LEGO parts made of Chinese plastic?

[Chilis]

Is it dooms day or something? I do get you wrong so head back to your darkage and let the rest of us enjoy what ever comes from TLC without too much whining from people like you. They are probably the biggest toymaker in the world and have to follow (enviroment)laws and make their products 100% safe for everyone.

[mechamike]

Thanks obsidianheart for the laugh of the day for me! Our friend ultimatebrickfan5 sure don't seem to be a brickfan or ultimate for that matter. I highly doubt that there is any toxic.. Just because something smell not so pleasant for some dont make it toxic, TLG have VERY high standards. Smelly or not.. is not an issue, but the somewhat poorer quality in the past with china produced minfigs have been more troublesome.. Can we have someone else that's not hired by Sluban/Megablocks to smear Lego confirm if the figs are actually China made?

Also the title of this thread seems pretty offensive and racist to me, I highly doubt that ultimatebrickfan5 has any clue of the personal hygiene of the Chinese workers.

Edited January 9, 2014 by mechamike

[MaineBrickFan]

I should not feed the troll, but I can't help but smile at the assertion that if TLG were public, the board would be replaced over this. Shareholders would be too busy counting their cash from CMFs for that to get much traction, methinks.

[MonkeyCrumb]

I guess Ultimate BrickFan5 went back to his day job at MegaBlocks.

[L@go]

Also the title of this thread seems pretty offensive and racist to me, I highly doubt that ultimatebrickfan5 has any clue of the personal hygiene of the Chinese workers.

While I, like everybody else replying, think the original poster's rant is a bit over the top, I don't think there's any reason to think that he has racial issues with the Chinese. The forum software cuts off long topic titles, so it's relatively safe to assume that his original title did have the word "plastic" in it.

[naf]

The CMFs were my bread and butter. Now that the product is made of rancid and potentially toxic chemical laden plastic, I think it's best to move on. I think it's a sign.

Don't get me wrong, I will still keep my core collection, but I won't buy anything new out of principle, sorry. I'm not going to reward a company that let's its quality slip to garbage to make a few million extra in profits. It's a private company also, no shareholders. A public company wouldn't do this, the shareholders would be outraged and probably replace the entire board. This is how companies go out of business my friends. Cheap, rancid, smelly, potentially toxic Chinese plastic CMFs and the rapid rise of 3d printing. LEGO is in trouble I'm afraid.

I think you have this backwards. If they had a board and shareholders, they would demand that Lego manufacture all of their products in China in order to maximize profits. It's usually the privately held companies that don't have to answer to shareholders that will keep producing a quality product instead of cheapening it to maximize profits. Shareholders don't care about quality, they care about profits. If they think they can make more money selling an inferior Chinese made product, they will.

[Leewan]

I understand that they produce some parts in China to reduce the costs. But why don't they use regular ABS in their Chinese factories ? And why don't they use the "cheaper plastic" in, their European/Mexican factories ? Is it that impossible to get Chinese ABS parts and/or European/Mexican crappy plastic parts ? Or is it already the case ? So basically, why is China always associated with crappy plastic ?

[Deathleech]

I understand that they produce some parts in China to reduce the costs. But why don't they use regular ABS in their Chinese factories ? And why don't they use the "cheaper plastic" in, their European/Mexican factories ? Is it that impossible to get Chinese ABS parts and/or European/Mexican crappy plastic parts ? Or is it already the case ? So basically, why is China always associated with crappy plastic ?

The factories in China aren't owned by Lego so they don't have the same quality control. The plastic in China also is from local sources so it's not the same standard as stuff in other Lego owned factories.

[Lyichir]

I understand that they produce some parts in China to reduce the costs. But why don't they use regular ABS in their Chinese factories ? And why don't they use the "cheaper plastic" in, their European/Mexican factories ? Is it that impossible to get Chinese ABS parts and/or European/Mexican crappy plastic parts ? Or is it already the case ? So basically, why is China always associated with crappy plastic ?

"

Regarding the allegedly cheaper plastic (which is also ABS, and I think has always been an overblown problem, often confused with dye inconsistencies and new molds), Chinese law requires that a certain amount of the materials for products produced in China be sourced from within the country. It has little if anything to do with reduced costs.

Yet the meme of "cheaper Chinese plastic" continues to circulate throughout the Lego fan community.

[LEGO Historian]

"

Regarding the allegedly cheaper plastic (which is also ABS, and I think has always been an overblown problem, often confused with dye inconsistencies and new molds), Chinese law requires that a certain amount of the materials for products produced in China be sourced from within the country. It has little if anything to do with reduced costs.

Yet the meme of "cheaper Chinese plastic" continues to circulate throughout the Lego fan community.

Wait... are you saying that because of laws that the Chinese manufacturers always follow stringent guidelines? That they never put lead into other toys imported to the USA? That they've never tainted baby food for their own consumption, that they've never tained Heparin... a blood thinner? That all Chinese products are like German products... made to high quality??

[Hey Joe]

A Lego exec said in an interview that initially they were hoping to bring 'real' ABS into China to make the CMFs, but they weren't allowed to, so they had to settle for local stuff.

Interestingly; Lego says that the bricks made in their new Chinese factory will be the same quality as other plants, so I guess they've worked out how to get the good ABS in China?

Joe

[obsidianheart]

Or they're going to drop the quality of the other factories to meet with China's lowered bar and all that doom and gloom was right on target and our fun is spoiled forever.

(I am totally kidding. I do not think that this is the case.)

[Lyichir]

Wait... are you saying that because of laws that the Chinese manufacturers always follow stringent guidelines? That they never put lead into other toys imported to the USA? That they've never tainted baby food for their own consumption, that they've never tained Heparin... a blood thinner? That all Chinese products are like German products... made to high quality??

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that LEGO has to comply with Chinese law if they want to do business there. And that Lego doesn't just outsource Chinese production to the most unscrupulous manufacturers available; they actually do care about the quality of the products they sell, as evidenced by the lack of anything like the examples of the kind of abuses you're using as evidence occurring with Lego. The most we've seen is perhaps slightly more color inconsistency in Chinese-produced parts (especially when they were just starting out production in the country), which isn't any sort of high crime.

But conversely, are you suggesting that China is universally a nation of cutting corners? That Chinese workers can't take pride in their work despite their comparably lower standard of living? That Lego has effectively zero control over the companies they contract to produce their products? I'm not saying that Chinese production has been without its faults (like most new production facilities Lego has used, it got off to a shaky start, and even now it's not quite perfect), but like most issues with Lego it gets way overblown by the fan community, to the point where the facts give way to paranoia and ignorance.

[naf]

No, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that LEGO has to comply with Chinese law if they want to do business there. And that Lego doesn't just outsource Chinese production to the most unscrupulous manufacturers available; they actually do care about the quality of the products they sell, as evidenced by the lack of anything like the examples of the kind of abuses you're using as evidence occurring with Lego. The most we've seen is perhaps slightly more color inconsistency in Chinese-produced parts (especially when they were just starting out production in the country), which isn't any sort of high crime.

But conversely, are you suggesting that China is universally a nation of cutting corners? That Chinese workers can't take pride in their work despite their comparably lower standard of living? That Lego has effectively zero control over the companies they contract to produce their products? I'm not saying that Chinese production has been without its faults (like most new production facilities Lego has used, it got off to a shaky start, and even now it's not quite perfect), but like most issues with Lego it gets way overblown by the fan community, to the point where the facts give way to paranoia and ignorance.

I don't think everything China produces is cheap and crappy, but everything the US (at least) imports from China seems to be cheap and crappy. Why else would a company source parts in China unless it was saving them money? Saving money usually includes cutting corners, using cheaper materials, and as is the case in many Chinese factories, using borderline slave labor to produce parts. Quality issues aside, I think it's disappointing that Lego has chosen to source some parts to China just due to the human rights abuses alone.

[kibosh]

I picked up some of the LEGO Movie CMFs last night, and have to say, they contents of the bag DID indeed smell bad. But I don't think it was the plastic. I think it was the printed checklist. Kind of reminded me of the smell of baseball cards back when I collected them. After having everything sit out for a while, the LEGO has no odor, but the paper product still smells.

[Lyichir]

I don't think everything China produces is cheap and crappy, but everything the US (at least) imports from China seems to be cheap and crappy. Why else would a company source parts in China unless it was saving them money? Saving money usually includes cutting corners, using cheaper materials, and as is the case in many Chinese factories, using borderline slave labor to produce parts. Quality issues aside, I think it's disappointing that Lego has chosen to source some parts to China just due to the human rights abuses alone.

Oh, there are problems with Chinese labor to be sure. But my point is that they don't necessarily manifest in the actual quality of Lego's products. Not all things imported from China are cheap and crappy; in fact, the majority of high-end consumer electronics are produced there. From what I can tell, Lego took up Chinese production primarily because of the cheaper labor, but cheaper labor is the norm in China, for better or for worse. That doesn't mean Lego is cutting corners on their actual products, and in fact a lot of what we've seen produced in the Chinese facilities are things that are, for the most part, HIGHER quality: things like parts with more complex printing than usual, that are most likely produced there specifically because they require more manual labor and less automation to produce.

The stigma against Chinese production isn't new, and part of why I'm skeptical of it is because it was used as a scapegoat even before Lego started producing things in China: the Bionicle fandom, for one, often blamed Chinese production for quality issues long before any parts from Bionicle sets were produced there. When parts actually started being produced there, fans looked at them with a critical eye from the very beginning, and any faults (such as the discoloration in early CMF parts) were blamed on Chinese production: a classic example of confirmation bias, which ignored any other possible explanations besides cost-cutting. And that fear of Chinese products coupled with ignorance led to a number of myths: that Chinese parts didn't use "real" ABS (the start of the "cheap Chinese plastic" meme that relied on the false assumption that ABS was some sort of secret formula that only Lego could use), or that things like the lack of neck printing on Chinese-produced figs were an example of the lower quality (and not an example of HIGHER-quality printing machines being used in the newer Chinese facilities). Even when the quality issues appeared less and less, AFOLs continued to behave as if nothing short of pulling out of China completely could solve them.

So I can understand objecting to Chinese production on moral grounds (even though the lack of any reports of abuses from the production facilities that produce Lego suggest that perhaps they are more scrupulous and ethical than widely-panned companies like Foxconn). But most AFOLs object to them not because of that, but because of an irrational fear toward Chinese-produced parts. And that's why I can't take a lot of the hysteria over Chinese production seriously.

[ShaydDeGrai]

(snip...)

But conversely, are you suggesting that China is universally a nation of cutting corners? That Chinese workers can't take pride in their work despite their comparably lower standard of living? That Lego has effectively zero control over the companies they contract to produce their products? I'm not saying that Chinese production has been without its faults (like most new production facilities Lego has used, it got off to a shaky start, and even now it's not quite perfect), but like most issues with Lego it gets way overblown by the fan community, to the point where the facts give way to paranoia and ignorance.

I don't think it's a question "pride" or "control" over a single factory or subcontractor. China, as an industrial production environment is an environmental nightmare and cross-contamination is a serious problem that, shy of white rooms, air scrubbers and complete control over one's supply lines is very difficult to overcome.

Certainly there is an aspect of community reaction driven by paranoia, ignorance and/or prejudice but if we confine ourselves to just the facts, it's still not particularly comforting:

1) According to the Chinese Ministry of Health the leading cause of death in China is cancer and that in industrial areas the average life expectancy has gone down by 5.5 years in the past decade.

2) On average, a quarter of a million people die due to acute asthma related respiratory failure on during "high smog alert" days annually

3) Heavy metal poisoning (lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc.) is the leading cause of child death in China.

4) By EPA (US) and European Standards half a billion Chinese do not have "safe" drinking water; by Chinese standards that number goes down to 100 million but that probably says more about the "standards" than the actual water quality at that point.

5) By EPA and European Standards less than 1% of the urban population breathes "safe" air on a regular basis.

Economically, according to Jun Ma, director of the Institute for Public and Environmental Affairs (IPE), in the rush to become more industrialized, many local governments in China have defied national policies and 'cut corners'. Ma described government oversight of the plastics, chemical, electronics industries as "weak" and "failed" and characterized overall environmental management efforts saying "mere formalities" to mislead people into not looking any deeper.

From 2006 to 2010 China dealt with 912 industrial accidents with serious environmental impacts such as the Apple factory's noted n-hexane leak. In 2011, alone, they had 542 incidents. January of 2012 started with a massive 40 ton cadmium spill that tainted the water supply for tens of millions of people and (to date) has resulted in 3.7 million cases of heavy metal poison - with symptoms ranging from blue urine and migraines to death. Nationally, this has prompted policy changes on paper, but according to watchdog groups, both internal and international, enforcement of the policies is still woefully lacking and (remarkably - for a country often vilified for human rights abuses) the consequences for violators has been historically mild for the scale of the damage caused.

It is further estimated that fewer than 1 in 5 chemical spills are actually reported either through corporate or government channels - most are "handled" locally to avoid fines or public embarrassment. Going back to the IPE and world bank findings, the "lack of transparency" and "at best nominal" enforcement of "lax regulations" calls into question the "integrity of products and exports".

Like rice, beef and fish where ground water contamination has caused them to test positive for lead, cadmium, arsenic and cesium, many products hailing from China in recent years have tested positive for environmental contaminants. This is not to say the Chinese don't take pride in their work or that there's some evil communist plot afoot to poison capitalists by deliberately putting cadmium in the plastics our decadent western PEZ Dispensers are made from. It just means these exports are products of their environment and that environment is one where heavy metals, formaldehyde, sulfur dioxide, and all manner of hydrocarbons are (unfortunately) a part of daily life.

I'd like to think that, in a poorly regulated part of the world where too many people get away with cutting corners, a generally responsible company like TLG would be pulling up the standards rather than exploiting the loopholes, but there's also only so much one company can do when pollution up and down the industrial pipeline is so rampant in that part of the world.

[Lyichir]

I don't think it's a question "pride" or "control" over a single factory or subcontractor. China, as an industrial production environment is an environmental nightmare and cross-contamination is a serious problem that, shy of white rooms, air scrubbers and complete control over one's supply lines is very difficult to overcome.

Certainly there is an aspect of community reaction driven by paranoia, ignorance and/or prejudice but if we confine ourselves to just the facts, it's still not particularly comforting:

1) According to the Chinese Ministry of Health the leading cause of death in China is cancer and that in industrial areas the average life expectancy has gone down by 5.5 years in the past decade.

2) On average, a quarter of a million people die due to acute asthma related respiratory failure on during "high smog alert" days annually

3) Heavy metal poisoning (lead, arsenic, cadmium, etc.) is the leading cause of child death in China.

4) By EPA (US) and European Standards half a billion Chinese do not have "safe" drinking water; by Chinese standards that number goes down to 100 million but that probably says more about the "standards" than the actual water quality at that point.

5) By EPA and European Standards less than 1% of the urban population breathes "safe" air on a regular basis.

Economically, according to Jun Ma, director of the Institute for Public and Environmental Affairs (IPE), in the rush to become more industrialized, many local governments in China have defied national policies and 'cut corners'. Ma described government oversight of the plastics, chemical, electronics industries as "weak" and "failed" and characterized overall environmental management efforts saying "mere formalities" to mislead people into not looking any deeper.

From 2006 to 2010 China dealt with 912 industrial accidents with serious environmental impacts such as the Apple factory's noted n-hexane leak. In 2011, alone, they had 542 incidents. January of 2012 started with a massive 40 ton cadmium spill that tainted the water supply for tens of millions of people and (to date) has resulted in 3.7 million cases of heavy metal poison - with symptoms ranging from blue urine and migraines to death. Nationally, this has prompted policy changes on paper, but according to watchdog groups, both internal and international, enforcement of the policies is still woefully lacking and (remarkably - for a country often vilified for human rights abuses) the consequences for violators has been historically mild for the scale of the damage caused.

It is further estimated that fewer than 1 in 5 chemical spills are actually reported either through corporate or government channels - most are "handled" locally to avoid fines or public embarrassment. Going back to the IPE and world bank findings, the "lack of transparency" and "at best nominal" enforcement of "lax regulations" calls into question the "integrity of products and exports".

Like rice, beef and fish where ground water contamination has caused them to test positive for lead, cadmium, arsenic and cesium, many products hailing from China in recent years have tested positive for environmental contaminants. This is not to say the Chinese don't take pride in their work or that there's some evil communist plot afoot to poison capitalists by deliberately putting cadmium in the plastics our decadent western PEZ Dispensers are made from. It just means these exports are products of their environment and that environment is one where heavy metals, formaldehyde, sulfur dioxide, and all manner of hydrocarbons are (unfortunately) a part of daily life.

I'd like to think that, in a poorly regulated part of the world where too many people get away with cutting corners, a generally responsible company like TLG would be pulling up the standards rather than exploiting the loopholes, but there's also only so much one company can do when pollution up and down the industrial pipeline is so rampant in that part of the world.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with having moral objections to Lego doing business in China. But the majority of the opposition to Chinese manufacture I see in the Lego fan community is far less civic-minded. The calling out of every "Chinese" part in a set is borne more out of fear that those parts are inferior to the others than to any concern for the standard of living of the workers who oversaw their assembly. AFOLs, it seems, are more concerned with the value of their end product than with what it took to get there (and indeed, I think they'd be outraged if Lego actually did pull out of China and it resulted in raised prices to account for a typical western cost of labor).

As it is, issues like unfair wages and pollution may exist, but the oft-raised specter of tainted or inferior products hasn't manifested in Lego products. So if AFOLs want to see more transparency and oversight for the Chinese production facilities, I would be all for that. But if they just want Lego to pull out of China because they're afraid they're getting an inferior product, when the evidence shows otherwise, I can't sympathize. I, too, like to imagine that Lego's oversight and care for quality is probably a positive thing for their Chinese manufacturers, and I don't think they should be deprived of such a responsibly-minded client for petty or ignorant reasons.

[Leewan]

Thank you very much for this information, guys. So, to summarize, beside the (heavy ?) risk of plastic being poisoned by leaks, as explained by ShaydDeGrai, the only flaw of China-made Lego parts is a discoloration problem (which, of course, doesn't concern every part made in China), right ?

And what do Chinese AFOLs think of this fuss ?

[Cult_Of_Skaro]

For the texture, there are some parts which seem different

For example that one from the 80s:

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=4873

I do not know from which set I have it,

According to bricklink the only red-like known color is red, but the one I have is obviously another color and another kind of plastic. There are several listed as "rust" instead of "red" in shops.

In the same way, there is also that part which has a strange feeling (same kind of color & texture than the bar mentioned above) compared to other Lego parts :

http://www.bricklink.com/catalogItem.asp?P=2651

also "rust" rather than "red".

And at that time these were not made in China.

I know this is an old post, but I have the exact same issue with red 4873s. Of my two, one is bright red, one is rusty.

[Dr Leg O Brick]

Is there any solid, 100% no doubt proof that Chinese Mini figs or parts contain contaminates that are toxic?

Edited January 10, 2014 by Dr Leg O Brick

[BrickG]

Hmmm close enough I say. Leagues and bounds better than the competitors. I didn't really notice until people mentioned it.

[Legogal]

I don't think everything China produces is cheap and crappy, but everything the US (at least) imports from China seems to be cheap and crappy. Why else would a company source parts in China unless it was saving them money? Saving money usually includes cutting corners, using cheaper materials, and as is the case in many Chinese factories, using borderline slave labor to produce parts. Quality issues aside, I think it's disappointing that Lego has chosen to source some parts to China just due to the human rights abuses alone.

As many children all over the world will be chewing on LEGO parts from now to eternity, it could enlighten everyone if TLG used an independent lab to run toxicity testing on parts produced everywhere and provided public results. This should be required of all toy companies. My son and his Chinese wife are concerned enough about the extraordinary levels of pollution in China this winter that they are minimizing their time there for the benefit of the health of themselves and their child on the way. The issue is how to identify the products that are too toxic to be around humans and especially children.

[AndyC]

Is there any solid, 100% no doubt proof that Chinese Mini figs or parts contain contaminates that are toxic?

If there were, there'd be a public recall. Which you'll notice there hasn't been.

Over the years I've seen complaints about "Chinese plastic" on sets which contained no parts at all from China and also seen sets that do contain parts from China go by without a mention of any quality issues, simply because they didn't have speciality minifigs in and thus determining which pieces to complain about would presumably be a lot harder.

If there is a quality issue with a part, it's a Quality Control issue. Where the part was made is basically irrelevant.

[naf]

I'd like to think that, in a poorly regulated part of the world where too many people get away with cutting corners, a generally responsible company like TLG would be pulling up the standards rather than exploiting the loopholes, but there's also only so much one company can do when pollution up and down the industrial pipeline is so rampant in that part of the world.

The reason my parents started buying me Lego in the first place is because they were one of the few toys not made in China, and they had an outstanding quality reputation (along with the other great apsects of Lego like creativity, etc). When I got out of my dark age last year and started buying some new Lego, my parents were like "Hey, are they still making those in Denmark?" I actually hadn't thought to look, and this is when I saw the dreaded "contains parts made in China" on the box. We were all pretty disappointed in that.

Lego can pull up the standards by not supporting those business practices and refusing to manufacture there. There have been many cases, some very promininent in the news, about toys coming out of China laden with heavy metals, formeldyhde, etc. As was stated above, this is the product of the environment. I don't think these things are intentionally added to the products, but there are so few enforced regulations that they probably don't know what's in the plastic once it gets shipped out the door.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with having moral objections to Lego doing business in China. But the majority of the opposition to Chinese manufacture I see in the Lego fan community is far less civic-minded. The calling out of every "Chinese" part in a set is borne more out of fear that those parts are inferior to the others than to any concern for the standard of living of the workers who oversaw their assembly. AFOLs, it seems, are more concerned with the value of their end product than with what it took to get there (and indeed, I think they'd be outraged if Lego actually did pull out of China and it resulted in raised prices to account for a typical western cost of labor).

I think most AFOLs would not care if they paid a few extra dollars per set if they discontinued production in Chinese factories.

My wife and I recently bought some small rubber Christmas-themed pencil toppers to put in their stockings. When we took them out of the package, they smelled so bad that we both got headaches and ended up throwing them all away. They were made in China. That's all the proof I need to know that anything coming from a factory there might not be safe.