Historic Themes and Orient Expedition

[gylman]

I can't imagine TLC is so superficial as to judge the importance of AFOLs just by their numbers in direct sales.

Lego is unfortunately a corporation first and it all comes down to sales. Don't underestimate the importance of $$$ to a company. Goodwill, ethic responsibility, and all the other missions and social goals are secondary to a company when their $ales keep them in business. It's all about the numbers.

But what does give AFOL an advantage, is that we are vocal. We send letters and messages expressing our concerns, issues, and opinions re. new products, but unless we can dent Lego in the pocket book (or really provide information that will help their sales -which we're seeing with focus groups/Ambassador program), we won't be heard.

I agree with BlueAndWhite's comments completely. It's the cold hard truth.

Both Exo-Force and KKII are not licenses. Number of relevant females = 0. THey are story lines developed by TLC. They can easily do the same with Adventurers.

Not every theme has to be about massive battles among robots and soldiers. Surely somewhere there is a role for a single relatively peaceful theme, characterized more by humor than by weapons, with a smattering of strong female characters. There has to be a niche for that somewhere. TLC certainly has missed out on the girl market. If there is any potential for one, ExoForce and KKII won't do it. Belville is an insult to the intelligence of girls over the age of 6 or 7. Adventurers has the potential at least. .

[Jipay]

I agree about the females. I started to offer lego sets to my niece and I'm already wandering what sets i'll be able to buy for her. I mean system sets. No girls. One leia lost somewhere in an extremely expensive set. No princess to save in a castle. Nothing ! I think it's easy to say "our core markets are our core market and girls aren't interested into bricks". Yeah, now that there's no girls, they won't, for sure.

I'd also be really interested on how can Lego say girls aren't buying lego bricks. Based on what survey, how was it done, and when ? Lego are selling to supermarket/toyshops. I don't think they can have a good view on their final market...

[gylman]

Here's an idea for a "license" that would be along those lines (but not Adventurers)

The Magic Treehouse. In North America this is huge for kids in the 6-9 group, both sexes. I have no idea though it it has any interest outside NA.

Historical elements, fun characters, lots of potential.

http://www.randomhouse.com/kids/magictreehouse/

[xwingyoda]

Jipay, Steve aka Speaknspell , our "Lego Rep", wrote this in an FBTB thread:

just a little bit of insight on why female figs don't happen as often. The reason is that most of these toys are made for a target market of boys 8-12. Identifying with the toy they're playing with is important. When a boy looks at a girl minifig, they don't see themselves and therefor are less prone to want to act through that fig. Thats one of the main reasons why most of the figs are male.

Well at that age I was interestred in girls already !!

*yoda*

[WesternOutlaw]

You make some good points Gylman. That would be great if they did the same with a new Adventure theme. I think Lego did this with Orient Expedition (at least the story-part) and it had a good story-line (Pippin and Johny Thunder thwart the evil Sam Sinister) with great characters (Babloo and others). I have every set and liked all of them. And I really agree with you re. themes not having to be about massive battles between robots and soldiers. Wars/battles aren't needed to make a great theme (esp. with children in mind).

I would love to see Lego design some historic themes or vignettes of history (may involve some battles but they don't have to). Like a WORLD EXPLORER or GREAT DISCOVERIES theme with sets that involve heroes/famous people in history discovering new parts of the world or great finds. Some could include:

Discovery of the tomb of Tutankhamen

Columbus's voyage/discovery of America

Marco Polo in China

Famous battle scenes (Gettysburg, Alamo, etc.)

Roman Coloseum

And numerous others

These would be great sets to teach children about history.

[Norro]

Once upon a time "Just imagine..."

Now its "Play on" and we'll do the imagining for you... And thus a critical element of LEGO is lost...

This is exactly what I was tryiing to allude to...

God Bless,

Nathan

[Brick Miner]

wow, really great thing being said in this thread, and i AGREE with all of it. doesn't seem like there is much left to say here but i can give this insight into the LEGO company and how it works...

set sales are only have the equation when calculating if a theme is going to be continued. a good friend of mine works for LEGO, he draws the new bionicle comic series (not released yet). his work goes through numerous reviews between two child groups. one young group (under the age of 10) and another older group (pre-teens). these focus groups direct his art and the product. from what i can gather, these focus groups determine a lot of what happens with the product. im sure LEGO uses these same focus groups when determining theme and set design.

this could be responsible for themes being cancled, even though the product seems to sell well.

also,

These would be great sets to teach children about history.

lego has been heading toward more of a "action toy" than a building toy for the past decade (starting with things like the falling mast on the red beard runner and most recently the space-age looking medieval knights that shoot and throw things)... an action toy is entertaining rather than teachful. so it seams teaching kids about history is not somthing that LEGO is interested in. sad.

- brick miner

[gylman]

I am not pretending that Adventurers can compete with Star Wars or Batman for gross sales. Personally, I have no use for Star Wars, and have never built a set other than the ISD. My kids also have no interest in StarWars. I am however, grateful for its existence because I know it is one of the main reasons TLC is still financially viable.

However, Lego has tried to create the impression that they care about child development. They have historyically tried to get their product into schools (Dacta, Mindstorms) and there is no daycare or afterschool children program in the western world without a bucket of Legos somewhere. I assume that this is not because they actually care about these issues, but because it is an excellent marketing and promotion tool.

Lego also wants to grow its market. Well.... if the market is 8-12 year old boys, then they are in trouble because this market is saturated. Surely a more sensible thing to do is to expand the market is by looking outside this group - maybe 8-12 year old girls.

Sure, some girls will look at it and see a boys' toy and not want to try it. But I predict a significant number of girls will. Isn't it easier to make more money by increasing the number of girls playing with lego from 5% to 20% than to get the boys from 75% to 90%? If Lego can then position Lego less as a boys' toy, but rather as a great toy for boys and girls.... the opportunities are endless. Other than my job, there is nothing I know more about than children's toys, and I can tell you it seems nearly impossible to find things for my girls outside the mindless retarded Barbie and Bratz type toys.

The way I see it the Adventurers line is a solution to many issues Lego has:

-emphasizing education and imagingation with play

-including girls in the market

-not being totally dependent on licenses.

-keeping that noisy bunch of whining AFOLs off their back. :-)

TLC needs to be able to say: "hey we made a bazillion dollar off selling StarWars sets.", AND to be able to say "we sell an educational product that promotes imaginative play, learning, and male and female roles without violence". The second sentence may not make them as much money as the first, but it's excellent optics and excellent strategy for promotion. Right now when TLC makes that second statement, it rings increasingly hollow.

Jipay - let us know if how our TLC representative responds to the disccussion here.

[WesternOutlaw]

The way I see it the Adventurers line is a solution to many issues Lego has:

-emphasizing education and imagingation with play

-including girls in the market

-not being totally dependent on licenses.

-keeping that noisy bunch of whining AFOLs off their back. :-)

Very good points indeed. I think the education part is important to Lego (or at least they have demonstrated this in the past). Creator, Mindstorms, Educational Kits, and Play Tables have been a way for Lego to pursue the school market in the past. Why not expand with historic themes?

I sympathize with your dilemma re. lack of girls' toys. Walking into a toy store, dolls (Barbie, Bratz, and others) are about the only things I see - or at least on numerous shelves. While I don't know how it feels to buy toys for a little girl, I can see why you buy Lego for them (and have to agree with you regarding lack of female mini-figs in sets). This topic has been discussed quite a bit. I can understand why Lego doesn't include them, but they are still lacking and for a little girl, I would imagine they'd like to see sets with female figs. I wonder how Lego does with the "girl" themes?

I'd like to see Lego get away from the licenses, as we built our own (including Star Wars) back in the 80s. They are great sets, but I'd like to see Lego go back to it's "generic" sets - Castle, City, Pirate, Train, Adventure. It doesn't take the association to a movie to make a good product. It's just a very strong marketing tool.

An lastly, as AFOL, we need to continue to complain and be heard if we want to see great themes like Adventure return. I think we'd all agree that it's a theme worth continuing.

[snefroe]

I agree about the females. I started to offer lego sets to my niece and I'm already wandering what sets i'll be able to buy for her. I mean system sets. No girls. One leia lost somewhere in an extremely expensive set. No princess to save in a castle. Nothing ! I think it's easy to say "our core markets are our core market and girls aren't interested into bricks". Yeah, now that there's no girls, they won't, for sure.

I'd also be really interested on how can Lego say girls aren't buying lego bricks. Based on what survey, how was it done, and when ? Lego are selling to supermarket/toyshops. I don't think they can have a good view on their final market...

i don't think it's difficult to find out who's interested in lego and who's not. for instance, how many girls/women do we have on this forum? an absolute minority. and how many wives/girl friends of EB members are actively involved in lego or EB as well? I think most accept our hobby because they like/love us, but couldn't care less about lego. let's face it, building things is more of a "male thing" than a "female thing". there are btw, also far more male ingeneers than female engineers... i remember i manipulated my sister into buying lego when we were young, like the old hospital and the snackbar, but she almost never played with lego at all... So yes, we can assume 99% of lego's customers are male... lego has also tried to expand to the female world but failed time and time again. Paradisa for instance, and what do apo, yoda and jon have in common? they all buy Belville, even tho that's also a theme for females... Sure, it's not always great to hear they're making decisions about our hobby on cold numbers and especially now, when times are difficult, i don't expect them to take yet another risk by adding more female minifigs...

[blueandwhite]

... Sure, it's not always great to hear they're making decisions about our hobby on cold numbers and especially now, when times are difficult, i don't expect them to take yet another risk by adding more female minifigs...

I don't think that adding the occasional female minifig to a larger set is going to kill sales. For example, the grossly undermanned airport wouldn't have suffered if it included an extra female. Similarly, a castle with a lone female queen/princess isn't going to deter boys from buying what is tried and true. Sure, makeing a smaller set that only comes with a female fig might deter some, but where there are multiple figs, making a few of them female isn't going to kill anyone.

Of course, a line focused towards girls is an entirely different can of worms.

Later.

[Mister Phes]

Laddies I must say well done on maintaining such a brilliant discussion! This is thread an example of what a thread should be!

I agree with Mr Blueandwhite that the occassional female mini-figure shouldn't hurt set sales, afterall a female mini-figure is a different design bringing more diversity to the mini-figures in the sets. Even pirates had a female mini-figure right from the first year and at the time that was the most popular theme. However times are changing, but changed so much that adding the occassional female mini-figure would deter young boys away from a set?

Its now the 21st century and the sexual revolution is now over 30 years ago, so this juvenility concerning effeminacy in a male child's toy should have long subsided. I recall from my youth there was some female characters in the toys that appealed to me. Voltron had Prince Allura and Haggar, He-Man had Teqila and Evil Lyn, various Go-Bots had female personalities although their physical traits didn't exhibit any feminine characteristics, unlike the Transformers female Autobot, Arcee. I could go on but I think I've made the point.

But regardless of how many female mini-figures are in a set, its not going to help get back the historic themes!

[Sting]

I actually liked the female lego figures. Its a shame that they became "rare" (the old female Forestwoman can go for up to $35.00 on Bricklink!!). They added a new dimension, but as all arguments say - most of Lego's fans are boys.

As much as I'd like to see more female minifigs (oh and maybe a returned to quality, non juni0rized sets and "non this is how you play" themes), I know we will never see them. I think we should be happy if Lego would just return to good themes and included the female figs in at least the same frequency as they used to.

I think a "Time-Travellers" theme would be cool... where the Time-Travellers (they could even be The Adventurers!!!!) have to go back in time to document/change certain events where Sam Sinister has altered them... or taken things from them... there could be things like travelling to the Colleseum to save an Emperor (Sam may have kidnapped him or something non-violent) that changed history... they could go to different periods of time...

Prehistoric (Dinosaurs again?) Ancient (Cavemen?) Classical (Roman/Greece/Egyptian), Medieval (Europe), Imperial (Pirates/Colonial)19th Century (Wild West) and than maybe a "Current Day" (which would be in the 1930s/1940s in the Adventurers Timeline that has the time machine) and they have to do certain things to redo/change things that Sam did to make the current time back to normal!

This could either revolve around history to be able to teach kids, or revolve around a made up event, in a historically accurate period (and the buildings, items, weapons, characters of the period would be used to teach). This would be good for kids, TLG, and AFOLs!

This would work as the only new pieces would need to be for the Classical Period because Lego has no Roman/Greek pieces. (Lego already has Dinosaurs (Dino Island), Cavemen (just need maybe new Torsos/heads), Medieval (Castle), Imperial (Pirates), 19th Century (Wild West) and current (The Adventurers).

If they wanted they could even go into the future (current day) and teach about computers or SOMETHING. It would be amazing.

[gylman]

But regardless of how many female mini-figures are in a set, its not going to help get back the historic themes!

Depends on market positioning. We are not competing with Star Wars or ExoForce. We are positioning Adventurers as the most educational and imaginative Lego line, no license, a running cast of characters that provdes a common thread as we criss-cross the world. This group of characters is uniquely Lego, and can become very recognizable as a Lego product, even though it is an Indiana Jones ripoff.

There was a poll some time ago on the Lego website, and it asked which character would you most like to see leading a Lego Parade. Johnny Thunder and the Adventurers won (granted against very lame competition).

I know I am getting far-fetched here, but as a parent and sometimes teacher, I think Adventurers can be The Lego Company's platform for entering the classroom. This is how they say with a straight face " we care about childhood education". Whether they truly care or not, I could't care less. But Lego has historically positioned itself as an educational toy. They have sold castles sets, town set, Adventurers sets (egypt theme), Dacta, Robolab, and others especially for classrooms. This activity has dwindled in recent years, and their only active classroom work now seems to be Robolab, soon to be NXT.

Why not use the Adventurers for educating about history. Recognizing that classrooms are 50/50 male/female this platform should have equal appeal to each sex.

You people want Romans: Caesar and Cleopatra (you people have been clamouring for Roman theme, and apparently Playmobile has a rocking one this year. Since these companies always steal each others ideas...)

You want Greece: Helen of Troy and Achilles. (the adventurers did to a greek adventure, but only online as far as I know)

You want Medieval: JOan of Arc (well, there may be some issues there....)

You want Transatlantic flight: Charles Lindberg and Amelia Earhart. Adventurers has always been big with planes

The Od American West: recycle a bunch of Legoredo pieces, but bring the Adventurers into it.

....

Use the Adventurers characters as a vehicle to visit different place (time travel, whatever), and support them with an interactive website. Sell them to the general market and to the schools in special packages.

Look, TLC has to try some new marketing approach now and then. Boys 8-12 is saturated. Expand!

[Sting]

Looks like me and gylman posted the same idea at the same time!

[gylman]

LOL. Brillliant thinking Sting. Great minds and all that.....

[john cleese]

well i think lego used to really care about educating young minds because of the accuracy of their pirates theme. I mean it really taught you about how the natives priates and imperial soldiers would have interacted in the days of yore. But now they dont give a rats BEEHIND, now its all about the money. Ironically this is why lego isnt selling as well now, Because they are too closely tied with the media, instead of being the exact opposite and more educational. I beleive deep down inside all kids subconciously want to learn, they just want to have fun while doing it and there was a time when lego did just that. But gone are the days when lego was lego and not nazigo.

[Starwars4J]

I don't know about that, John. I mean Lego NEVER seemed to be interested in education in the past, the pirates weren't especially educational or accurate. Back then they just wanted kids to have fun and use their imaginations. These days it seems like the ONLY way they can bring anything that isn't pop-culture is to market it as educational to get the parents to force it on their kids. I don't like this. Sure, I'd like a historical theme, but would the children really prefer "Hey, I got a Julius Cesear fig! Cooooooooool!" to swooshing away their star wars fighters and such? Lego made the right choice business wise, at least as a quick fix to get back on their feet. What they choose to do from here nobody knows.

[Mister Phes]

I agree Captain Starwars4J, Pirates did little to historically educate children and I can't really see how it demonstrated interaction between pirates, soliders or islanders as their interaction was left to the builder's imagination. Although lets not forget the pirate theme did have a minor story and some of the characters were named. But I suppose this was just an inspirational starting point as the theme wasn't driven by the story nor its characters (like a licenced theme is), or even to the degree that Orient Expedition was. But what Orient Expedition has over licenced themes is its been convienced by minds from within The LEGO Company, wheras the latter is a LEGOized interpretation of a franchise which already has enough merchandise and toys as it is...

Edited April 4, 2006 by mister_phes

[snefroe]

I agree Captain Starwars4J, Pirates did little to historically educate children and I can't really see how it demonstrated interaction between pirates, soliders or islanders as their interaction was left to the builder's imagination. Although lets not forget the pirate theme did have a minor story and some of the characters were named. But I suppose this was just an inspirational starting point as the theme wasn't driven by the story nor its characters (like a licenced theme is), or even to the degree that Orient Expedition was. But what Orient Expedition has over licenced themes is its been convienced by minds from within The LEGO Company, wheras the latter is a LEGOized interpretation of a franchise which already has enough merchandise and toys as it is...

Lego is even doing damage to history. take the vikings: the helmets have horns: a myth; the longboats have faces of mythological creatures: a myth; The entire theme is about vikings fighting mythological creatures, that surely didn't happen... At best, lego popularises hollywood's version of history, but they're very far off from actual history. sure, adventures probably came closest to acurate historic models, like the airplanes and cars.

there's no doubt in my mind that lego IS educational. the things you learn when playing with bricks, building models,... can't be ignored, but they probably over estimate that aspect in order to sell more. After all, every young parent wants the best for his/her child, lego just tries to use that feeling...

[Mister Phes]

Is The LEGO Company really doing damage to history? Most of the old LEGO themes are based on the most stereotyped cliched rendition of specific genres which I think adds to their charm. But I wouldn't say this damages history because these are only fictional sets that exist in a fictional universe created by The LEGO Company.

The damage has been already done by popular culture and fiction, but I suppose you could The LEGO Company is continuing to propagate it. However, why should everything have to be historically accurate anyway? The educational aspect of LEGO themes such as these comes from ingenuity of design, not the accurate depiction of history.

[snefroe]

Is The LEGO Company really doing damage to history? Most of the old LEGO themes are based on the most stereotyped cliched rendition of specific genres which I think adds to their charm. But I wouldn't say this damages history because these are only fictional sets that exist in a fictional universe created by The LEGO Company.

The damage has been already done by popular culture and fiction, but I suppose you could The LEGO Company is continuing to propagate it. However, why should everything have to be historically accurate anyway? The educational aspect of LEGO themes such as these comes from ingenuity of design, not the accurate depiction of history.

no they're not really "doing" damage, just as the film "titanic" didn't "do" any damage, they just:

1) support popular believes that are simply not correct and if it's just about a historical detail then sure i can live with it, but it tends to be more than just a minor detail. it can influence the way people look at entire civilisations. for instance, Lego's viking series more or less supports the notion that vikings were nothing more then ancient pirates, barbarians... That's not good

2) it doesn't really inspire people to be critical of what they see around them. it teaches them to just "take" whatever 's getting on their plate...

[xwingyoda]

I remember all that discussion about historical adequacy when the Viking line came out, discussion brillantly re taken by Sne in the previous posts.

However I do not remember such discussion regarding the Pirates peg leg, hooked "hand" and all those piraty stereotypes !!

I think that, to be kid appealling (lets not forget -we usually tend to- that Lego is a toy intended to kids), a product needs to rely on known stereotypes rather than historical truth ;-)

*yoda*

[snefroe]

I remember all that discussion about historical adequacy when the Viking line came out, discussion brillantly re taken by Sne in the previous posts.

However I do not remember such discussion regarding the Pirates peg leg, hooked "hand" and all those piraty stereotypes !!

I think that, to be kid appealling (lets not forget -we usually tend to- that Lego is a toy intended to kids), a product needs to rely on known stereotypes rather than historical truth ;-)

*yoda*

of course, but there's a choice here, you can just go along with the myths and stereotypes or you could at the same time ad something that brings everything into balance

[xwingyoda]

Yes Sne, I agree but if you put in the balance historic truth (boring to kids) and well known and beloved stereotypes ($$$$$$$$), guess what wins ??

The good solution would be to find a nice balance between both without risking $$$$$ ;-)

*yoda*