Comparing collectible vs 'classic' minifigs

[Fugazi]

Ever since I bought my first collectible minifig, I felt there was a difference between the collectible and regular figs. The plastic felt different and lighter. And after reading yet another discussion about collectible minifig quality, I decided that I had to find out in a scientific way whether there really was a measurable difference between classic and collectible minifig plastic.

I chose two random minifigs from my collection, one from Green Grocer (without the hair piece) and the Series 1 crash test dummy.

Using a scientific precision scale I have access to, I weighed different minifig parts in order to find out how significant was the difference between the two.

So here are the results:

____________classic_______collectible

head:-------0.543 g-------0.550 g

torso:------1.310 g-------1.230 g

legs:-------1.191 g-------1.187 g

hand:_______0.093 g_______0.093 g

minifig:----3.043 g-------2.966 g

Surprisingly, while there are slight differences between the classic and collectible minifig torso weights, overall the differences are so tiny that it would be impossible to 'feel' them in our hands. The whole collectible minifig is less than 0.1 g lighter than the regular minifig.

I also tried to compare a few accessories. In particular, the 2x2 tiles included with the collectible minifigs felt lighter to me than regular 2x2 tiles.

I also compared two whips, the white one from the Ringleader minifig, the brown from a Prince of Persia set.

I took care to select accessories with similar shaped moulds -- some moulds like the chicken leg, the bow and the shovel were obviously modified for the collectible series so they couldn't be compared.

And here are the results:

____________classic_______collectible

tile:-------0.497 g-------0.485 g

whip:-------0.244 g-------0.245 g

While the collectible tile is slightly lighter, the whip is pretty much identical. Of course the whip is made from a different, flexible plastic.

So is 0.01 g enough difference to explain the lighter feel of the collectible parts? I strongly doubt it. Assuming that the moulds are similar and the amount of plastic used in each part is identical, the densities of the plastics used in the classic and collectible parts are similar as well. So if there are any differences in the quality 'feel' of the minifigs, it must be something else. The surface texture perhaps, I do have the feeling that the surfaces of the collectible parts are slightly less polished, therefore less shiny. The transparency issues is perhaps due to less pigment used per kg of plastic than in regular minifigs, but there's no way for us to measure this. Also it would be interesting to find out if the collectible parts are as resistant to scratches as the classic parts. But I'm not planning to test it on my Lego!

Interestingly, all of the collectible minifig parts and accessories have new part numbers. For instance the 2x2 tiles above: the regular tile has part number 3068 while the collectible mould has part number 88409. I don't know what to make of it, but it's obvious that TLG doesn't want the collectible pieces to be mistaken for classic ones. Curious.

Comments welcome!

[Skafte]

This is really interesting - and I love the numbers from the precision scales!

The most common complaint that I've heard is with the colours and opacity - that the Collectible Minifigs are more translucent than regular figs. Also that the body parts move more easily - you don't happen to have access to a digital torque meter, do you?

[Fugazi]

This is really interesting - and I love the numbers from the precision scales!

The most common complaint that I've heard is with the colours and opacity - that the Collectible Minifigs are more translucent than regular figs. Also that the body parts move more easily - you don't happen to have access to a digital torque meter, do you?

No I don't! But I find that in general the joints in my collectible minifigs are actually stiffer than in (recent) classic minifigs. We may need to have a poll about this!

[Aanchir]

No I don't! But I find that in general the joints in my collectible minifigs are actually stiffer than in (recent) classic minifigs. We may need to have a poll about this!

Glad to see I'm not imagining the stiffer joints or the similar weights! Of course, ideally this sort of test would use multiple trials with different collectible minifigs. Still, I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that there is no significant weight difference.

Why do people seem to think there's a weight difference? The obvious answer would be that the parts come from China, and thus people are uncharacteristically skeptical about the quality of these figs. It goes without saying that the collectible figs get far more scrutiny than the figs in other sets or even other Chinese-manufactured parts, like the Rock Monster pieces from Power Miners, the specialized Toy Story parts, or any other parts with the advanced printing characteristic of the Chinese manufacturing facility.

Granted, while I doubt quality issues are much more prevalent with the collectible figs than with other figs, I do feel people have more reason to worry about the quality. Perhaps you might get a low-quality part in a regular LEGO set, but if you do you have the option of getting a replacement part from LEGO customer service. That is not an option with parts from the collectible minifigures, since the production run is so limited. Still, from my experience the collectible minifigures are a safe and satisfying investment.

[Peewit]

Interesting idea to approach this in a scientific maner. I like it. However being a researcher and used to spoting threats to validity in scientific studies I immediatly recognise one thing you should do to improve your study. We don't know the variability in mass between minifigs of the same type. So you should measure the weight of a number of classic and a number of collectible minifigs and not just on one of each type. Preferable you should include several of the exact same figure.

[Fugazi]

Of course, ideally this sort of test would use multiple trials with different collectible minifigs. Still, I think this is pretty conclusive evidence that there is no significant weight difference.

Interesting idea to approach this in a scientific maner. I like it. However being a researcher and used to spoting threats to validity in scientific studies I immediatly recognise one thing you should do to improve your study. We don't know the variability in mass between minifigs of the same type. So you should measure the weight of a number of classic and a number of collectible minifigs and not just on one of each type. Preferable you should include several of the exact same figure.

Of course I agree with you both. I actually expected a HUGE difference in weight between the two minifigs, so I didn't bother taking more of them with me in order to test for variability. Besides, I didn't want to spend an hour weighing minifigs at my work place! But considering the results, I should go back and add more samples to my study.

And WHY did I expect such a huge difference? In my hands, the minifigs DO feel different, somehow the different texture must mislead my brain into thinking they weigh differently! I can't explain it otherwise! Because in a blind test (say picking the two minifigs out of a pocket with my eyes closed) I can tell that the classic minifig feels heavier EVERY TIME!

[vexorian]

I don't think mass would be the measure.

Hmnn, when I think of bad quality , and I am not really talking about collectable minifigures, I think of less resistance to use. This probably happens because of all the times I bought bulks of used parts that for some reason always contain megabloks, other brands and bootlegs, so I've seen badly used parts from many brands. Which made me conclude that when parts are relatively new, megabloks are even hard to recognize from TLG, but used parts tend to look weaker - Edges go away easier, scratches tend to be more noticeable, and so and so. So I guess that for a experiment we could sacrifice two minifigs and apply wear and use to both of them, like putting each on a container with sand and rocks and agitating it for en equal amount of time then washing them.

But boy, I oppose to wasting two minifigs like that .

edit: also, the weights are too small. I wonder if you could try with X figs at once

Edited September 27, 2010 by vexorian

[Fugazi]

Well, what I tried to address here was the 'feeling' that collectible minifigs are made of cheaper quality plastic, and not the quality itself. I can't say for sure that collectible minifigs are of lower quality, and I can't say that lower density plastic automatically equates with lower quality anyway. But I wanted to find out what it is about them that gives that feeling, and now I know it's not their weight. Texture, colour, opacity and resistance are more difficult to measure, but it will be interesting to see if in the long run people start complaining about their collectible minifigs cracking prematurely or scratching more easily than other minifigs.

edit: also, the weights are too small. I wonder if you could try with X figs at once

Of course the small differences would multiply. But I think that a 3% weight difference is too small to have an impact on my perception of quality. It must be something else!

[CP5670]

I like how you're approaching this. As you said, the weight difference is far too small to be noticeable, but you should probably try it with minifigs of the same color. There are generally minor differences in brick weight due to the colors. The texture does seem to be slightly rougher than regular minfigs, which may be the reason they look less shiny, but I'm not sure if you can just feel that without looking at it visually.

For the color and opacity problem, only minifigs in certain colors will be affected. I don't think you can measure it objectively using household equipment but it should be easily visible in a picture taken with the right kind of lighting, alongside a regular minifig of the same color for comparison. You should see something similar to this:

[Fugazi]

Good advice. I know for sure that the yellows of the two minifigs I have tested are different. The hands and head are especially obvious: the collectible minifig yellow is a bit 'greener', not quite as deep and rich. I think it's very similar to your round 2x2 brick example. But alas I don't think it obvious in my photos. I think it's the issue that annoys me the most with the collectible minifigs. I can live with different plastics, but I'd rather have consistent colours. Of course the colour problem is not limited to the minifigs, but it would seem they are currently the worse offenders.

[charlieboy]

Wow,you must have lots of spare time! I must be the only afol who doesnt care in the least about the new minifig quality

[prateek]

I don't care for the quality as I understand Lego's profit margin situation, but it is interesting to read this article.

[dr_spock]

Would measuring the density of the plastic of similar parts provide any interesting results?

[Fugazi]

Would measuring the density of the plastic of similar parts provide any interesting results?

Measuring the weight was actually a way to estimate the density. Because density = weight / volume, and it's difficult to measure the volume precisely, I compared pieces that I assumed would have the same volume (tiles vs tiles, legs vs legs...) Of course if the moulds are significantly different, this measurement becomes irrelevant.

What I first thought was that collectible minifigs were made of lower density plastic. But since they weigh roughly the same as classic minifigs, this doesn't seem to be the case.

[Condor]

Thanks for the analysis! I for one haven't really noticed a difference between the collectible and the classic minifigs. Though I guess I'm not as discerning as some of you

Have you done a comparison between older 'classic' minifigs and the Green Grocer minifig? I wonder if they all have minor weight differences between each other.

[davee123]

Why do people seem to think there's a weight difference?

I think it's because the Chinese figures are more translucent in their coloring, making the plastic appear cheap. And our natural tendency is to think that translucent, cheap plastic is lighter weight than heavy-duty plastic, which ought to be dense and heavy. Hence, I would guess it's not based on the fact that we feel like the parts are actually heavier, but rather that we ASSUME they're heavier thanks to the visual perception of the plastic.

It goes without saying that the collectible figs get far more scrutiny than the figs in other sets or even other Chinese-manufactured parts, like the Rock Monster pieces from Power Miners, the specialized Toy Story parts, or any other parts with the advanced printing characteristic of the Chinese manufacturing facility.

I'll grant that these figures probably get a little more attention, but I have to say there are a LOT of AFOLs that scrutinize ALL the elements they get-- especially when something just "feels" wrong. I remember noticing that IMMEDIATELY when receiving the 2007 castle sets, with their milky gray bricks. It was only afterward that I learned about the new technique they were using with dye injection. Fans are pretty perceptive, and although LEGO is usually quick to respond with "we'll get it fixed!", LEGO has seemingly not followed through with the Chinese-produced figures. I haven't gotten one yet that's resolved the plastic issue, even though I believe we were told that the issues would be addressed for Series 1 collectible minifigs. Hence, they get even more scrutiny, because people are increasingly aware of the problem.

DaveE

[Rick]

However being a researcher and used to spoting threats to validity in scientific studies I immediatly recognise one thing you should do to improve your study.

Indeed, I'd suspect the slight variation you find here to be similar across the 'classic' minifigs as well. Was there ever such a theory that there would be weight differences? Anyway, you're on your way to disproving the theory that there are differences, which is what science is ultimately about.

There are generally minor differences in brick weight due to the colors.

... and it gets even better.

Can we officially nominate this for most nerdy topic of 2010?

[Nabii]

Bjarke the LEGO Quality guy was at the Skaebaek LEGOfan weekend last week and gave a couple of talks about LEGO quality to the fans who were there.

First - exactly the same plastic, bought from the same plastic manufacturers, is used for the china figures as the rest of them, there is no difference, and all measurements are exactly the same to within 1000's of a millimetre. There might slight surface finish differences due to use of different molds.

Second - LEGO colour is added across the world using chemical colouring bought from various chemical companies, the same batches can be used across all the LEGO factories so it should be close to identical. However the colouring is bought from several suppliers (apparently buying only from only one company would be a problem if they have a fire or something and LEGO cannot get colour for their bricks until the chemical companies factory is rebuilt!). Anyway, one company has drifted slightly green in it's yellow dye and one has moved slightly orange - though well within LEGO's strict tolerances when these two batches are used alongside each other it can be obvious they are different. As minifure hands and arms are different types of plastic I guess they were coloured using these different batches of colourant? That would explain the issue some of us are having.

According to Bjarke the colourants are now both being returned to a more centre of LEGO's yellow colour and this problem should therefore disappear in the next year or so.

[Aanchir]

Bjarke the LEGO Quality guy was at the Skaebaek LEGOfan weekend last week and gave a couple of talks about LEGO quality to the fans who were there.

First - exactly the same plastic, bought from the same plastic manufacturers, is used for the china figures as the rest of them, there is no difference, and all measurements are exactly the same to within 1000's of a millimetre. There might slight surface finish differences due to use of different molds.

Second - LEGO colour is added across the world using chemical colouring bought from various chemical companies, the same batches can be used across all the LEGO factories so it should be close to identical. However the colouring is bought from several suppliers (apparently buying only from only one company would be a problem if they have a fire or something and LEGO cannot get colour for their bricks until the chemical companies factory is rebuilt!). Anyway, one company has drifted slightly green in it's yellow dye and one has moved slightly orange - though well within LEGO's strict tolerances when these two batches are used alongside each other it can be obvious they are different. As minifure hands and arms are different types of plastic I guess they were coloured using these different batches of colourant? That would explain the issue some of us are having.

According to Bjarke the colourants are now both being returned to a more centre of LEGO's yellow colour and this problem should therefore disappear in the next year or so.

Thanks. Glad to see I wasn't imagining the "sameness" of the plastics. Issues like this always get me kinda worried about whether I just have no critical eye and am a mindless LEGO-buying drone (of course, I enjoyed the film The Last Airbender, so it's easy to get the impression that I have no taste).

Of course, this doesn't mean that quality issues will never happen in any factory. The same type of plastic does not ensure the same quality-- I remember one issue in the BIONICLE community in 2007 about parts breaking, allegedly due to a batch of lime green parts not cooling properly. Mass-production is tricky business, and with LEGO bricks the process is complex enough that there are many ways for things to go wrong.

This plastic issue from 2007, however, is also one of the reasons I'm cynical about claims that Chinese production is worse than other production, since some fans naturally blamed "Chinese production" for the quality issue. Note that this was two years before Chinese production even began, as even a glance at the back of any BIONICLE set's packaging at the time would have told you.

Real differences in production did exist then, of course, like LEGO making their parts in other companies' factories (which was finally ended in 2009 when LEGO assumed complete control of all their company factories, although of course they already exercised control over the most technically demanding production like that of BIONICLE parts). People never made one complaint about this, or about the beginning of Mexican production, or any other changes in production that occurred around that time. Thus a lot of the fears about Chinese production can be chalked up to good old-fashioned prejudicial stereotyping.

Still, it's good to be able to put some of these complaints to rest. Chinese production does not use lower-quality plastic, and will not be "tainting" regular LEGO sets anytime soon. And as always, LEGO still cares about their product quality.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Aanchir

[CP5670]

Anyway, one company has drifted slightly green in it's yellow dye and one has moved slightly orange - though well within LEGO's strict tolerances when these two batches are used alongside each other it can be obvious they are different. As minifure hands and arms are different types of plastic I guess they were coloured using these different batches of colourant? That would explain the issue some of us are having.

According to Bjarke the colourants are now both being returned to a more centre of LEGO's yellow colour and this problem should therefore disappear in the next year or so.

It's nice to hear some official word on this, but the same person gave a talk about this at Brickfair in 2008, and said almost the exact same thing about yellow back then. I'm taking it with a grain of salt this time. I think TLG's present-day tolerances on some colors are simply not as strict as they would like us to believe.

People never made one complaint about this, or about the beginning of Mexican production, or any other changes in production that occurred around that time.

I certainly did. There was actually quite a bit of discussion on the Bricklink forum in late 2006 when the clear ABS pieces first started to come out in sets. However, you are right that the AFOL community at large barely noticed it back then, and I think that is why we're still seeing these issues today. TLG never had any incentive to correct them.

[Zeya]

I wonder what the error of the scale is, because the weights differ by less than one hundredth of a gram, except for the torso at two hundredths. It would also be cool to see the table include some other minifigures (same shape and not bulkier), like maybe a townsperson and then a space astronaut, etc. There might just be these variations among minifigures in general coming off the line. Basically, if I was a scientist I wouldn't draw any conclusions without more data.

Yes, nerdiest post of 2010 indeed. :)

[Aanchir]

I certainly did. There was actually quite a bit of discussion on the Bricklink forum in late 2006 when the clear ABS pieces first started to come out in sets. However, you are right that the AFOL community at large barely noticed it back then, and I think that is why we're still seeing these issues today. TLG never had any incentive to correct them.

I'm not talking specifically about AFOLs, and I'm not talking about noticing the problems. It's more about who gets blamed and what other assumptions people make about the issue. No matter how informed people are about an issue, they are bound to jump to conclusions about the things they don't understand-- for instance, the assumption that LEGO moved production to China specifically so they could get away with cheaper products (a nonsensical assumption, since the only way a different country allows for different product quality is in terms of safety regulations, and even moving production to China never gives companies an "OK" to make unsafe products). The reason companies move production to China is usually because of cheaper (and less regulated) labor, which has nothing to do with product quality. Whether or not the product quality goes up or down, people often make unrealistic assumptions about the reasons and motivations behind those changes.

I don't mean to imply that Chinese production is just as good as any other production (or just as ethical), but some people seem to have this idea that everything about Chinese production is bad and everything bad is because of Chinese production. In fact, many of the things people obsess over like the new molds on the collectible minifigures are an example of LEGO putting more money into production, not less. Steel molds are becoming increasingly expensive and there's no way that LEGO could save money by allowing flaws to be included in brand-new replacement molds.

[Fugazi]

Can we officially nominate this for most nerdy topic of 2010?

Wait, 2010 isn't over yet!

Bjarke the LEGO Quality guy was at the Skaebaek LEGOfan weekend last week and gave a couple of talks about LEGO quality to the fans who were there.

First - exactly the same plastic, bought from the same plastic manufacturers, is used for the china figures as the rest of them, there is no difference, and all measurements are exactly the same to within 1000's of a millimetre. There might slight surface finish differences due to use of different molds.

Thanks for the official confirmation! This pretty much settles the issue.

I wonder what the error of the scale is, because the weights differ by less than one hundredth of a gram, except for the torso at two hundredths. It would also be cool to see the table include some other minifigures (same shape and not bulkier), like maybe a townsperson and then a space astronaut, etc. There might just be these variations among minifigures in general coming off the line. Basically, if I was a scientist I wouldn't draw any conclusions without more data.

The error of the scale is 0.1 mg (0.0001 g). I could add other minifigs to the study, and I'm sure that some variation would be found (meaning a variation more important than the error of the instrument). But the point of the whole thing is that there are no weight differences significant enough between those two specific minifigs that could explain a different perception of their quality.

[prateek]

Okay. I got my Mexican today, and I can see a big difference in the plastic. It's less shiny, but in no way worse quality. The specialized pieces are actually better quality than some Lego parts. Compared to some of the pieces this year (i.e. silver axe, Dagger of Time, etc...) these are really good.

[vexorian]

Okay. I got my Mexican today, and I can see a big difference in the plastic. It's less shiny, but in no way worse quality. The specialized pieces are actually better quality than some Lego parts. Compared to some of the pieces this year (i.e. silver axe, Dagger of Time, etc...) these are really good.

Weapons are a case of TLG using more flexible plastic for safety concerns and the result is fairy awful. It happens all the time with Bionicle. I guess it happened with system.

If a minifig head piece looks more opaque it is low quality and a downer.