:D played for some hours now

still no probs on recivers or motors just smooth running

if prob comes i will post it here

11,1 is onley 0,6v more than 10,5

not a big isseu for lego :D

The risk of damaging the IR receivers decreases as the battery discharges (the voltage drops). By now, the battery is probably at less than 10.5v, even when there is no current.

Your 'best' chance of damaging the receivers would be to recharge the battery, then turn a loaded motor on then off very suddenly a few times (if the motors are constantly running, the voltage will easily drop to under 10.5v).

Could you measure the voltage of the battery when it is fully charged with no motors attached?

hello

no sorry im a noob about that i just put it together and it works great

i dont do things i wouldnt do when playing so no on and of sevral times

im not going to search the end of the pf

i realy belive that i would work with 12v also even the recivers (not going to try its fine like it is now)

im a noob about that

but not in handeling the machine

Edited November 23, 201014 yr by rien

Nice moves with the excavator!

thanks

ive done it for my job for 4 years so the controls works great !

thanks

ive done it for my job for 4 years so the controls works great !

That would explain why it appears to be opperated by a professional, because it is!

the brothers LIPO

Dear Rien et all,

Let me just give my two cents in this discussion.

In my opinion, there are two separate discussions:

1. The effect on an IC working on a higher voltage than stated in specifications.

2. The effect on a motor working on a higher voltage than stated in specifications.

Let me just give my two cents based on my knowledge and experience.

1. Putting an IC at a higher DC voltage can cause short and long term damage.

a. Short term: - Go too high and you can blow away the doping of the transistors, basically altering their functionality and ruining the IC.

b. Long term: - There might be electron migration in the transistors severely shorting the lifetime of the IC.

c. Depending on IC technology, transistor sizes, and the schematic you might be able to go a little higher than specified without noticeable effects, but you should have knowledge of the technology and schematics of the IC to be sure. Or, you could just do trial and error, of course. ;)

2. Putting an engine on a higher voltage: The main problem here is a. max current under stalling and b. heat transfer

a. stalling:

- When the engine stalls it basically acts as a kind of short circuit.

- The cables and wires in the engine are only designed to handle a certain amount of current.

- When you exceed this limit they will just melt away like a fuse plug in your home.

b. heat:

- Another problem can be heat transfer. When used at a higher voltage an electric motor heats up more over time.

- If the engine is not able to transfer this heat parts might melt, and damage the motor.

When operating equipment beyond the stated tolerances, you have to understand that not every PF motor and receiver has the same response.

The tolerances are stated to account for process and production variances and have a safety margin. But when operating beyond the tolerances the ability of the PF equipment to deal with that is basically random. So one PF-motor may be fine, while another simply melts down. Or one PF receiver will operate normally while another short circuits.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Teddy

many people saying it cant

well i have it a while now and noting happens

no heat no melting no smoke just happy playing

on and on

and recivers cost maybey 15/20 euro

nice to try things if it dies no prob store is close by :D

for the dutch under us im also on low lug (dutch)

there i can get into a discusion here its a bit difficult for me

btw im not discus i just show it can be don

nice buildings you got

Edited November 25, 201014 yr by rien

Again, the bottom line is that Rien's motors and Power Functions Infrared Receiver have not suffered any apparent ill effects. There must be a "factor of safety" built into the rated capacities of these elements, just like there are factors of safety in the design of buildings. There is a difference between what the PF elements are DESIGNED to do, and what they CAN do.

I like Rien's "thinking outside of the box", where he has used a non-Lego battery to improve the performance of the model. Consider that a BMW with a (more powerful, replacement) battery is still considered a BMW, so why should Lego be any different? TLG doesn't even make any 1.5V AA batteries for their standard Power Functions battery box, yet I don't hear anybody complaining that the standard 8043 Motorized Excavator set is not 100% Lego.

exactley thanx for explaining stuf and youre point

The box can have 6x1,5 cels so the box say's max 9 volts.

Someone told me here on the forum that in some specification would say max 10,5 volts .

The P.F system tels me:I work on 11,1 also.

Maybe it stops there but i think... (not gonna try)It will keep ok up to 12volts.

Dont need it tough its good as it is now.

Besides its onley 0.6 volts more than the 10,5!

I made the post here not to let evereyone change their setup.

Just im the brainiac to try for now so you dont have to lose a engine or reciver when going wrong.

If all went well than you might considder the use of my idea.

I think i hit a good way to upgrade the powerfunktions without open them up or demolich something.

But still in test phase. The wheelloader is almost done and will go on a li-po aswel.

many people saying it cant

well i have it a while now and noting happens

no heat no melting no smoke just happy playing

on and on

and recivers cost maybey 15/20 euro

nice to try things if it dies no prob store is close by :D

for the dutch under us im also on low lug (dutch)

there i can get into a discusion here its a bit difficult for me

btw im not discus i just show it can be don

nice buildings you got

Again, the bottom line is that Rien's motors and Power Functions Infrared Receiver have not suffered any apparent ill effects. There must be a "factor of safety" built into the rated capacities of these elements, just like there are factors of safety in the design of buildings. There is a difference between what the PF elements are DESIGNED to do, and what they CAN do.

I like Rien's "thinking outside of the box", where he has used a non-Lego battery to improve the performance of the model. Consider that a BMW with a (more powerful, replacement) battery is still considered a BMW, so why should Lego be any different? TLG doesn't even make any 1.5V AA batteries for their standard Power Functions battery box, yet I don't hear anybody complaining that the standard 8043 Motorized Excavator set is not 100% Lego.

Dear all,

please read my previous post carefully.

I am not saying it cannot be done, or it will not work.

But, I feel the obligation to warn for short term and long term damage to your PF equipment when operating beyond specified limits.

Especially, when you have no idea about the schematics, IC technology, etc.

People who are replicating Rien his MOD may experience the short term damage I am talking about, i.e. the PF equipment is damaged immediately.

This can be because their badge of PF is of lower quality. Remember that different manufactured batches have different quality levels, always.

Specifications have headroom to cover for manufacturing differences. When the tolerances of your batch are lower, you can potentially ruin your PF equipment immediately.

And, I am saying that even when it works, like in Rien his case, the average life expectancy of your Lego PF equipment can be substantially reduced.

It can be reduced from for example 20 years to 1 year. So it will appear to function alright at first.

The difference will only be noticeable over time, when motors and PF receivers simple start to break down.

I personally feel it is my responsibility to point this risk out.

Edit: If you are and feel okay with those risks, than you should just do it of course.

Kind regards,

Teddy

I personally feel it is my responsibility to point this risk out.

Thats a point.

I had to do that but im bad in writing english.

Thats why i put in a former post that i also post on another forum but in dutch.

You are dutch aswel so was hoping you put youre post there aswel so i can read it a bit clearer and respons better.

You can add me on msn aswel devilrider@live.be

greetz

Using Li-Po is a great idea! It's a much better battery than alkaline or NiMH (if charged responsibly).

Using voltages over the specified is how-ever not such a good idea, especially not through a IC.

Even if I can afford to buy several new IR-receivers if they brake I prefer to spend that money on new bricks, not replacing burnt ones.

I could see myself using such batteries with a resistor voltage limiter to bring down the voltage to 9V.

Then there is the question of purity. I have myself used a fair deal of non-LEGO elements in MOCs, especially to make them remote controlled pre-PF. As long as non-LEGO elements are used to get functionality that does not exist, and as long as they are not used in a way to get more room I see no problem with that (i.e. a smaller form factor than existing official battery-solutions).

But to each and his own! After all it's just a toy and a hobby...

Edited November 25, 201014 yr by Tobbe Arnesson

Can we just all agree that using 11.1V

1. works for Rien (at least for now), and will probably work similarly for anyone else that tries it.

2. is done at your own risk, as you're exceeding manufacturer's absolute maximum voltage ratings. i.e. if it blows up, it's your own fault, and you've had adequate warning in this forum.

And then have a cup of tea?

will probably work similarly for anyone else that tries it.

I can't agree on that, as Teddy said: rien might have a superior batch with higher tolerances, others might not be so fortunate.

Everything else I agree on, even if I don't drink tea.

I can't agree on that, as Teddy said: rien might have a superior batch with higher tolerances, others might not be so fortunate.

Everything else I agree on, even if I don't drink tea.

i just hope that if someone try it that it will work as good as mine and gets no damage!!

btw everyone have spectulations i have the test realy done!

Edited November 26, 201014 yr by rien

Rien, great job on the excavator. Both performance vice and on the handeling!!

I´m gonna try to replicate your controller one day for my 8043 set.

Thanks for sharing.

Rien, great job on the excavator. Both performance vice and on the handeling!!

I´m gonna try to replicate your controller one day for my 8043 set.

Thanks for sharing.

hi m8

you can make the conrtoller from jurgen krooshoop there i got the desing of also of the model itself

he made a great desing i build it myself its what you see is jurgens desing a must for a good working 8043

i onley addet the powersource and closed the desing a bit all technical is from jurgen!!!

here the amazing site J.T.C

hello

Still works fine with the lipo 11,1 volts also after recharging no probs.

My 8265 runs on a lipo also now and works great!

Its a 4x4 construktion by removing the lego engine and put a xl down there so the 4x4 stays

the steering is done by a L.A

both machines are realy good handeling with the extra power

I will ad vidio soon

greetz

Edited December 3, 201014 yr by rien

Very cool discussion!

To all electrical/electronic engineers out there: what is the normal safety factor of any design? Because in this case from 9V to 11.1V is 25% factor which in civil eng. is really not enough for Ultimate States Design... Anyway, I'm electronically retarded; enlight me!

for sale 4 lego powerfunktions batt box'es :P

and i clear all the toy's of my daughter with the 8265 hp lipo power from the bench!

Very cool discussion!

To all electrical/electronic engineers out there: what is the normal safety factor of any design? Because in this case from 9V to 11.1V is 25% factor which in civil eng. is really not enough for Ultimate States Design... Anyway, I'm electronically retarded; enlight me!

I completely second that: What is the limit of "PF"? Well, I guess better phrased: What are the limits of the PF LiPO, the PF receiver, the PF lights, and the PF motors? I tried to charge the LiPo battery with ++10V DC: No problem at all. Charging was a charm up-to 18 V. I frequently charge my LiPo at 15 V; solely for the reason that it charges faster and I happen to have such a power supply. This has been done for at least 50 times.

This does NOT mean that motors run at +10V DC, BUT honestly: 9 V -> 11.X V is next to nothing for a decently designed DC motor. Lifetime MAY go down, but do people have experienced that at all? The PF receiver is fine with running on power close to 5V; and it runs very well on 15 V. Motors are different, but is there any damage evidence?

Regards,

Thorsten

I think Rien's Lipo mod gives the much needed handling agility of a real excavator. Good job on that. I'd just finished building my own #8043, it's pretty much stock with no modifications, but I intend to keep it that way to preserve its design originality It came with the updated LAs though (38X0)

Here are few notes to consider for everyone else BEFORE upgrading to 11.1v Lipo:

Make sure ALL the gears spins freely by giving some play/tolerances to their adjascent object. I did this during my assembly, the M motors seem happy, no apparent stresses when lifting the boom, the motors stay cool too. This will reduce friction by a lot, gives added agility and reduce battery consumption hence longer running time!

I'm also into radio operated electric car models, Lipos are mandatory in these high performance vehicle. By seeing previous posts,we need to understand the proper usage of Lipo:

1.The PF circuitry does not come with a low voltage cutoff LVC. The LVC is needed to protect the Lipo from over discharged below 3.0v/cell. In a 11.1v Lipo, the minimum LVC is 9.0v. You need to measure the voltage when running it on the PF or you'll damage the cells or puff the cells ultimately. Have you seen an exploding Lipo?? Very scary..it will melt the lego bricks since it mimicks a flame thrower.

2. 11.1v is the nominal voltage of a Lipo (1 cell = 3.4 volt). But a fully charged Lipo fresh off the charger is 4.2v/cell. So a 3 cell Lipo like Rien's is around 12.6v fully charged.

3. You need to buy not just any 3s Lipo, but those that are rated for the maximum current draw of the PF motors. A lipo that's operating above it's discharge rate will get hot, damaged and ultimately explode. Lipo usually comes in C rating. C stands for continuous curret. The maximum current is the capacity of the Lipo times the 'C'. Eg. 11.1v 3s 1500mah 10C, means the Lipo is able to supply 1500mah x 10 = 15000 mah. Or 15A. So this battery will be safe to use on the PF which draws around 2-5A under load.

Hope these help!

hello

For point one in youre post i made a lipo safer inside the model.

It will turn red if voltage comes below 3,3 a cel.

Seen some go up in flames at youtube.

I use 2200 mah lipo.

Here it lays in the back of the model so contra weight.

The lights (pf)works aswel.

On fuly charged pack no smoke or turning hot ore anything no damage.

thnx for reply!

Edited December 11, 201014 yr by rien