TLG overreacting this year with letting to deleate prelim pics?

[MetroiD]

In no way, kind or form are TLG overreacting. What they've been doing lately may look a bit harsh, I agree, but it is neither unfounded, nor unreasonable of them, especially after multiple complaints, warnings, etc. The company is merely protecting its own intellectual and industrial property, to which it is 100% entitled to. The fact that we, as LEGO fans, have grown accustomed to their management and lawyers being a bit more lax about these things, is what makes us overreact now that things have suddenly become what they should have been in the first place.

At the end of the day - you don't see car manufacturers react too kindly to pictures of their upcoming models leaked on the Internet, do you? Yes, LEGO might be just a toy, but don't forget that toys in general are an extremely competitive market.

And one more thing most of you have overlooked - TLG have just lost that court case in Brussels and had their trademark rights on LEGO bricks revoked, so now everyone with the capability to do so is free to produce as many bricks and sets as they like and place them on the market. Of course, under such circumstances, TLG would be extremely interested in ensuring that they are on the safe side - hence they do everything they can in order to ensure that.

As a conclusion, I can only say that this whole thing about prelim pics is really being blown out of proportion. So what if we get to see some pics of a new sets a couple of months earlier - we still can't actually buy the set, and it's not like we really have to know what's coming out next in order to plan our household finances, is it?

P.S.: As to your poll, K-D - the pics are never actually hosted on EB, so they can't really be "deleted" from Eurobricks... so I don't really get the point.

[fred67]

Confidential means that the company has legal rights and can sue anyone that has had anything to do with putting the images on the internet or hosting them.

I honestly don't believe that is true.

Copyright is law in almost every country, but I don't see how private "confidentiality" contracts can bind anybody but the people who are party to them.

Let me put it this way... I could put a stamp on pictures that says "by posting this you agree to pay me $25."

Do you really think that would hold up in a court of law?

Edit: I want to point out that I'm not suggesting it's OK, morally, ethically, or otherwise... I'm saying I don't think it's legally binding for someone to upload a picture marked "confidential" unless they've actually got some sort of contract with the party that made the picture. I haven't done this, and I don't encourage others to do it - I'm suggesting there is no legal standing, as it's a private matter, and as such, would require a legal binding between two parties to make it legally enforceable.

On the other hand, if they approached it as a copyright matter, I would say they would have a much better legal standing.

Edited September 29, 2010 by fred67

[Hewman]

I think it increases their profit (as well as being their full legal right to enforce this). My reasoning is that the earlier pics are released the more you get used to a set and it seems less novel over time, thereby making it less likely to buy. Now I think there is an optimal time to release pics before a product goes on the market in order to build enthusiasm but this timeframe is much closer to release date than the 6 months or so until the Pharaoh sets will be released. The other thing is that these are all preliminary pics and some sets could change radically, and Lego wouldn't want to have to deal with the PR when peole are complaining they didn't release what was seen in preliminary pics.

[Joebot]

While I agree with everyone here that TLC was within their legal rights, their response has been clumsy and ham-fisted, and makes them look rather clueless in regards to online marketing. Instead of cracking down on fan websites that are hosting prelim pics (an utterly pointless, futile gesture), why not tap into the fans' interest? Other toy companies do this stuff all the time. If you look at big conventions like ToyFair or Comic Con, toy companies release sneak peaks of their upcoming products in order to drive up buzz and hype and interest.

I remember way back when FBTB used to be relevant, they got some early pictures of some upcoming Star Wars sets. Nobody else had these pictures, and the FBTB admins slowly released the pictures, one per day, with various hints and clues as to the set's content. That was a total blast! I can't even imagine the web traffic they must have gotten! Now why doesn't TLC do something like that on their own website?

Apple is the most secretive company on the planet, and days before they have a big product announcment, it's all over the web what it's going to be. Apple (and TLC) are global companies with many partners and far-flung manufacturing facilities. You simply can't keep it a secret. Not anymore. This is the way the internet age works. So, you either futilely try to clamp down on the leaks (and risk irritating or alienating your biggest consumers), or you learn how to use the fan websites to your own benefit.

[MetroiD]

...and days before they have a big product announcment, it's all over the web what it's going to be.

The key here is "days". Chinese bootleggers, Mega&&&&&s and other manufacturers can't really manage to launch a similar product within a few days. However, a month, two or even more - as is the case here - may be more than sufficient. As to toys - licences cover a lot these days, so not everyone can come up with a new Barbie, Star Wars toy of sorts or something else and just put it up for sale. That's not the case with LEGO bricks and sets anymore, so the lack of trademark protection means the company just HAS to be extra cautious about its upcoming products, or run the risk of having market competitors place something similar on the market before LEGO does.

[CP5670]

The point about bootleg brands seems to be another argument that doesn't hold water. For one thing, it remains very simple for the bootleggers to find the pictures if they really wanted to, given how easy it is for us consumers to do so. The bootleggers also tend to go into different markets than TLG (as their products would be banned in most developed countries), so they don't need to release their copies before the Lego sets come out.

One problem with this suggestion is that when sets are leaked this early, it's extremely possible the hype will have worn off by the time the actual sets are released. Let's face it-- after a few pages of comments about new, leaked pictures, people stop having anything meaningful to say about them. The discussion becomes stale, and basically dies out until actual, finalized pics come around to revive interest.

Furthermore, who's to say that covering up the images doesn't generate hype in itself? People get a lot more excited about leaked pictures when they're the only pictures available. Letting everybody and their brother operate a folder on an image hosting site with all the new pics takes away that feeling of exclusivity.

Most of the leaks and discussions I've seen this year were quite the opposite. People were talking about various intricacies of the sets right up to their release. For example, nobody was entirely sure how the 8043 excavator worked until it was released, and there was lots of speculation on how its mechanisms might be laid out. I would think TLG would want this.

I see your point about the exclusivity creating hype, but that would be an argument for intentionally leaving one or two major sites alone and going after the others, which is not what you see TLG doing.

[Jack Bricker]

Well I have to say that I think it is rather foolish and silly of the Lego company to be spending it's resources on such a rediculous lock-down rant on it's preliminary pictures. I mean really.

Software, and electronic companies have to keep this kind of information secret about their compunter chip designs so that they don't get copied by their competitors but, Lego doesn't have any real serious competitors out side of a very few and small bootleg companies that nobody, not even the Lego fans, like so why bother.

It would be much smarter for the Lego company to take advantage of the "free" advertising on the web and just expect and plan for the new images coming out in the retailer catalogs.

Now that being said about the generic sets I could see the Lego company getting a little nervous about the Disney licensed sets coming out because of the potential for plot points being revealed but, even then I think the Lego company could do much better than this.

The rule of thumb in dealing with the web is "don't allow the information to be released at all until you're ready".

Edited September 29, 2010 by Jack Bricker

[Calabar]

I need time to gather money to buy new sets, so preliminary pictures are very useful for me:

if I see something I want, I can be ready (with money) when it will be released.

Otherwise I could loose the opportunity to buy it addressing my monetary resource towards something other.

[Skafte]

I need time to gather money to buy new sets, so preliminary pictures are very useful for me:

if I see something I want, I can be ready (with money) when it will be released.

Otherwise I could loose the opportunity to buy it addressing my monetary resource towards something other.

This might also be why LEGO doesn't want pics prematurely released. Your'e not buying anything now, because your'e saving for the unreleased sets. If no sets were ever seen in advance, we would first see them on S@H or other online stores and in the brick in toy stores. Nothing triggers "want" more than the option to take it home. NOW!

[Calabar]

This might also be why LEGO doesn't want pics prematurely released. Your'e not buying anything now, because your'e saving for the unreleased sets. If no sets were ever seen in advance, we would first see them on S@H or other online stores and in the brick in toy stores. Nothing triggers "want" more than the option to take it home. NOW!

But that's not my situation, surely.

I already know released sets so I already have money aside for that.

But, if I know about future sets, I can renounce to other "not lego" outgoings in order to be sure to have the money to buy that.

[drdavewatford]

Aside from TLG's worries about cloning, another concern of the company is that new products will be slated on the basis of poor quality pictures of sets which aren't even finalised yet, which will in turn potentially affect sales.

See it from their perspective - a poor quality scan is posted on the web, a bunch of people say the set looks rubbish and they won't buy it, this opinion is shared over a thousand websites and forums, and it's easy to see how, rather than creating a buzz about a new product, you get the opposite. All on the basis of poor quality, illegal images of a set which might not even be in it's final form yet....

It's almost as if people think they have a divine right to see whatever they want, when they want these days. Sorry to disappoint you, but you actually have no right at all ! Just enjoy the sets. and allow TLG to run their business how they see fit - they know much better than you do what's good for business and what isn't....

[Calabar]

See it from their perspective - a poor quality scan is posted on the web, a bunch of people say the set looks rubbish and they won't buy it, this opinion is shared over a thousand websites and forums, and it's easy to see how, rather than creating a buzz about a new product, you get the opposite. All on the basis of poor quality, illegal images of a set which might not even be in it's final form yet....

I think it is a false issue.

Preliminary Images can create hype, and than desire to own the set.

But, let's imagine that a set could appear wrongly awful in preliminary images... what happens?

It could happen that the buyer decide to reserve its money to other sets, but, after the set is officially released, it could decide to buy that set too... so buying one more set than expected.

In conclusion, even in this situation, preliminary images could be an advantage for LEGO sales.

So, honestly I can't see motivations to hide preliminary images other than avoid copying from competitors, but also I think that competitors are not surely worried by the deletion of preliminary images: they surely have other means to know about that.

[drdavewatford]

"I think it is a false issue. "

That's your opinion, but LEGO themselves have stated the argument about preliminary images harming the business; if they really thought that the release of preliminary images would help the business I'm sure they'd turn a blind eye to it.....

Let's be honest - we all love to see what new sets are coming, and if I stumble upon an image while browsing the forums I certainly don't close my eyes and change the page ! I do however get irritated when people think that (1) they have a right to see the images, and (2) they know better than TLG what's best for the business.

Dr. D.

[vexorian]

I think TLG's approach to internet marketing is naive and that they are missing opportunities by covering up leaks instead of using them to generate hype.

It is not like removing the pics stops the hype. A lot of people that get to forums and sites after the deletion get curious and google for the pics and end up getting in plenty of places where they are talking about the new sets.

Waiting some hours before asking for removal I think actually increases the hype.

[Calabar]

That's your opinion,

Obviously it is. I even wrote "I think" to highlight that.

I thought this topic has been opened to share our opinions, so I gave mine.

What I wrote is right for me, but cannot be the same for other people.

So, in my personal experience, preliminary image make me buy more lego, not less!

[Joebot]

I do however get irritated when people think that (1) they have a right to see the images, and (2) they know better than TLG what's best for the business.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread claiming that we have a "right" to see the images. However, I do question your second point. What's wrong with some healthy, well-intentioned criticism?

TLC has done some colossally bone-headed things in their history, to the point of almost putting themselves out of business ten years ago. As consumers of their prodoucts, we are well within our rights to question and criticize their occasionally dumb business decisions (and conversely, to praise their good business decisions). They are not some holy, religious institution, perfect and infallible. Screw that. When they do something stupid (and I think cracking down on fan websites is VERY stupid, not to mention pointless), why can't we, as fans and consumers, come onto this board and post our thoughts?

Just because we love their products does not make the company above reproach. Otherwise, we become nothing but fanboy apologists. Aside from being sort of weird and pathetic, that also makes for a very boring message board.

[drdavewatford]

"why can't we, as fans and consumers, come onto this board and post our thoughts? "

You can, and you are !! That's what these forums are for.

For what it's worth, I personally agree that this crackdown on preliminary images is pointless, and I also happen to agree that the hype and interest generated by the information leaks and preliminary pictures probably far outweighs any negative impact on sales of critical comments. I was however putting the other side of the argument, as stated by TLG - aren't they entitled to an opinion also ?

Some people on this thread seem almost indignant and even angry that TLG are pulling these pics; that suggests to me that they think they have a right to view them, which they don't.

[vexorian]

The point about bootleg brands seems to be another argument that doesn't hold water. For one thing, it remains very simple for the bootleggers to find the pictures if they really wanted to, given how easy it is for us consumers to do so. The bootleggers also tend to go into different markets than TLG (as their products would be banned in most developed countries), so they don't need to release their copies before the Lego sets come out.

The bootleggers would easily have connections with/own a store and that means they can get the whole manual without much effort.

Bootleggers can't do much without instructions though.

Clone brands generally have years old projects in the course and do not need to rush, waiting 3 months for official pics is as easy to copy ideas.

Confidential means that the company has legal rights and can sue anyone that has had anything to do with putting the images on the internet or hosting them.

Sorry, but I don't think that's true.

The other day plenty of sites published a lot of confidential documents from twitter's inner workings. Then we have that site which completely leaked the iphone 4.0. It does not seem an individual is liable to confidential bindings unless he himself signed the NDA.

Edited September 30, 2010 by vexorian

[Brainbox]

If we assume, for sake of argument, that all the reasons TLG have stated (clone brands, better business, etc.) are true, then of course they can pull the pictures. That also means that of course they have to pull the pictures from everywhere. It can't be one rule for one and one rule for another. As much as people on BS and Flickr don't have the right to put out the clearly confidential images, neither do sites like this one have the right to repost them.

Even if we assume the reasons aren't all true, or only some of them are, they were still taken from a retailers catalogue, meant for retailers only. Unfortunately, most of us aren't retailers and as such we're not supposed to see them.

Now don't get me wrong, I love seeing the leaks every year, and I love getting caught up in all the hype they generate. In fact, the simple fact that they leak every single year without fail would suggest that TLG doesn't tighten security each year, and that perhaps the issue of leaks isn't quite as big as it might seem.

So, unfortunately, yes, they were probably right to "stop" us seeing images that we weren't really supposed to see anyway. Again. Like happens every year.

[Nabii]

I think it’s our obsession with this cool little plastic building bricks that means that whenever LEGO talk about their competition it almost always swings to a discussion about clone brands (Mega, Oxford, BestLock whoever) and their ability, or not, to quickly copy LEGO’s themes rather than the reality of LEGO’s business.

They are in the TOY market, their completion is everything: Barbie, Hotwheels. Top-trumps, Pokemon, bicycles and Halo and Mario video games, anything that kids (or parents) can spend their entertainment budget on.

Leaks probably cannot be turned around in time by the clone brands, but they can alter the colour or content of some cheap plastic toys that already have moulds ready to go in China, Malaysia or Taiwan. Anyone notice how quickly ‘spy’ toys turned dark blue and silver in the wake of LEGO agents, or how many toy submarines are suddenly red (instead of the yellow predominant ever since the Beatles sang ‘Yellow Submarine’) and branded with ‘Atlantis’ on their cheap packaging in the toy shops today? These cheapo brands don’t get the LEGO retail catalogue, they search the internet for images of toys with western appeal, the easier and earlier they can get hold of these the quicker they can impact or ride on LEGO’s marketing.

No, we fans are not going to be fooled, we know LEGO is the product to buy, but how many times has a relative bought you something *like* the product you actually wanted? All granny has to do is remember you wanted a red submarine and something to do with Atlantis, and you end up with some cheapo rubbish that copied the colour scheme and theme they saw LEGO was going to use next year.

It impacts sales, no doubt about it, and it’s LEGO’s right to restrict where and who sees these images and if we claim to be fans we should support them in this. Hell, they can’t stop us sharing the images in private on email or whatever, but if they turn up on public image sharing sites they have every right to stamp on it, and honestly we should probably be helping them.