What makes Lego Model Team, "Model Team"?

[Lasse D]

Lets take a very nice example that shows the differences. Let me first (blatantly) divert attention to this review of 4955 Creator Big Rig, as it compares it to Model Team 5580.

As you can see, both models have nice functionality, shape and are with lots of details. This is all good, and 4955 actually makes for a good display model because of this.

But take a closer look. 5580 is built with very little compromise when it comes to realism:

The truck stands on a frame (just like real trucks). The wheels are slim, which is not only more realistic, but also uses less space when steering (See the huge gaps needed in the auto transport for comparison). The Creator truck is by comparison standing on the most simple kind of frame possible with wide tires and a low windscreen because Creator has to use the elements that are currently alive (used by other sets).

So. You will see details in Creator models, but Model Team sets stand out because of the more realistic and well proportioned details. A higher degree of realism requires more advanced building techniques and specialized pieces. When fans build "Model Team", you will therefore see a lot of SNOT, poorly connected parts and some times even illegal building techniques!

[Plastic Nurak]

But it's obvious that MT is a higher building school, and some of MT sets made TLC history. Also #5510 and #5540, that for today standards seem still a few bricky, were innovative in a lot of features (modular hood for the Formula 1 Racer! Common now, an innovation then). But, at the same time, it's not true that today Creator big items are so little interesting from a building point of view; it looks almost you're describing them as they were old Hobby Sets or early Technic ! Have you seen #6753 alternate models? They're more technical than Model Team sets... and are "just" alternate ones! I think Jamie Berard and the other designers team members, surely true professionals, must take some courage and design some 'Advanced Creator' set, for elder kids and AFOL. No doubt these sets would be succesful. #8880 was a very difficult model to build, but boxes didn't remain taking dust on shelves.

Edited August 31, 2010 by Plastic Nurak

[DLuders]

According to this Peeron search , there has only been 17 official Lego sets that are "Model Team". The pictures below display some of the elements mentioned above. I personally believe that TLG's "Model Team" marketing was not that acceptable, since the packaging looks rather "stodgy" and "dated" compared to Lego Creator's. Most of the Model Team sets were released in the 1990s. This Peeron search for "Creator" sets reveals a whopping 172 sets! There are many Creator sets that are just as good (if not better) than the official "Model Team" sets below:

10177, Boeing 787 Dreamliner:

5510, Off Road 4 X 4:

5521, Sea Jet:

5533, Red Fury:

5540, Formula 1 Racer:

5541, Blue Fury/Hot Rod:

5542, Black Thunder:

5550, Custom Rally Van:

5561, Big Foot 4x4:

5563, Racing Truck:

5571, Giant Truck/Black Cat:

5580, Highway Rig:

5581, Magic Flash:

5590, Whirl N' Wheel Super Truck:

5591, Mach II Red Bird Rig/Mach II Red Bird:

2556, +AHs-SHELL Promotional Set+AH0- F1 Ferrari:

There is one more listed in Peeron as a radio-control RC model, but there is no picture available.

[Plastic Nurak]

There is one more listed in Peeron as a radio-control RC model, but there is no picture available.

It's no officially MT, and Boeing is more a Sculpture set than a Model Team. I guess old Designers, Make & Create and early Creator sets designers were former MT's.

[Ralph_S]

Set 5510, 5540, 5580 and were the first Model Team sets and I remember them coming out, way back in 1986. I got a catalogue early in the year and it had these three sets on the back, listed as new for the summer. In particular 5580 blew me away. It was miles ahead of any LEGO set that I'd ever seen and I couldn't wait for the summer to arrive. It was by far the most realistic model I knew. It was also one of the most expensive LEGO sets that I'd ever seen and at ten years old, represented a serious investment. Ultimately I ended up saving money for all three. I also had 5590 as a child and remember putting my copy of 5580 back together when I got it (an extremely rare event) because I figured they'd go well together. I'm not sure whether Creator sets nowadays have the same effect on a ten-year-old (no matter how nicely designed the box may be).

Cheers,

Ralph

[CP5670]

I personally believe that TLG's "Model Team" marketing was not that acceptable, since the packaging looks rather "stodgy" and "dated" compared to Lego Creator's.

Lego boxes in general were actually much better back then, the cover art notwithstanding. I think all of the MT sets except 2556 had the flip-up covers and featured parts trays. It made the set feel like a premium product.

I'm not sure whether Creator sets nowadays have the same effect on a ten-year-old (no matter how nicely designed the box may be).

This is a result of how the rest of the Lego lineup has evolved though. I think the only reason kids wouldn't be as impressed by Creator sets today is that they can also see the UCS, Ferrari, etc. models in the catalogs, and have those as a basis for comparison. 5580 was groundbreaking in 1986, but if it came out today, it would not seem that impressive either.

[Ralph_S]

This is a result of how the rest of the Lego lineup has evolved though. I think the only reason kids wouldn't be as impressed by Creator sets today is that they can also see the UCS, Ferrari, etc. models in the catalogs, and have those as a basis for comparison. 5580 was groundbreaking in 1986, but if it came out today, it would not seem that impressive either.

I agree completely, but you've pretty much made my point for me. Model Team was the UCS of its day. I think that explains some of the difference in the perception between Model Team and Creator. The models may be of a similar standard (although 5580 still beats 4955 hand down, despite having only about 100 more parts), but no matter how good a Creator set might get, it just doesn't capture that same feeling.

I'm convinced that something like 5571 would still like hot cakes. I didn't buy it when it came out and part of me still regrets that.

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited August 31, 2010 by Ralph_S

[Plastic Nurak]

...I've seen sets like #6747 vanishing from shelves in a few days. I'm referring to a model with very few standard parts, cool looking, and (hallelujah) with two alternates which don't disfigure near the main one.

Edited September 1, 2010 by Plastic Nurak

[rriggs]

no matter how good a Creator set might get, it just doesn't capture that same feeling.

....in your opinion! I think that the Creator trucks in the Highway Transport and the fire engine are awesome. My 5580 simply looks old fashioned in comparison.

Cheers

Rog

[Meatman]

I always thought of model team as advanced Lego models larger in scale than your typical minifig scale and loaded with detail.

[Plastic Nurak]

My 5580 simply looks old fashioned in comparison.

Don't touch totems !

[Ralph_S]

....in your opinion! I think that the Creator trucks in the Highway Transport and the fire engine are awesome. My 5580 simply looks old fashioned in comparison.

Cheers

Rog

That chip on your shoulder doesn't suit you.

Of course it's my opinion. Have you only read the final sentence of my post? I've written several times in this thread that Creator sets are very close to what Model Team was like.

I don't know whether you bought your 5580 recently or whether you too bought it when you were a child.

I bought 5580 when I was 11, saving money for it for months. It was by far the best set I'd ever seen. the most detailed, the most realistic and with fantastic parts that you didn't get in other sets (grey 1x1 round plates and the windscreen, for instance). No matter how good Creator sets are, they simply cannot compare to the feeling I got when I finally got my hands on that set. Creator sets will never blow me away like that first Model Team set did.

This discussion is similar to discussing the width of minifig scale cars with lovers of classic four-wides. I was never a huge fan of town as a child, and while I had four-wide cars, I don't really have nostalgic feelings about them. I think slightly wider cars and considerably wider trucks look better, and that's why I build them. They look more like real cars. However, plenty of people stick to four-wides nonetheless, because they are what they learned to love.

You can't beat nostalgia.

Ralph

[rriggs]

I don't know whether you bought your 5580 recently or whether you too bought it when you were a child.

I bought 5580 when I was 11, saving money for it for months. It was by far the best set I'd ever seen. the most detailed, the most realistic and with fantastic parts that you didn't get in other sets (grey 1x1 round plates and the windscreen, for instance). No matter how good Creator sets are, they simply cannot compare to the feeling I got when I finally got my hands on that set. Creator sets will never blow me away like that first Model Team set did.

My brother and I combined our pocket money to buy 5580 when we were in our very early teens. It was, and is, and awesome Lego set and one of my most memorable and proud purchases. However, I am comparing the actual models and not the feeling that they give me and on this front 5580 now looks old-fashioned. I'm not saying it looks bad because it still looks great but times have moved on. With no UCS-equivilent vehicles currently available, the Creator trucks are today's pinnacle of realistic Lego vehicle modelling. The Technic model have more features and are cleverer but the (necessary) partial bodywork detracts from their realism.

I for one would love to see a ressurection of a Model Team-type brand which would undoubtably be awesome given improvements in parts and modelling techniques over the last 15 years but in the absence of this, the Creator sets are more than worthy successors to the brand.

You can't beat nostalgia.

Nostalgia distorts fact.

Cheers

Rog

[Rijkvv]

People say Creator sets are more detailed than MT sets. And in fact, the overall shape of Creator sets is maybe better, due to modern curved pieces that weren't available in the '80s and '90s. However, looking to the details, I think Creator can use a lot of improvement. The windshield wipers in MT sets still look better than anything that Creator sets have.

[Ralph_S]

My brother and I combined our pocket money to buy 5580 when we were in our very early teens. It was, and is, and awesome Lego set and one of my most memorable and proud purchases. However, I am comparing the actual models and not the feeling that they give me and on this front 5580 now looks old-fashioned. I'm not saying it looks bad because it still looks great but times have moved on. With no UCS-equivilent vehicles currently available, the Creator trucks are today's pinnacle of realistic Lego vehicle modelling. The Technic model have more features and are cleverer but the (necessary) partial bodywork detracts from their realism.

I for one would love to see a ressurection of a Model Team-type brand which would undoubtably be awesome given improvements in parts and modelling techniques over the last 15 years but in the absence of this, the Creator sets are more than worthy successors to the brand.

Nostalgia distorts fact.

Cheers

Rog

If you think this is about facts, you are mistaken. It's all just opinion.

Ralph

Edit: I realised that we are looking at two sides of the same coin.

I like Model Team sets more than Creator sets because the Model Team sets were cutting-edge in many respects. You argue that the Creator sets are equal to older Model Team sets, but that a resurrected Model Team line ought to be cutting edge.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Ralph_S

[CP5670]

People say Creator sets are more detailed than MT sets. And in fact, the overall shape of Creator sets is maybe better, due to modern curved pieces that weren't available in the '80s and '90s. However, looking to the details, I think Creator can use a lot of improvement. The windshield wipers in MT sets still look better than anything that Creator sets have.

I never liked the look of those wipers. They look way too small and don't line up with the windshields at all, although I guess it was the best TLG could do with the parts available back then. The wipers look especially silly on the larger scale models like 5571 and 5563.

[Plastic Nurak]

People say Creator sets are more detailed than MT sets.

It's not necessarily true. Maybe it could be some years ago, when models like #4404, #4888 and #4896 were released (like I said before, I think some of old Make and Create designers were former MT), now this comparison could be made with bigger Creator models only and other few exception (like #6747), while all MT sets were specials, including bricky #5510 and 5540 ones.

I for one would love to see a ressurection of a Model Team-type brand which would undoubtably be awesome given improvements in parts and modelling techniques over the last 15 years

Me too . Let's go to write a letter to Ambassadors !

Edited September 8, 2010 by Plastic Nurak

[Perterz]

I've always wanted the Model Team trucks when I was a kid, now after dark-age, I still want them!

Not even 1 Creator set got me impressed like those Model Team trucks still do today.

Also I still find the older Technic models with bricks instead of beams far more attractive in some way aswell.

[rriggs]

Edit: I realised that we are looking at two sides of the same coin.

You know that. I know that. A bit of healthy debate is always fun though isn't it?

But, how do we keep getting into these discussions...?? Do you remember our MOC vs Instruction-Built models thread?

I guess this is where I say it's your fault; you say it's my fault; and off we go again....

Cheers

Rog

Edited September 8, 2010 by rriggs

[Ralph_S]

You know that. I know that. A bit of healthy debate is always fun though isn't it?

But, how do we keep getting into these discussions...?? Do you remember our MOC vs Instruction-Built models thread?

I guess this is where I say it's your fault; you say it's my fault; and off we go again....

Cheers

Rog

I think both of us shouldn't take these things too seriously. It is all in good fun. That MOC vs. Instruction-built models thread is one I won't forget anytime soon.

Cheers,

Ralph

[Plastic Nurak]

That MOC vs. Instruction-built models thread is one I won't forget anytime soon.

I wanna read it! Where can I find this memorable thread that make you sick ?

Edited September 9, 2010 by Plastic Nurak

[Smartiepants]

I picked up a "new" unopened Ferrari 2556 on eBay over the weekend & the builder in me wants to rip it open & put it together but the collector part of me want to keep it boxed & new, what a dilemma .... I'll end up building it I know LOL

[jonwil]

I think the definition of Model Team is realistic looks, high details (with lots of tiny, often specialized, parts) and large scale.

I own the blue Lamborghini police car and I think that it is more deserving of the label Model Team than most Creator sets (I wish I had been able to get the yellow Lambo too)

I think sets like the VW Van and Sopwith Camel would also be deserving of the label Model Team. Less convinced that the VW Beetle or the 787 are Model Team because they use so many basic parts and not so many specialty parts as compared to the specialty parts use of the VW Van, Sopwith, Red Barron and Wright Flyer. I even think that the Ultimate Collectors Series Batmobile has some of the elements of Model Team.