The Future of the 9V System

[gylman]

3) Lego technic has exactly the same problem. I just talked to a shopkeeper and he told me that he's not going to buy Lego technic anymore because it just doesn't sell anymore. the lego stuff for older kids, like trains, technic,... has just fallen off the radar... At the same time, lego has indicated they will focus on smaller kids, aged between 1-12. all the rest, including us, afols, are just small market sections not really worth the investment... That hurts, but it is the way it is...

Count sneffie, you're making me cry :-(

Technic last 3 years is the best it's been in a decade.

I hope they are getting decent sales and keep it going.

Do we have any hard information on this?

[snefroe]

3) Lego technic has exactly the same problem. I just talked to a shopkeeper and he told me that he's not going to buy Lego technic anymore because it just doesn't sell anymore. the lego stuff for older kids, like trains, technic,... has just fallen off the radar... At the same time, lego has indicated they will focus on smaller kids, aged between 1-12. all the rest, including us, afols, are just small market sections not really worth the investment... That hurts, but it is the way it is...

Count sneffie, you're making me cry :-(

Technic last 3 years is the best it's been in a decade.

I hope they are getting decent sales and keep it going.

Do we have any hard information on this?

I don't think we do, but let's face it, Lego technic, as trains, has lost lots of its prestige... a small section of fans moved to "Mindstorms", many older technic fans never accepted the new style of technic and disappeared all together, several shops got stuck with sw technic sets, ... it just looks as if the technic world has seriously decreased over the years...

[Section8]

By not making room for 9V in their stores, lego can move more products from different lines, make more money overall, and possibly be able to sustain the small-but-dedicated-following 9V line. Moving to per-order production would make sense here, it's happening in other industries, and I don't see why lego couldn't do it. They don't have to make every piece they ever made able to be ordered, but the 9V trains probably sell well enough to warrant a per-order production of parts, but not well enough to warrant full-time production. I just got my first 9V train (10001) and I would like to get more track for it when I move into a bigger place (at least a year away). I'd like to be able to get them from lego when that happens, and not pay $10 a piece for track on Bricklink.

Putting all the 9V parts on LDD and discontinuing the retail line of 9V seems like the solution to make the most people happy (or less mad). A second possibility would be to just make all the tracks 9V. It would cost more, but since RC can run on them, it doesn't matter if they conduct electricity or not. That way at least the 9V fans can still buy more track.

[Jipay]

I think the major complain is somewhere else. As far as I can remember, when they decided to go on IR and plastic tracks, they (TLC) spent a lot of time explaining to us that this was also made to reduce the costs of production, and therefore the price of the sets so they are more affordable for people. The real question then is : are they ? The answer is : no :-| But I think nobody really hoped they would lower their prices

[JINZONINGEN73]

Lego should consider making some new movie trains, like the Polar Express, a 9V Thomas Railway, a Gotham subway train, and other adventure trains that might appeal to kids who like Batman and Bionicle. It's time Lego starts looking at other train ideas, Christmas/Holiday trains, an animal/circus train. Lehman Toy Trains/LGB have made a wide variety of different engines and cars for younger children over the years (like an exploding dynamite car, dinosaur, aquarium car, etc.) while they continue to offer very detailed and realistic engines and cars. It's time Lego does the same offering more than just a cargo and passenger train.

I can't agree more.

Although things have already been said in here, I'll summarize how I see it:

2 VERY big problems:

1. Kids aren't into trains anymore because, seriously, they're BORING. They are a track... with boxes going around in a circle. No dynamic posing. Nothing launching off of it. No attitude.

Just a BOX going around a CIRCLE.

2. Room. Just like how it's hard to find those japanese Jumbo Machinders robots from the 70's, same here with train setups. Parents in Japan would buy their kids these 3-foot tall robots, only to get rid of them in the trash due to their already-squished living arrangements.

So what's the solution to these 2 big problems?

1. Cross-marketing. Yes, MAKE a Bionicle train. It doesn't even have to be off-the-wall fancy. 4 curves, 1 straights and 1 straight regulator section. The engine? A 9v box with like 50 or so bricks / technic parts and a neat, mildly oversized Bionicle mask on the front. Even better if it's exclusive to THAT set.

Of course kids don't buy Lego 9v trains, they only know they exist if they get the catalogs. And when they do, their engines have nothing really going on.

2. Well, this is a bit tricky, I've tried years to think of a way around this problem. All I could think of, is maybe (somehow?) elevate a track above a point where it's in the way of daily life. Short of being suspended from your ceiling with fishing line (lol), it doesn't look too good. As far as I know, the 9V has no tracks that let you go up a ramp. That would at least give an illusion of not taking up space, if you could have it go up a slope.

Another neat idea is selling expansion packs that aren't just a car, but a car and 2 straights.

If there's going to be an issue with room, then you bring the customer to a point where they don't care they're losing room. It's called advertising. It's called promotion. It's called common-sense business practices. If you have a product someone doesn't want, you make them want it. If there's a detrimental aspect to your product, you make the appetizing points outweigh the bad ones.

Unfortunately, I'm too new to Lego to know what the non-9V tracks were like.

Monorail?

12V?

No idea. But I do know 9V, and I like it. Metal tracks are always nicer than cheesy plastic ones.

This whole "we'll see how they sell in the later part of 2006"... nutty. Seriously.

How can sales on something be gauged when there's a maximum of like only 2 major outlets selling it?!?

And guess what? You're STILL going to pay alot, and the customer is STILL going to be out of room for tracks. So really, the only problem that can be addressed is...

...MAKE THEM DESIRABLE. Make them COOL.

Cool is not a box going around in a circle. Not these days, grandpa.

Silly, silly, silly stuff.

(NOTE: Hope I didn't offend anyone with the box going around a circle description... but from a kid's perspective, that's what it is).

[JINZONINGEN73]

Wait a minute... I don't know much about R/C trains, but here's what I'd ike to see.

9V motors still in production.

9V metal tracks still in production.

And sitting next to those on a shelf, a new 9V engine, remote controlled, with wheels that can ride on the metal track OR OFF the metal track.

Possible, yes? Some kind of hard, durable rubber wheels with a ridge in the center?

The metal one could come in the large set.

The R/C one could be in a medium set.

Small sets (box cars) could be packaged with 2 straights.

Wouldn't this make a hell of alot of sense?

Just try and show me a kid who never wished their train could taper off the track and run along the floor.

And if you don't NEED track to use it, then you need less track. Room problem solved.

[Jipay]

one little point : no track = straight line ;-)

[Section8]

Wait a minute... I don't know much about R/C trains, but here's what I'd ike to see.

9V motors still in production.

9V metal tracks still in production.

And sitting next to those on a shelf, a new 9V engine, remote controlled, with wheels that can ride on the metal track OR OFF the metal track.

The 9V motors are still in production, only now they take power from onboard batteries rather than the track.

9V metal tracks should be the only tracks produced. Since the RCs can run on both, why not only have 1 kind of track to buy? Granted, it is more expensive, but Keeping Everyone Happy + Less Confusion for New Buyers > Slight Price Difference.

Running a train off the tracks doesn't make sense. There's no way to steer it, and running it in reverse will just result in a jack-knife. Lego already made a RC car that doesn't need tracks.

If this is to be the end of the 9V metal rail line, then I would have TLC send it off with a bang. A 9V Twentieth Century Limited or Orient Express as a S@H exclusive, perhaps? The set would have a steam engine (with old 9V motor), tender, a few cars, and enough metal straights to display it. It wouldn't have curves or a speed reg because, due to the set size and price, the only ones buying it would be 1.) longtime 9V fans who already have a Regulator and plenty of curved track; 2.) Collectors who would build it to display it; 3.) collectors who would not open the box. I think it'd be a good idea, but that's just wishful thinking on my part though.

A true measure of how serious TLC is about the train line overall would be whether or not they release accessory cars and buildings. This would still help out the 9V fans since the rolling stock could be used by either system. They could also make non-powered engines (like the BNSF) and let the 9V fans convert them to powered if they want.

[Hobbes]

1. Kids aren't into trains anymore because, seriously, they're BORING. They are a track... with boxes going around in a circle. No dynamic posing. Nothing launching off of it. No attitude.

Just a BOX going around a CIRCLE.

[...]

...MAKE THEM DESIRABLE. Make them COOL.

Cool is not a box going around in a circle. Not these days, grandpa.

Silly, silly, silly stuff.

(NOTE: Hope I didn't offend anyone with the box going around a circle description... but from a kid's perspective, that's what it is).

No offense taken ;-) But I completely disagree with the boring part - and not just because I'm a train fan but because I see the reaction from kids when they see a moving train (not a push-along train): "Awesome! Look, mom!" and the like.

A remotely controlled train (9V, RC, what have you) is still very popular among kids. The LEGO version is just very badly advertised and the way they sell it way too expensive.

[alex54]

I totaly agree with you Hobbes, so totaly disagree with you Jinzoningen 73! My mum nurses some children, and when I make my trains, they are very happy. When their parents came, they absolutly wanted to show them my trains! And a train without a track is not a train, you can't make it turn!

The problem is the price, like evreybody knows. Maybe a solution is to sell trains without regulator to let the consumer the choice to invest in it, so if he has already one, the train pack would be cheapper (I've got 3 regulator, only one is usefull)

Another way to make the trains more attractive is to develop some sets to integrate it well in a town like the crossroad or the so wonderfull train garage ref 10027! so sets with tracks and roads will be very interesting!

[JINZONINGEN73]

And a train without a track is not a train, you can't make it turn!

Section8 Posted Today, 10:46 AM

Running a train off the tracks doesn't make sense. There's no way to steer it, and running it in reverse will just result in a jack-knife. Lego already made a RC car that doesn't need tracks.

I shoulda' mentioned it'd have a turning ability.

:-P

Yeah, maybe it's too ambitious an idea. I know I personally couldn't stand train sets growing up. There was nothing "going on'.

Only after seeing Lego's 9V, high quality, metal rail, never-break-down sets did it become interesting.

[MatthewUSA]

My opinion on the 9V System is if the Lego Company is eliminating this theme, this would be a big mistake for the company. I feel if Lego could get into the Model Railroading community, they would have a huge success. The fun of model railroading is building a layout. But with Lego products, you get to design and build everything for the layout. I think this is the coolest way to model railroad. Hopefully Lego will research this avenue and think more about the market for the 9V System.

[UniqueBuilder]

Dead topic? X-D

The content is good, though. ;-)

[saturncoupe1999]

In response to the comment of JINZONINGEN 73 about "Kids not being into trains....", etc. It would be an interesting experience for you to attend a Lego train show and see the expression of the kids as they watch the trains travel around their layouts. True, there is no shooting or blowing up of things. But for most kids there is a fascination with trains. Maybe it is because the real ones are so tremendously HUGE compared to their small selves. I don't really know. But when I was young ( many, many years ago ) I would PRAY that a train would come whenever my parents would approach a rail crossing. Of course, my father working for the railroad had a positive effect on me, too.

Go to a show and see for yourself. Trains are cool, and YES, they NEED tracks, too! :-D

[gylman]

I had set up the Xmas train at my house this year, and my 3 year old nephew was totally obsessed with it.

Here is the problem though. In my personal experience with my and my relatives' offsrping, the age group of maximal train fasciculation is 3-7. At that age they are not really able to build or modify the trains. All they can do is make them go round and round, and parents have to do most of the rest of the "playing". By the time they are old enought to really do something with the trains.... the attention drifts to action figures, video games, etc etc etc.

There were the duplo trains, which were good for this...

There will always be some kids fascinated with trains into later years, and I assume they will be well represented at any Lego or train hobby show. It may not be a big enough market though...

[Asuka]

Well, I like trains but I never owned one. As a child, my love belonged to space, but

now I

[Brickthus]

... a nice layout is a main part of the attraction, in longer terms.

So there is not so much fast satisfaction, and it needs

a lot of city sets, planning and money too of course.

It also needs lots of basic bricks and plates to make a layout resembling the real railway. That's what I'm trying to do with these modules: http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?f=178214

It takes a lot of 1x1 plates for ballast and lots of bricks for the module structures. I bought 18 tiger mosaics and loads of the grey and dark grey plates packs for ballast before the old greys became extinct. This is because ballast is really old grey (slightly yellow), though concrete sleepers might be new bley (not yellowing until they're old). I'm trying to go for mostly black sleepers (like wood) because black will always be available. 12000 1x1 black tiles is still a lot though!

I managed to get a few statues of liberty and Yodas *yoda* *yoda* for the green plates for scenery, but even these supplies are running a bit low, so some darker green will be required.

The whole layout will be 4.8m x 3.6m in a double track looped-eight, all built to 8mm:1ft scale. The pictures with the red Hogwarts Express train show one corner of the outer circuit, with tracks sloping in opposite directions so that they end up one over the other. The point module in the gallery is pneumatic powered BTW.

I expect this project to take another 5 years, especially because I'm also doing Power Function stuff, which can be applied to trains too, with this point motor: http://www.brickshelf.com/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?i=2346439

Mark

[Asuka]

Wowowowow! What a great and sophisticated project! *y*

And those motored switch points of yours.... brilliant! 8-