostly they were just a good laugh.

Speaking of goofy models, I was looking at the 697 idea book a few days ago (the last one they made, in 1997). Check out this and this. This is probably the craziest official Lego scene that I have ever come across.

[Brickus]

Yeah I do miss those old comics and alternate models, although I never built them they are good little incentives for kids to use their imagination.

[Siegfried]

I don't think we will see any more physical idea books with the internet these days, but it would be good to see something like that on the Lego website.

I'd be happy with that. The problem with MOCs is that often the parts range over about 20 years and thus they aren't buidable by just anyone. The ideas books for the most part just combined a few sets. (Many of the Technic ones were different though!)

This is probably the craziest official Lego scene that I have ever come across.

Yes.

[Piranha]

Cool topic

I voted:

Yes they should

Both

I really don't care

[RileyC]

I used to try and build them when I was younger but there was always the insides you couldnt see and it got really annoying if you couldnt produce the alternative build. Just Imagine was an all right slogan I dont really mind if they bring it back or not.

[Peppermint_M]

It's all interactive these days and plenty of sets have a link to their website on Lego.com which is full of alternate and two set combination instructions. There aren't long comics in the instruction manuals because there are full length animated features on the internet.

Simply put, the Internet has out paid to any need for extras on or in the box (apart from a leaflet all about joining the Lego Club online). It costs less, cuts down on complaints and helps Lego see their popular themes (i.e. Those theme sites that are for the most popular have the highest traffic).

All this said, Sluban has alternate models on the back of the box. Carrying on the trend of being a bit wacky because they only use parts from the set.

[Lordofdragonss]

I agree with you! Lego should bring back alternate builds on instructions and Just Imagine... slogan!

And they should bring back this awesome big sceens on catalogues- the newest scenes are full of photoshoping and full of ugly ""ctrl c, ctrl v" job...

[Legoist]

I think they should bring alternate models back because Lego is all about building, and alternate models are the next step after building from instructions and before designing something entirely original.

I don't think alternate models should be particularly beautiful. Those in the 80s sets were very often blunt and rude, but still they were good fun (and exercise!) for kids. TLC has stated that they don't want to do alternate models because they cost a lot of work (and sometimes extra pieces), but in my opinion they had in mind what they do with the Creator theme, where you get at least 3 but sometimes even 6 alternate models, all of which with instructions, and more or less all should be cool... I think for all other themes they could just provide simpler models that can be built with the pieces already included for the main model, and without instructions.

I think it would be enough to display the alternate models on the back of the box, this should advertise the "re-building" value of Lego and not only the "playability" value. We have oversized boxes anyway, so there should be plenty of space (just ditch the pictures about the numbered bags, you don't need to see these until you buy the set).

I don't care very much for the slogan otherwise.

And they should bring back this awesome big sceens on catalogues- the newest scenes are full of photoshoping and full of ugly ""ctrl c, ctrl v" job...

That's true. But in my opinion the current catalogs often have cool screens, the problem is that they are full of custom stuff which is not on sale.

I was recently speaking to a friend who used to be a KFOL long ago and now has children, and I was suggesting to introduce Lego to his kids. Since he had the feeling that Lego sets were nowadays much worse than in the 80s (I am sure he had in mind the late 90s - early 00s atrocious sets), I showed him the catalog. He kept saying "cool" at every City page... pointing to some building in the background that is NOT a set on sale!

And I think the TLG representative have recently mentioned that they don't show the Cafe Corner anymore alongside the newest modular building because customers hate to see something cool and then being told it's not on sale... Maybe they should do the same for regular catalogs too: one picture of all the sets in each subtheme together, and then one big City picture with everything currently on sale, without additions.

[Fugazi]

I remember back to my very first sets, I spent hours taking in the back of my boxes and trying to figure out how to build the alternative models. I think they were a great incentive to break apart the main model and try out different things. Some of the alternate designs were wacky or unrealistic, but it didn't matter at all. I think definitely LEGO should bring them back, because not all the parents and kids realize the flexibility of Lego bricks. But, they should also provide a big disclaimer on the box that "no instructions are provided for alternate models, use your imagination!"... That should safeguard them from disappointing parents and kids, and designers won't have to spend so much time on drawing up alternate instructions.

[legotrainfan]

I voted:

Depending on whether they're good, TLC should bring back alternate builds.

They should be in the instructions and on the box.

A return of the slogan "Just imagine" would be nice. I think it describes best what you can do with LEGO bricks: Use your imagination.

I really liked the alternate builds on boxes in the past. Sometimes it annoyed me tremendously that there were no instructions for them included.

[Big Cam]

Great thread idea, I got my votes in. I think this is a good idea since those pesky models always were fun and stressful to make.

[Aanchir]

I had a hard time voting, namely because of something I've observed since LEGO stopped marketing alternate models on the sets: the alternate models, for the most part, have gotten better.

Seriously, one needs only look at some of the alternate models marketed in Brickmaster magazine, and compare them with those marketed on the sets. The Power Miners sets from last year had alternate "combiner models" on the backs of the sets, and they were usually rather ridiculous. Meanwhile, Brickmaster featured some much cooler and more attractive alternate models for the same theme, as well as other recent themes (like Agents).

Meanwhile, some themes (like Creator) still have alternate models on the box and the instructions. The Cool Convertible amazed me because not only was it a wonderful model with two wonderful alternates in the instructions, but furthermore an additional alternate model of equal quality was put in Brickmaster! For this reason, I voted that LEGO should bring back alternate models only if they're good, although technically the best of the alternate models never really left us.

I voted that alternate models should be on the back of the box only, mostly because I thought the Outrider model on the back of some Star Wars set-- maybe the second Millenium Falcon or the Imperial Star Destroyer-- was simply epic. But if there were an "Online/In Brickmaster Magazine" option I'd have stuck with that, since it would mean better quality but be less of a "tease" than back-of-the-box pics.

As for the "Just Imagine" slogan, I really don't care either way. In my opinion, though, LEGO is about a lot more than just imagination-- it's a technical challenge that requires a lot of practical know-how, and my best MOCs have not necessarily been my most imaginative.

[vexorian]

I had a hard time voting, namely because of something I've observed since LEGO stopped marketing alternate models on the sets: the alternate models, for the most part, have gotten better.

Seriously, one needs only look at some of the alternate models marketed in Brickmaster magazine, and compare them with those marketed on the sets. The Power Miners sets from last year had alternate "combiner models" on the backs of the sets, and they were usually rather ridiculous. Meanwhile, Brickmaster featured some much cooler and more attractive alternate models for the same theme, as well as other recent themes (like Agents).

Meanwhile, some themes (like Creator) still have alternate models on the box and the instructions. The Cool Convertible amazed me because not only was it a wonderful model with two wonderful alternates in the instructions, but furthermore an additional alternate model of equal quality was put in Brickmaster! For this reason, I voted that LEGO should bring back alternate models only if they're good, although technically the best of the alternate models never really left us.

I voted that alternate models should be on the back of the box only, mostly because I thought the Outrider model on the back of some Star Wars set-- maybe the second Millenium Falcon or the Imperial Star Destroyer-- was simply epic. But if there were an "Online/In Brickmaster Magazine" option I'd have stuck with that, since it would mean better quality but be less of a "tease" than back-of-the-box pics.

As for the "Just Imagine" slogan, I really don't care either way. In my opinion, though, LEGO is about a lot more than just imagination-- it's a technical challenge that requires a lot of practical know-how, and my best MOCs have not necessarily been my most imaginative.

I wanted to point out that brickmaster is restricted to some few countries, so I'd prefer the fun wasn't exclusive to it, or that it was an online version, maybe?

I think that even if alternate models in instructions were cool or not. it is always nice to remind the person that got the set that she may take it down apart and build something else with it...

I think that if I was a parent nowadays I would buy only creator sets until the child is old enough to buy his own sets of the theme he wants...

Edited February 2, 2010 by vexorian

[def]

I like them, hence I hype them in my reviews. I think the parents complaining explanation is weak. It's an image, not a promise. But I can believe they got complaints about not having instructions.

[Clone OPatra]

I can believe that some parents complained, though it could not be a legal issue since LEGO actually put "instructions included for main model" on some boxes (like one in an upcoming review of mine).

Still, I'm going to be optimistic and think kids will still decide to rebuild the set into something else, if they like building things.

[Rick]

Still, I'm going to be optimistic and think kids will still decide to rebuild the set into something else, if they like building things.

I remember being inspired by alternate models, catalogs, and idea books. So even for the creative kids, it can certainly spur creativity.

As an AFOL it doesn't have top-priority to me, especially considering it can only make sets more expensive. Also, the reduced variety of pieces in current sets compared to 1980s/1990s sets makes making attractive alternate models difficult. Although the bigger sets could definitely be candidates for alternates. Alternate instructions for these could easily be made available through the internet.

Meanwhile, some themes (like Creator) still have alternate models on the box and the instructions. The Cool Convertible amazed me because not only was it a wonderful model with two wonderful alternates in the instructions, but furthermore an additional alternate model of equal quality was put in Brickmaster! For this reason, I voted that LEGO should bring back alternate models only if they're good, although technically the best of the alternate models never really left us.

Creator sets indeed are a 'special case'. The piece selection of these models is also much more diverse and the sets include less specialized pieces. The availability of instructions for a bunch of different models seems to be one of the main selling points/characteristics of Creator sets.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Rick

[Darth Legolas]

I hate it when alternate models take up the entire back of the box, as I like to see more than just an image of what I'm getting, but if the instructions are online, I'd never bother.

[Big Cam]

I like them, hence I hype them in my reviews. I think the parents complaining explanation is weak. It's an image, not a promise. But I can believe they got complaints about not having instructions.

I never went as far as to complain, but I remember getting frustrated as a kid, not being able to buid some of the alternate models, because well, I was a little kid.