Worst Sci-Fi theme?

[M:tron engineer]

Well maybe i've overreacted with WORST, but still I think that older set were better(overall), though SP III have some great sets too(5973 is one of better, also K9 bot seems kinda cute).

[Scorpion]

I have collected many space sub-themes and I think SP3 is one of the best. Sure some sets are meh. But we have the galactic enforcer and the VPR raid. Those ships look amazing.

Have you noticed that you just enumerated sets that only have one vessel instead of the 2-for-1 deals as the better examples of SP3 design? That's part of the point I'm trying to make. I love the Raid VPR, it's a sleek little vessel with great lines. I bought two of those. I also like the VX Falcon very much. But I'm not gonna spend 50€ on a set because I enjoy half of it!

(By the way, what does VPR stand for?)

I think the villain "cars" are really innovative because they look futuristic AND evil AND good.

I have to disagree with you. They do look evil, allright, but futuristic? C'mon! They look like something out of a 1950's pulp magazine!

Including two factions in many sets is also very helpful and much better in retrospective for kids than the themes of old in which each theme had around 4 sets and they were separated by a whole year so it was not really that easy to play with both factions unless you were persistant and/or rich.

Nope, every "good guy" faction had a concurrent "bad guy" faction. Blacktron I was simultaneous with Space Police I. Blacktron II was around in the last year of SPI and during SPII's entire run. Spyrious showed up in the last year of SPII, IIRC.

More so , with contenders such as UFO, roboforce and unitron, it is very hard to see SP3 as the worst theme. They are at least average.

I never said SP3 was the WORST space theme ever. As I stated in my original reply, I believe that honour goes to Unitron. (Roboforce and Galidor? Never heard of it.) In fact, I concur with your last sentence. SP3 is doomed to the limbo that is mediocrity.

But quite honestly, it is one of the best space themes we've had. With actually-alien looking aliens.

No, they don't look like aliens (even because we've never seen one). They look like minifigs with bumpy rubber foreheads.

LEGO Space wasn't about aliens, it was allways about humans, exploring, stealing, policing. Like I said, '90s space was 2001: a Space Odyssey. SP3 is Buck Rogers in the 25th century.

Space Police 3 is too much "police" and not enough "space".

[Algernon]

No, they don't look like aliens (even because we've never seen one). They look like minifigs with bumpy rubber foreheads.

...and minifigs look like little yellow people with muffin tops. Your point?

LEGO Space wasn't about aliens, it was allways about humans, exploring, stealing, policing. Like I said, '90s space was 2001: a Space Odyssey. SP3 is Buck Rogers in the 25th century.

So... SPIII sucks because its got aliens in it. Look, there are some valid reasons why you would argue that SPIII is mediocre (for example, the terribly disappointing smaller sets from the 09 wave) but that's not one of them. LEGO Space is about Space. That's it. Space involves aliens (I even hear that aliens are from space). LEGO Space Police is about arresting aliens in Space. That's as LEGO Space as you can get. Just because it's not identical to the 90s doesn't mean it has no place in the LEGO Space universe.

I know what you're getting at, but come on.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Algernon

[CP5670]

As Nabii commented in a thread floating round here somewhere, the difference between SP3 and the sets of the 80's and 90's is we're not kids anymore, and that wonderous feeling of adventure and whimsy are gone. Sure, we're enthusiastic about Lego, we still love it to bits, but very few of us can summmon that childish imagination that fueled us so long ago.

Good point. I grew up with all the old space themes and have collected almost all of the sets from them (and regularly build MOCs based on them), but looking back at them now, they certainly did have their flaws. Almost all of them contained a mix of great and lousy sets.

As far as the SP3 baddie ships go, I wasn't much of a fan of the 2009 lineup myself, but the 2010 models sport a new color scheme and are generally far better designed.

If you're talking about the Renegade, that set is pretty terrible and I much prefer the Galactic Enforcer.

Yeah, the Renegade is the arguably the weakest set of Blacktron 1, despite having some good ideas.

Nope, every "good guy" faction had a concurrent "bad guy" faction. Blacktron I was simultaneous with Space Police I. Blacktron II was around in the last year of SPI and during SPII's entire run. Spyrious showed up in the last year of SPII, IIRC.

None of them were actually released in the same year, although they were kept in production for a while and were available at the same time. The usual TLG approach back then was to have good guys, bad guys and civilians, each released in different but adjacent years.

[vexorian]

The Galactic enforcer comes with an alien ship.

Both the VX-falcon and the skull twins' ship are great. You Do not like the skull twins' and that's fair. But you are not LEGO's target. Kids love the fact that they will get two ships of two different factions in that set. More so, they will like both. Because they aren't locked into the belief that cars can't look futuristic. They will just love the fact they get a police space ship, two cool skull twins and a flying hot rod that can shoot projectiles at the good space ship. Unfortunately for AFOLs, LEGO will always give kids a priority, for better or worse.

The villain ships look like cars with wings and trusts attached, and it is ridiculous but that's part of the appeal :). It is probably because that is one of the prevalent concepts in flying cars that there are right now. For example, the yellow car Anakin / Obie Wan drove in episode 2 is precisely a wheel-less car with wings and trusts attached :)

I really have to disagree about two faction sets implying a reduction in design quality. The change was not only in space but almost in all system themes, and as usual with 'normal' sets, some sets with two factions are bad but some of them are really nice.

LEGO Space wasn't about aliens, it was allways about humans, exploring, stealing, policing. Like I said, '90s space was 2001: a Space Odyssey. SP3 is Buck Rogers in the 25th century.

You can use the same argument to dismiss all non-classic themes. "LEGO space was never about law enforcement, it was about exploration". "LEGO space wasn't about ice, it was about exploration in moon-like planets". "LEGO space wasn't about robots, it was about humans in space ships".

[Scorpion]

So... SPIII sucks because its got aliens in it.

You're concentrating on a frankly superficial part of my argument. I've exposed my case, but if you want to sum it up in one word, it's "theme". I think the "theme" of SP3 does not fit well with the theme of classic space. I could go further, but I would only repeat myself. It's all there up in my other replies.

[Scorpion]

The Galactic enforcer comes with an alien ship.

C'mon, that little rocket Vespa? It's alien, allright, but to call it a "ship" would be an overstatement (looking, for instance, to the parts count compared to the GalExplorer).

Kids love the fact that they will get two ships of two different factions in that set. More so, they will like both.

I'm not so sure. Have you noticed that all the new 2010 SP3 sets (except the base) have been single ships? Perhaps the bean counters at Lego have reached the conclusion that the 2-in-1 sets weren't working?

For example, the yellow car Anakin / Obie Wan drove in episode 2 is precisely a wheel-less car with wings and trusts attached :)

*Jedi mind trick*

George Lucas never made the prequel triology.

I really have to disagree about two faction sets implying a reduction in design quality. The change was not only in space but almost in all system themes, and as usual with 'normal' sets, some sets with two factions are bad but some of them are really nice.

I think it's logical. You give two teams the same budget: this set has to cost 50€. One makes a 2-in-1 set, the other makes a single vehicle. The second team can go all out on the vehicle, making a lavish design. The first team has to design two vehicles, and since the budget is fixed, you have to adjust the other vehicle if the first gets over the parts count. It's a compromise instead of an optimal design.

You can use the same argument to dismiss all non-classic themes. "LEGO space was never about law enforcement, it was about exploration". "LEGO space wasn't about ice, it was about exploration in moon-like planets". "LEGO space wasn't about robots, it was about humans in space ships".

Like I said in the previous post it's all about the consistency of theme. 2001 and Buck Rogers.

[Algernon]

You're concentrating on a frankly superficial part of my argument. I've exposed my case, but if you want to sum it up in one word, it's "theme". I think the "theme" of SP3 does not fit well with the theme of classic space. I could go further, but I would only repeat myself. It's all there up in my other replies.

No, I'm re-wording your argument into something less disguised in self-satisfied babble. The largest thematic change from classic Space to SPIII that you keep focusing on is the inclusion of aliens and the "cops and robbers" scenario. What I fail to understand is why a thematic change inherently makes things bad. The Dark Knight was one of the most well-received comic book movies of all time, and yet it was quite a bit different from this:

Sure, SPIII is more lighthearted than, say, Blacktron I, but it's still perfectly LEGO and of all SPIII's faults, the tonal shift is probably the least distressing.

[Artanis I]

The Dark Knight was one of the most well-received comic book movies of all time, and yet it was quite a bit different from this:

Yeah, so many of my good arguments have been destroyed when people use my logic to question the validity of the movies Batman, Batman Returns, Batman Begins & The Dark Knight, considering the 60s TV show. Curse you, Batman!

[Cardinal Brick]

I'm surprised that SPIII has been doing so badly in this thread, while I don't think it's perfect I've been impressed with it I really like this years wave and while I'm not really a space fan I have bought most of the set and will probably complete the line (that's the problem with being a completest!) I personally think it's return was better than the return of pirate (had pirates not got the flagship).

As to my own thoughts I'd like to discount Galidor and pretend it doesn't exsist! I think I agree with CP5670 Life on Mars was a really weak theme, I did like the main ship but apart from that it wasn't that impressive. Hell I've even got quite a few of the smaller sets sitting in boxes becuase I was given them and was never impressed enough to open them and add them to the colection.

There were a few other themes I think were weak notably Roboforce (though I only have one set).

I feel the need to defend Insectoid, I've been buying a few really cheap sets of late from this theme and I'm quite impressed the ideas are novel and well done, now someone is always going to complain about juniorisation but I think that's a pointless argument unless you plan to build me monorail track from 1x1x1 plate. It have a sensible range of unique peices and the figs are solid.

Thats my take anyway.

[KDog]

I think opinions on Exo-Force might vary depending on how much you like Anime. I've noticed that Exo-Force seems to appeal to people who grew up in the late '90s and 2000s who were exposed to a lot of Anime-inspired stuff on TV.

As someone who grew up in '80s with cartoons that were more Westernized, I don't quite get a lot of Anime and Exo-Force doesn't appeal to me that much. I don't know that I'd say it was the worst Sci-Fi theme, but it's probably my least favorite. I do, however, like the Anime-style hairpieces.

I loved, loved, loved Insectoids.

I was never crazy about the color scheme and designs of Spyrius, and Life On Mars was kind of weak.

[Henchmen4Hire]

@ The people who don't like Space Police 3: You folks must not be Batman Beyond fans? The first thing I thought when I saw their new rides was Hey! Those ships look like the ones the cops use in Batman Beyond! Frikkin' sweet!

If the Space Police-figures themselves had similar outfits as well, I would have just about died with giddiness.

I didn't like any of the early Space sets, too blocky (har har).

[M:tron engineer]

I've grown up with those block sets around me, so its a bit of sentimental value. I like those sets JUST BECAUSE they are BLOCKY, all those oval shapes make me fell sick. SP III failed (in my eyes) in term of non consistant build up(base looks strange, that cell transporter looks weird, even flagship have its own faults - oky oky im picky i know), lack of airtanks, lack of proper ENEMY (where are blacktrons?!)... I dont say its JUST WORST theme ever released, but they arent up to glory of older sets.

[vexorian]

Hmnn blockiness is doomed to extinction and I say good riddance. Space ships must look like space ships and I think that SP3 has shown that such thing is possible without harming the build experience (if anything it enriches it).

Even the best neo-classic-space MOCs avoid the blockiness.

The sets of old were good but if those designs were released in this year, they just wouldn't sell. Space had to evolve.

Edit: And well LEGO had tried to stop looking blocky ever since SP1. At least, the light system ship I own really did its best to avoid it. Also, take the mtron helicopter ship (Oh doesn't it look more like a helicopter than a space ship, hmnn) A lot of the shape comes from those "door" parts and the canopi rather than bricks.

Edited July 3, 2010 by vexorian

[Aanchir]

Hmnn blockiness is doomed to extinction and I say good riddance. Space ships must look like space ships and I think that SP3 has shown that such thing is possible without harming the build experience (if anything it enriches it).

Even the best neo-classic-space MOCs avoid the blockiness.

The sets of old were good but if those designs were released in this year, they just wouldn't sell. Space had to evolve.

Edit: And well LEGO had tried to stop looking blocky ever since SP1. At least, the light system ship I own really did its best to avoid it. Also, take the mtron helicopter ship (Oh doesn't it look more like a helicopter than a space ship, hmnn) A lot of the shape comes from those "door" parts and the canopi rather than bricks.

To be fair, some people prefer the blockiness because of the deep-space environment of many classic themes. There was never any indication that the rocky, moonlike worlds of Classic Space or Futuron had an atmosphere, so there would have been no need to worry about friction or aerodynamic design.

And in all honesty, the world of SPIII looks a lot like those worlds-- until this year, when we went inside the city domes of that planet or moon, it was a legitimate puzzle why the astronauts didn't have helmets that covered the face. For me that didn't at all detract from the set design or the theme concept, and I even kind of liked the simple black helmets, but there was a logical disconnect that upset some fans.

The problem, though, is that LEGO Space never worried too much about plausibility or scientific details, and always was at its core just a way for LEGO to exploit the various sci-fi possibilities that wouldn't feel natural in their other themes.

Furthermore, concerning part design, the rounded slopes and other streamlined parts that are so prevalent nowadays feel like a natural evolution of the sloped windshields that were endemic to older Space themes (in fact, feel free to compare the proportions of Hyperspeed Pursuit's windshield to those of the old windshields on the sets Vexorian just mentioned-- they're scarily similar)

The fact remains that blocky vehicles just don't look all that fast or dynamic. To an AFOL who understands the reality of spacecraft to some extent, blocky vehicles might be OK, but to a kid a sleeker design seems intuitively faster and more dynamic. Even as an adult I much prefer the SPIII aesthetic, and it feels natural that they have taken the place of older Space designs.

[CarrollFilms]

I think that the Mars Mission alien qualifies for the title of the ugliest LEGO piece ever made.

Ok, yes they were ugly, but I loved the sets, very detailed and cool. I collected all of the sets, a few i took a part and rebuilt a giant space carrier. then bought new sets, so don't say anything Bad about Mars Mission, because it had good pices and cool minifigs (not aliens)

[feanor]

My Top 5 list of the worst Sci-Fi themes (only Lego Space subthemes are included):

1. Life on Mars: What was that? The worst way of reintroducing an ailing theme. Maybe the reason was that by that time Lego Space was long dead and Life on Mars was trying to capitalise on the interest of the then ongoing Mars exploration rather than on the past success of Lego Space, but still...

2. Roboforce: Where do I start from? The uncoordinated colours? The <insert that tiresome argument> design that looked like a haphazard pile of bricks? Every 10 year old child MOC would look better than these random robots.

3. Unitron: Underdeveloped theme, re-warmed and re-served ideas (and not even the best ones) from past Space themes. And one more comment; if Unitron where the Space Police replacing military group to protect Ice Planet 2002 civilians from the evil Spyrius, how did they make this evident? No prison pods, no insignia, no way to show their function or position in the Lego Space Universe.

4. Insectoids: Nice try but already the idea that alien civilizations would look like terrestrial insects seems very tacky to me. I think possibly to children too.

5. Spyrius: Blackton I and II were well concieved subthemes with strong family identities. Their replacement, Spyrius was uncoordinated in colours (some canopies where trans-blue, others trans-red, why?) and a bit random. Apart from their evil facial expressions, I cannot feel any evilness in their design.

Tmho Mars Mission and Space Police III do not capture 100% the spirit of the 80's and early 90's Lego Space but still they are much better than the mid to late 90's subthemes.

[vexorian]

Spyrius weren't truly evil, just spies. Saucers and "mechs" used different color themes but saucers were consistent (all saucers have more red than black and trans blue canopies + "lights". Mechs were consistent with each other two (trans green lights with red canopies and more black than red (Well, only one mech had a canopy so we will never know).

Nice try but already the idea that alien civilizations would look like terrestrial insects seems very tacky to me. I think possibly to children too

muahaha.

In defense of insectoids. Although the designs were so-so. The minifigs are in many ways UFO done right. The impressions are far less and those figs looked awesome really.

Life on mars.- I don't think it was that bad. My brother had the blue mech and I got the red mech and they were both great designs for their time. Consider this was the first line to have successful legged mechs.

I should scratch my statement about UFO. Although designs had too many large pieces that can only work in them and there was too much exaggeration with printed pieces, the figs looked nice and the warp wing fighter was truly great, I actually forgot how great it was. So I will say roboforce. When you consider this theme came long after spyrius you really get to wonder why the robots look worse than classic space robots in design. Plus the color scheme was not great.

Edited July 4, 2010 by vexorian

[feanor]

Spyrius weren't truly evil, just spies. Saucers and "mechs" used different color themes but saucers were consistent and well, I guess if there was more than one mech with canopy it would use trans red.

"I think possibly to children too."

muahaha.

and what would be the problem of using the same colour palette in all sets?

[vexorian]

I don't get why is that such a sacred standard. It does not really do anything good for a theme to have all the sets in that year to use the same color scheme. If anything, it reduces the variety of sci-fi pieces that will be available that year.

Consider classic space, the color scheme really varies among sets and it is great. Specific to spyrius, doour tanks and planes use the same color scheme? I don't know it just sounds unlikely that every ship in a whole planet will use the same color scheme.

Which takes us to the extreme case of life on mars. I know a lot of people dislike the amount of color differences. But it actually makes sense. The humans were a lot more of a single organization, a spac agency that arrived to mars. The martians on the other hand were actually living on that planet. Even now all our construction vehicles use yellow while most of our planes use white, in the martians' case it is clear that they gave their vehicles different colors depending of the role they had just like we humans do in our planet.

Edited July 4, 2010 by vexorian

[feanor]

I don't get why is that such a sacred standard. It does not really do anything good for a theme to have all the sets in that year to use the same color scheme. If anything, it reduces the variety of sci-fi pieces that will be available that year.

Consider classic space, the color scheme really varies among sets and it is great. Specific to spyrius, doour tanks and planes use the same color scheme? I don't know it just sounds unlikely that every ship in a whole planet will use the same color scheme.

Hmm... Because usually an agency is using a specific colour combination for all its operations.

From a practical point of view, a unified colour combination, makes products (Lego toys too) easier identifiable by the customer. And most importantly, if one theme uses strictly a specific colour combination, it's easier to combine the sets for larger MOCs...

[CP5670]

2. Roboforce: Where do I start from? The uncoordinated colours? The <insert that tiresome argument> design that looked like a haphazard pile of bricks? Every 10 year old child MOC would look better than these random robots.

3. Unitron: Underdeveloped theme, re-warmed and re-served ideas (and not even the best ones) from past Space themes. And one more comment; if Unitron where the Space Police replacing military group to protect Ice Planet 2002 civilians from the evil Spyrius, how did they make this evident? No prison pods, no insignia, no way to show their function or position in the Lego Space Universe.

These themes were probably underdeveloped due to their US-only releases. TLG apparently intended the 6991 monorail to be a kind of standalone set (the box lacks the Unitron logo and actually has the description for Spyrius on it), and only made it into a separate theme of its own the following year.

Roboforce was indeed pretty weak. I do like the Robo Raptor though and the Robo Master also has some good ideas, although the overall model looks ugly. However, all of the sets were excellent sources of parts, including many printed ones that were unique to the theme, and had some very cool minifigs. The set designs were not great but certainly weren't <insert that tiresome argument> in terms of part selection.

Consider classic space, the color scheme really varies among sets and it is great.

Classic space wasn't really a contiguous theme though, and the name was only given by AFOLs later on. The minifigs were the only thing they had in common. I think of them as consisting of three or four separate factions, identified by the color schemes.

Edited July 4, 2010 by CP5670

[Aanchir]

I never saw anything that implied Unitron to be a "good guy" faction. Their purpose was unclear (they had lasers, as did most factions, and were never placed against Spyrius explicitly, whether as victims or as opponents), but they seemed to be a fairly independent faction. The main Unitron gimmick was the modular cockpit design which could be used with any of the sets-- hence the name's emphasis on unity. It wasn't much of a theme, partly because there were only four sets and the theme concept was hardly versatile (the modular cockpit design would begin to feel overused if it were placed in too many more sets). Still, it was an attractive and unique theme in its own right.

Roboforce was indeed pretty lame, but it took LEGO an awfully long time to get a serious grasp on mecha sets. Throwbots, Galidor, and BIONICLE helped a great deal in that regard by increasing the number of joints which LEGO would begin to draw from for mecha in the future, such as the Titan XP Creator set and the Exo-Force theme.

[CP5670]

I never saw anything that implied Unitron to be a "good guy" faction. Their purpose was unclear (they had lasers, as did most factions, and were never placed against Spyrius explicitly, whether as victims or as opponents), but they seemed to be a fairly independent faction. The main Unitron gimmick was the modular cockpit design which could be used with any of the sets-- hence the name's emphasis on unity. It wasn't much of a theme, partly because there were only four sets and the theme concept was hardly versatile (the modular cockpit design would begin to feel overused if it were placed in too many more sets). Still, it was an attractive and unique theme in its own right.

There is a diorama used in several catalogs and posters where the Spyrius robots are tearing apart the Unitron monorail. The Unitrons are running away instead of fighting, so maybe they are independent civilians. Although the other Unitron models never seemed to have any relationship with Spyrius.

The most confusing thing was the status of the Spyrius androids. The box pictures for 6991 show the android seemingly cooperating with the Unitrons (on the other hand, one Dutch catalog shows him spying on the monorail and calling in backup to "steal computers"), and the box pictures for 6959 show the Spyrius commander dropping him into a pit.

[feanor]

Whether successors of the Space Police or not the fact is that Unitron was a poor theme; only four sets, a ground vehicle with peculiar wheel arrangement and a generic space station which was a copy of the Spyrius station, which in turn was a simplified version of the Ice Planet 2002 station, which in turn was also very similar to the older Blacktron and Futuron stations. And then this Star Hawk II, which was a mess; great plan view marred by those mountain-like side... thingies and a colourful, sparkly mosaic of a tail to complement the cheesiness of the set. I tend to believe that these sets were not designed by the same designers working at Lego headquarters but they must have been commissioned to some others especially to develop the theme for the American market.

The exchangeable cockpits that were the core of theme did not bring again anything new to the table because by 1995 they were extremely common since the days of classic Space and Blacktron I and II.