LEGO parts made of Chinese plastic?

[Hrafnblod]

Totally agree with you there. I went through my store bought Mini-figures and found out which was which. Honestly I feel duped into buying a lesser quality product than what the brand would have me believe. There isn't anything as a consumer we can do about CMF figures as they are all Made in China. However the mixing of mini-figure parts is another matter. I do find the same issues with the hands and hip joints. The legs to look at them lack the same sheen and there is a noticeable difference. They just don't feel as solid. In the future I will be scrutinising parts before I purchase any more mini-figures so as to not end up paying for a lesser quality part.

In fairness, they do at least put on the box whether or not any pieces are made in china. It came as a surprise when I first discovered it, but it you really object you can, at least, not buy the sets with Chinese parts. I really wouldn't mind it though, if they'd just even out the quality.

[naf]

The main issue is that there seems to be a wide range in quality for the chinese-made minifigs. I've been collecting CMF's for a while now, and some are good, others have very loose arms or legs, some have very stiff hands that won't rotate hardly at all, while others rotate easily. Also, the yellow is just not the same shade as a regular minifig. If you put two of them together, the difference is obvious. The plastic also has a different feel to it, hard to describe but again, if you put a CMF figure beside a regular minifig, the differences are apparent. This is why it's a bit disconcerting that Lego makes the statement that the quality of parts coming out of the Chinese factory is the same, because there's physical evidence that it's not.

[Wodanis]

In fairness, they do at least put on the box whether or not any pieces are made in china. It came as a surprise when I first discovered it, but it you really object you can, at least, not buy the sets with Chinese parts. I really wouldn't mind it though, if they'd just even out the quality.

If the quality was improved upon then I would be ok with it. I don't want to wait till 2017 for their new factory to come online to find out. I'm thinking they will be putting made in china on the boxes at any rate, even if it may not have parts made from there. As part of the organisation.

The main issue is that there seems to be a wide range in quality for the chinese-made minifigs. I've been collecting CMF's for a while now, and some are good, others have very loose arms or legs, some have very stiff hands that won't rotate hardly at all, while others rotate easily. Also, the yellow is just not the same shade as a regular minifig. If you put two of them together, the difference is obvious. The plastic also has a different feel to it, hard to describe but again, if you put a CMF figure beside a regular minifig, the differences are apparent. This is why it's a bit disconcerting that Lego makes the statement that the quality of parts coming out of the Chinese factory is the same, because there's physical evidence that it's not.

I know right? I've been collecting the CMFs since series 3 and you are right , you can see the difference. That is what bugs me the most is the off shade of yellow. I bought Gail the construction worker last week from the Lego movie figs and she suffers from that, a hat that doesn't fit snug on her head and loose legs. Exactly! Why does TLG keeps insisting on their quality from the area?

[Laservampire]

Yup, it's the yellow that bugs me the most too. Heads are okay but the hands usually look awful compared to regular minifigs.

Even unrelated to China-produced stuff, the variation in the yellow bricks coming from Denmark alone usually make me avoid predominantly yellow sets!

[mkeller234]

After reading this I decided to have a second look at the CMF figures compared to a standard minifig. You are all correct, the difference is obvious when you have both side by side. I easily noticed the loose feel in the joints, the low sheen finish, hand coloring and poor hand grip. The CMF line also has a few soft pieces, like the seagull. I have not encountered that before with Lego (talking old sets here).

I concluded this: Yes, they are lower quality and even a bit frustration to pose. However, once they are posed I doubt that I will handle the CMF figs very often. Since I don't look at them as play objects, I am ok with the lowered quality. They are still undeniably fun to look at. As someone that grew up with mostly classic smile faces, I really enjoy the individualism and humor in these CMF lines. Of course, YMMV!

Edited January 15, 2014 by mkeller234

[Hrafnblod]

After reading this I decided to have a second look at the CMF figures compared to a standard minifig. You are all correct, the difference is obvious when you have both side by side. I easily noticed the loose feel in the joints, the low sheen finish, hand coloring and poor hand grip. The CMF line also has a few soft pieces, like the seagull. I have not encountered that before with Lego (talking old sets here).

I concluded this: Yes, they are lower quality and even a bit frustration to pose. However, once they are posed I doubt that I will handle the CMF figs very often. Since I don't look at them as play objects, I am ok with the lowered quality. They are still undeniably fun to look at. As someone that grew up with mostly classic smile faces, I really enjoy the individualism and humor in these CMF lines. Of course, YMMV!

Soft pieces have been used in standard sets too, for a little while now. Both in the flexible accessories like the older Atlantis trident and the sort of hard-rubber headpieces like some of Atlantis' headpieces, and the mosquito alien heads in Galaxy Quest or whatever the current space line is. Dunno if those parts are made in China or not, though I don't mind it for specialty pieces (and on some it actually works better than standard ABS).

[mkeller234]

Hah, well my last experiences were in the early to mid 90s.... So it's been a while! A lot has changed for sure. I used to covet any snot tiles that I got, and that usually wasn't very many. It seems like there are tons of those pieces now.

[Lyichir]

Soft pieces have been used in standard sets too, for a little while now. Both in the flexible accessories like the older Atlantis trident and the sort of hard-rubber headpieces like some of Atlantis' headpieces, and the mosquito alien heads in Galaxy Quest or whatever the current space line is. Dunno if those parts are made in China or not, though I don't mind it for specialty pieces (and on some it actually works better than standard ABS).

In general, a part's softness has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with what qualities the part is supposed to have. In general, soft pieces allow for sharper detail since edges won't snap off either in production or in a kid's hands. Softer parts are often used for safety, as well: for example, the old spear piece was remolded in a rubbery plastic for the Hero Factory theme, assumedly because kids are more likely to jam large figures into one another violently, which could be dangerous with the rigid spear piece. I've never had any experience with a part that is supposed to be hard being softer than usual, or vice versa, no matter which factory the part came from.

That's another thing I dislike about the Chinese plastic hysteria: while it may have started with legitimate color quality issues and the like, the stigma against Chinese parts leads intentional design decisions to be branded as quality defects. The meme of low quality being so widespread leads people to see problems even when they aren't there.

[Wodanis]

That's another thing I dislike about the Chinese plastic hysteria: while it may have started with legitimate color quality issues and the like, the stigma against Chinese parts leads intentional design decisions to be branded as quality defects. The meme of low quality being so widespread leads people to see problems even when they aren't there.

It isn't a hysteria, nor is it a slight against China. There are legitimate concerns with products being produced by a lesser grade of ABS from China. If it was produced elsewhere Lego would be able to use their grade of ABS. What intentional design decisions are you referring to? I would hardly doubt people seeing flaws which aren't there. It is quite obvious.

[Lyichir]

It isn't a hysteria, nor is it a slight against China. There are legitimate concerns with products being produced by a lesser grade of ABS from China. If it was produced elsewhere Lego would be able to use their grade of ABS. What intentional design decisions are you referring to? I would hardly doubt people seeing flaws which aren't there. It is quite obvious.

Just because there are legitimate concerns does not mean there is no hysteria around it. I have seen more misconceptions and untruths spread regarding Chinese manufacture than I can count. Most notably, I see the perpetuation of the common misconception that "ABS" is some magical formula that only Lego has access to, and lesser parts lack. In reality, not only is ABS only a type of plastic formulation that is used by many, many companies, but there have always been Lego elements that use different types of plastic—most notably Polycarbonate, which has been used for transparent elements for decades, but also softer or rubbery plastic formulations used for certain minifig tools or flexible elements.

I'm glad to see you acknowledge that even the slightly different plastic used in the Chinese plants is, for the most part, ABS, but regarding "grade" of ABS, I didn't know that there even was such a scale, or that the Chinese ABS would be a different grade if there is. Certainly the ABS in China is sourced differently, but I've seen no indication that it's "lesser" in any measurable metric. It doesn't help that it's hard to tell how many of the known quality issues with Chinese parts is even related to the differently-sourced plastic: textural quality is influenced by molds (with the Chinese facility using different molds for the common minifigure body parts, among others), and color consistency is influenced by the dyeing process.

My point about intentional design decisions was regarding things like I discussed in the previous post: concerns about softer plastic (which is used deliberately, since many part designs would not work as well if at all in hard ABS as is used for standard bricks), or differences in mold designs (such as the newer torso and leg molds for the CMFs, which are just newer versions that will probably work their way into the other factories sooner or later). Once people get it into their heads that there are quality issues, they start seeing even regular aspects of part design as defects.

[naf]

Aside from a chemist doing a test in a lab, I don't think we'll ever know if the ABS being used for Chinese parts is exactly the same as parts made in Europe. So, let's assume it's the exact same plastic. There are still noticeable quality issues:

1) Yellow (especially for hands) is a different shade than non-Chinese minifigs.

2) Mold lines are more apparent in Chinese made minifigs (for example, compare the hands of a CMF to a regular minifig, the CMF has visible mold lines while the regular figures don't).

3) Chinese minifigs have a different sheen on them than regular system minifigs. Not that one is better than the other, but I would like to see my figures be consistent.

4) Problems noted with loose legs, arms, and hands.

5) Some issues with printing. The prints for the Kingdoms battle packs were of a different shade of color than figures found in regular system sets.

So, no one is being biased specifically because these are Chinese parts and everything that comes out of China is bad. However, China does have a track record of poor quality control. Lego is telling us that any Lego product coming out of China is up to their quality standards and should be indistinguishable from parts made in other parts of the world. However, it's clearly not the case. That's all everyone is saying, no hysteria, just the facts.

[kibosh]

That's another thing I dislike about the Chinese plastic hysteria: while it may have started with legitimate color quality issues and the like, the stigma against Chinese parts leads intentional design decisions to be branded as quality defects. The meme of low quality being so widespread leads people to see problems even when they aren't there.

There is a "Chinese plastic hysteria" for a reason. And note, these complaints are coming from around the world. What is the reason the parts are being produced in China? Cost. From this list, you can have two things. The third will suffer:

1) Low cost

2) High quality

3) On schedule

If cost is going down, and production is on schedule (I've not heard of any shortages), it is safe to assume quality is suffering.

The old adage will always hold true. You get what you pay for.

Edited January 17, 2014 by kibosh

[Lyichir]

Aside from a chemist doing a test in a lab, I don't think we'll ever know if the ABS being used for Chinese parts is exactly the same as parts made in Europe. So, let's assume it's the exact same plastic. There are still noticeable quality issues:

1) Yellow (especially for hands) is a different shade than non-Chinese minifigs.

2) Mold lines are more apparent in Chinese made minifigs (for example, compare the hands of a CMF to a regular minifig, the CMF has visible mold lines while the regular figures don't).

3) Chinese minifigs have a different sheen on them than regular system minifigs. Not that one is better than the other, but I would like to see my figures be consistent.

4) Problems noted with loose legs, arms, and hands.

5) Some issues with printing. The prints for the Kingdoms battle packs were of a different shade of color than figures found in regular system sets.

So, no one is being biased specifically because these are Chinese parts and everything that comes out of China is bad. However, China does have a track record of poor quality control. Lego is telling us that any Lego product coming out of China is up to their quality standards and should be indistinguishable from parts made in other parts of the world. However, it's clearly not the case. That's all everyone is saying, no hysteria, just the facts.

Remember what I've said in my post about the difficulty of judging the difference in the plastic? Issues number Issues number 1 and 3 could be because of dye issues. Issue 5 certainly is. Issues 2, 3 and 4 could be because of the different molds, with 4 even potentially being deliberate (the determining factor there being whether the arms and legs are consistently looser or whether they vary: variation would be indicative of a quality issue).

I'm not disputing that quality issues (including the ones you mentioned) exist. That doesn't mean the hysteria doesn't exist. It does. I've seen it. In the absence of reliable information misconceptions are formed, and the meme of low quality parts leads people to perceive ordinary traits of parts as defects. At the same time, it leads people to ignore the fact that quality variations are not a new thing: if a box says any parts in it are sourced from China, people tend to assume that any part with a quality issue "must have come from there". I would LOVE for Lego to be more transparent about this so that it would be easier to separate the fact from the hype. But I doubt that's going to happen any time soon. Nor is Chinese manufacture simply going to go away: Consumers are used to low prices, and those are going to depend on producing in low-priced economies (which includes China as well as Mexico and eastern Europe).

There's no reason why Chinese manufacture can't get better in the future. The Chinese government does little in the way of regulation, but Lego is in the position as the factory's client to incentivize quality. And I believe they're doing so. The quality issues seen in the early days of Chinese manufacture are getting less and less widespread. There were numerous discolorations in my full collection of Series 1 minifigures, but I've seen fewer and fewer in each progressive set. People can feel free to boycott sets with Chinese parts, but by doing so they'll be missing out on some great sets and figs, all because of a factor that isn't going away but is becoming less and less of a problem as time goes on.

[GregoryBrick]

There is a "Chinese plastic hysteria" for a reason. And note, these complaints are coming from around the world. What is the reason the parts are being produced in China? Cost. From this list, you can have two things. The third will suffer:

1) Low cost

2) High quality

3) On schedule

If cost is going down, and production is on schedule (I've not heard of any shortages), it is safe to assume quality is suffering.

Costs never go down without quality or timing suffering? This seems to go against an awful lot of economic history.

[Hrafnblod]

Costs never go down without quality or timing suffering? This seems to go against an awful lot of economic history.

Yeah, generally speaking the entire industrial revolution has a bone to pick with that line of reasoning, since it was characterized by high (increasingly consistent) quality of production, lower costs and faster rate of production.

[LEGO Historian]

I'm not disputing that quality issues (including the ones you mentioned) exist. That doesn't mean the hysteria doesn't exist. It does. I've seen it. In the absence of reliable information misconceptions are formed... <snip>

OK, I'll bite...

Methinks you doth protest too much about people here as being hysterical. I see it as just the opposite... you are being too complacent...

If you are wanting for reliable information about why so many here fear Chinese products... look no farther...

2007 (this year is a doozie... it's a sure bet that this was the tip of the iceberg as far as Chinese quality is concerned...

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

2008-2014... month by month reliable information...

http://www.safekids....CFexFMgodJ0sAgw

If that doesn't satisfy you, try these (2007 thru 2013)....

http://en.wikipedia...._export_recalls

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

http://www.cnn.com/2...S/08/14/recall/

http://www.more4kids...r-more-recalls/

https://www.fas.org/...row/RS22713.pdf

http://www.info.com/...CFclaMgod9UcAuQ

http://www.huffingto...-_n_745316.html

http://economyincris...children-danger

http://www.bloomberg...oy-recalls.html

http://topics.nytime...t_safety/china/

http://money.usnews....-dangerous-toys

Is all of this hysteria?

I think that people have a very legitimate reason to fear Chinese products... lack of oversight... and a general feeling that some midlevel Chinese managers view profits (or bribes) as a legitimate way of doing business... to the detriment to the children of overseas buyers....

Granted Americans have little in the way to determine what is safe and what is not... and that distrust also carries to the slackers in our own government that let this slip by for much too long. I cannot speak for how things are done in the EU or Britain/Australia, but they too seem to have a lot of issues with Chinese produced goods.

But when it comes to toys and children (and yes even adults)... people would rather err on the side of caution... because unless someone here has the deep pockets to send these LEGO minifigs to a lab to be tested... we really don't know??

Edited January 18, 2014 by LEGO Historian

[Lyichir]

OK, I'll bite...

Methinks you doth protest too much about people here as being hysterical. I see it as just the opposite... you are being too complacent...

If you are wanting for reliable information about why so many here fear Chinese products... look no farther...

2007 (this year is a doozie... it's a sure bet that this was the tip of the iceberg as far as Chinese quality is concerned...

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

2008-2014... month by month reliable information...

http://www.safekids....CFexFMgodJ0sAgw

If that doesn't satisfy you, try these (2007 thru 2013)....

http://en.wikipedia...._export_recalls

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all

http://www.cnn.com/2...S/08/14/recall/

http://www.more4kids...r-more-recalls/

https://www.fas.org/...row/RS22713.pdf

http://www.info.com/...CFclaMgod9UcAuQ

http://www.huffingto...-_n_745316.html

http://economyincris...children-danger

http://www.bloomberg...oy-recalls.html

http://topics.nytime...t_safety/china/

http://money.usnews....-dangerous-toys

Is all of this hysteria?

I think that people have a very legitimate reason to fear Chinese products... lack of oversight... and a general feeling that some midlevel Chinese managers view profits (or bribes) as a legitimate way of doing business... to the detriment to the children of overseas buyers....

Granted Americans have little in the way to determine what is safe and what is not... and that distrust also carries to the slackers in our own government that let this slip by for much too long. I cannot speak for how things are done in the EU or Britain/Australia, but they too seem to have a lot of issues with Chinese produced goods.

But when it comes to toys and children (and yes even adults)... people would rather err on the side of caution... because unless someone here has the deep pockets to send these LEGO minifigs to a lab to be tested... we really don't know??

Yeah, but NONE of those have to do with Lego. Product recalls happen with goods produced in other countries, too, but Lego's rarely done ANY recalls (the only ones I can remember weren't even due to safety, but simply due to defective parts that could destroy themselves through normal use). Yeah, there's a lack of oversight by the Chinese government, but Lego is in an oversight position as a key client for the facility we're discussing. And Lego has shown, repeatedly, that they care. About quality, and ESPECIALLY about safety

I DO think that people who are worried about quality because of safety reasons are being hysterical. We have literally seen no evidence to suggest that anything of the sort you're suggesting is happening or would ever happen in the facilities Lego uses in China, but because those things have happened in different facilities in China in the past (China being, if you'll recall, one of the biggest countries in the world), under the purview of other, less meticulous companies, some people (including you, Lego Historian, who had always struck me as rational in the past) seem to think that it's only a matter of time before the same thing happens with Lego. But Lego's relationship with these facilities is becoming closer, not farther apart, and I expect that means the amount of oversight is increasing as well. I'll eat my words if we ever see any sort of recall of Lego due to contamination... but I don't expect that to ever happen.

EDIT: And finally, just to clarify, I wasn't even talking about safety concerns when referring to hysteria. I was referring specifically to the tendency to conflate non-issues (parts not made in China with quality issues or part design aspects like softer plastic) with the meme of poor-quality Chinese parts. But then you went and gave a perfect example of another kind of hysteria around this same issue.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Lyichir

[RCS]

If we didn't have politicians and big banks playing with money and causing world-wide inflation, we wouldn't need to rely on the Chinese so heavily for cheap goods.

I think the concern here is, with the articles above as proof, is that these types of issues with the chemicals in the plastics COULD creep into LEGO products. Just because it hasn't happened yet is no guarantee it won't happen in the future.

[Wodanis]

I was referring specifically to the tendency to conflate non-issues (parts not made in China with quality issues or part design aspects like softer plastic) with the meme of poor-quality Chinese parts. But then you went and gave a perfect example of another kind of hysteria around this same issue.

At what point are you going to stop trying to refute the argument? At first there was a point about quality and then it was refuted as if people are incapable of using the word in the correct context. This thread isn't reflective of 'a meme of poor quality Chinese parts'. It is a thread about the genuine article. Parts produced in China that do not possess the same standard and quality as other Lego parts, CMFs have shown to be a prime example.

Just because you don't wish to believe in the points that have been discussed doesn't mean you are correct in labelling it all as hysterical slandering of Chinese manufacture. In fact because TLG is so diligent in its pursuit of quality is the likely reason why there haven't been any major recalls as of yet. (Note: TLG does have recalls of products but they are relatively few in scope.) It is also a fact, that Lego cannot use its grade of ABS plastic in China. No, it isn't a magical formula, but they do have a standard grade they use which is why all their parts and products are consistent. Unfortunately they have to use whatever local grade of ABS China uses, until such time as their factory becomes operational and maybe then they will be allowed to import their own raw materials. At which point they have stated publicly that the sets and parts produced there will be for the Asian market. How far that will last is anyone's guess. Finally I do not believe you can lay the blame solely on the moulds. The parts I took issue with in my own collection didn't have an issue with how it was shaped but as I've stated with the quality of the part due to the grade of ABS from China.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Wodanis

[HawkLord]

I have a question that may be more or less off-topic, but does anyone have a definitive list of what types of material are still made in China? I know CMFs are and I think someone mentioned Chima, but what else?

[Wodanis]

8% of all Lego parts are made there, these consist of Duplo, CMF, Chima, Friends and some of the Super Heroes line and of course certain elements from City. They also mentioned some electronics and textiles.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Wodanis

[Cult_Of_Skaro]

8% of all Lego parts are made there, these consist of Duplo, CMF, Chima, Friends and some of the Super Heroes line and of course certain elements from City. They also mentioned some electronics and textiles.

Wait, are you saying that the whole sets are Chinese for Chima and Friends?

[Wodanis]

Wait, are you saying that the whole sets are Chinese for Chima and Friends?

No, but there are parts that are. I wrote to the TLG a few months ago asking about Chinese made parts and that is part of what they told me.

[AndyC]

Yup, it's the yellow that bugs me the most too. Heads are okay but the hands usually look awful compared to regular minifigs.

Even unrelated to China-produced stuff, the variation in the yellow bricks coming from Denmark alone usually make me avoid predominantly yellow sets!

Yellow has been a consistently poor colour ever since the switch away from pre-coloured pellets. And, if anything, I'd say the yellow coming out of China is more consistently the same shade than anywhere else.

[kibosh]

8% of all Lego parts are made there, these consist of Duplo, CMF, Chima, Friends and some of the Super Heroes line and of course certain elements from City. They also mentioned some electronics and textiles.

Great. Duplo made in China. The pieces most likely to go into a child's mouth.