Track Issues

[retrotecchie]

Just got the 7939 Cargo Train Set...which comes with a small oval of track and a couple of points and a selection of flexi-track.

Not impressed!!

So why, oh why, did LEGO move away from the standards they defined oh so many years ago? I have trains going right back to the 1960's (116, 120), the 70's (171, 182, 183) and some odds and ends of later trains (7710, 7740). Vintage blue and white track was replaced by the grey/dark grey track, but the grey rails would still clip onto the white sleepers allowing you to mix and match grey and blue track. The points were also the same, with the Y end having two parallel connections. Designing and laying out track was a breeze. Then the 12V stuff came along....which was exactly the same as the 4.5v grey track, but with conductive centre rails. The 12v conductors, transformer and controller were all available separately, so your could retrospectively electrify old track if you so desired. And....still all track was compatible.

Then, the short lived 9v system came along.....completely different track with the silly interlocking pegs to join it together. You could not connect the 9v track to the older stuff. And now....new City Track. Just like the 9v, but a single plastic moulding.

So Blue to Grey - compatible

Blue or Grey, with or without 12 conductors - compatible.

Old Blue or Grey to later 9v track - incompatible

9v Track to new City track - compatible and useable if you replace the 9v motors with PF stuff.

BUT.....the pitch has never changed (rails on studs 2 and 7), any train will run on any rail system if you make provisions for internally powering the train, but why oh why did LEGO change the mechanical interface of the rails? Clearly my new PF Train runs beautifully on my old blue or grey track, alongside my older 4.5v sets....but I now have a load of new track I can't do much with, and LEGO clearly don't want to sell me the Curved/Straight rails set anymore....I now have to buy nasty flexy.

AND......what on EARTH was their rationale for changing the shape of the switching tracks.....you now cannot make a parallel siding like you could with the earlier blur and grey tracks as the points are no longer parallel....and even on the 7939 Cargo train, you cannot make a perfect parallel siding with two points and the flexy.....the pitch isn't right because of the shape of the switching tracks.

I will probably put my new track back in the box and forget about it....hey, a whole 3m of track wasted isn't going to lose me any sleep when I have several kilometres of the 'good stuff'!

I have asked the LEGO tech bods in Denmark (via the UK office) to come up with a 'connector' to interface new 'all in one' plastic track (and the 9v come to that), with the old stuff. All it would need is the one stud wide connector piece with lugs from one end of the straight track moulded onto a 1x8 plate to allow the old rails to clip to the end. Heck....if I could buy a single piece of straight track, I'd do a cut and shut job and manufacture my own! But....having to use glue and a Stanley knife to modify existing elements just seems to be a poor solution.

Now, for the record, I don't have any 9v or 12v stuff....my evidence is based on looking at a friend's son's LEGO. I had the early stuff when I was a kid, and then skipped LEGO during the 90's as I was too busy trying to just 'get by' to spend any money. Now I have some disposeable income to spend on LEGO again (in my mid 40's!) I can indulge my passion for trains. But....chalk and cheese, the old and new rails....and contra to the entire LEGO philosophy that any element made today shoud mate with any element made in 1958!

Edited January 17, 2011 by retrotecchie

[roamingstop]

If you check out the threads on Narrow Gauge railways, and also the links on railbricks, you will find it is possible to use normal Lego plates alongside the new RC / 9V system. This could provide you a way to make a suitable jump plate between the two standards.

[talltim]

While I understand your point, I can't help feeling you are 20 years too late!

With regards to point geometry, I think that the 9V/RC/PF version is better although neither is perfect.

I'm sure someone has built a 19V to 12V track converter section out of Lego and posted it here, but I can't find the thread.

Edit, roamingstudio has posted the link in the post above, while I was searching!

Edited January 17, 2011 by talltim

[retrotecchie]

20 years too late?!

I guess!

Had I had the cash to buy train sets and track between 1995 and 2010 then I would have had a reasonably smooth and seamless transition across all 5 generations of Trains but buying a house, having kids, getting married and all that malarkey meant funds were diverted elsewhere for fifteen years :)

But...my 1966 116 Complete Train Set runs on the new 2009 rails and my 2010 Cargo Train runs on the old 1960's blue rails. I guess I could always sell my new track on Ebay now LEGO ITIW have stopped selling the Curved and Straight Rail Pack and everyone seems to be crying out for it!

My Level Crossing and the Station from the new City themes work just as well with the older track types....at least sleeper spacing (end to end) and track pitch didn't change over the last 45 years!

[SavaTheAggie]

20 years too late?!

I guess!

Had I had the cash to buy train sets and track between 1995 and 2010 then I would have had a reasonably smooth and seamless transition across all 5 generations of Trains but buying a house, having kids, getting married and all that malarkey meant funds were diverted elsewhere for fifteen years :)

But...my 1966 116 Complete Train Set runs on the new 2009 rails and my 2010 Cargo Train runs on the old 1960's blue rails. I guess I could always sell my new track on Ebay now LEGO ITIW have stopped selling the Curved and Straight Rail Pack and everyone seems to be crying out for it!

My Level Crossing and the Station from the new City themes work just as well with the older track types....at least sleeper spacing (end to end) and track pitch didn't change over the last 45 years!

There's nothing wrong with the 9v and PF points. If it weren't for the 9v points, building 8 wide trains would be impossible, as 8 wide trains couldn't pass each other with no gaps between.

--Tony

[retrotecchie]

There's nothing wrong with the 9v and PF points. If it weren't for the 9v points, building 8 wide trains would be impossible, as 8 wide trains couldn't pass each other with no gaps between.

--Tony

What's really wrong with it, Tony, is I haven't got any!

[Rustie86]

It is possible to create parallel tracks using the 9v/RC track geometry. All you need is to install a single curve on the curved branch of the turnout. They'll be parallel, but the tracks will be on a 16-stud center (the center of each parallel section will be 16 studs apart. There will be 8 studs between tie/sleeper ends).

[peterab]

To connect 9V/PF track to blue and grey era track just use a jumper plate under the 9V/PF track, which results in a half stud offset. A train will easily cross the from one to the other.

These issues are well known and there are many pictures of solutions online if you care to look.

Before flaming LEGO for changing needlessly perhaps you need consider what they were trying to achieve. The 9V change encouraged better acceptance of Lego trains among model train clubs, and hence a huge growth of the US Lego train fan base, but it wouldn't have happened without conducting rails, and they needed more surface connection (much like the male/female ends of the 12 conducting rail) hence the interlocking pegs.

Also the newer track is far more robust, I can still remember the frustration of the blue and grey track coming apart while a train was running and derailing it.

I have asked the LEGO tech bods in Denmark (via the UK office) to come up with a 'connector' to interface new 'all in one' plastic track (and the 9v come to that), with the old stuff. All it would need is the one stud wide connector piece with lugs from one end of the straight track moulded onto a 1x8 plate to allow the old rails to clip to the end. Heck....if I could buy a single piece of straight track, I'd do a cut and shut job and manufacture my own! But....having to use glue and a Stanley knife to modify existing elements just seems to be a poor solution.

You can buy a single straight piece easily on Bricklink if the half stud offset really bugs you. I hardly think it would be worth Lego making a new mold for the few people who would care about this, especially since you can join them reasonably using two 3c parts.

Edited January 21, 2011 by peterab

[retrotecchie]

To connect 9V/PF track to blue and grey era track just use a jumper plate under the 9V/PF track, which results in a half stud offset. A train will easily cross the from one to the other.

These issues are well known and there are many pictures of solutions online if you care to look.

Before flaming LEGO for changing needlessly perhaps you need consider what they were trying to achieve. The 9V change encouraged better acceptance of Lego trains among model train clubs, and hence a huge growth of the US Lego train fan base, but it wouldn't have happened without conducting rails, and they needed more surface connection (much like the male/female ends of the 12 conducting rail) hence the interlocking pegs.

Also the newer track is far more robust, I can still remember the frustration of the blue and grey track coming apart while a train was running and derailing it.

You can buy a single straight piece easily on Bricklink if the half stud offset really bugs you. I hardly think it would be worth Lego making a new mold for the few people who would care about this, especially since you can join them reasonably using two 3c parts.

Actually, what I have ended up doing is buying a single curve...and cutting the two ends off and gluing them to a 1x8 plate. The perfect solution, and as most people have plenty of unloved and unwanted City-type curves for a few cents on Bricklink, pretty cheap and quick.

Older trains actually run really well on the new track, and I agree it is far more robust. It is also better mechanically and it's dimensionally stable....take two blue straights and two white 8x1 sleepers and assemble as per usual. Then, grip the opposite ends of the sleepers and pull. Result: A parallelogram rather than a rectangle! The later grey track was more stable, especially if you bothered to fit the intermediate sleepers. Since the grey track days, the sleepers have had mounting holes premoulded into them so if you wish to screw or pin them down to a substrate board, the resulting assembly and stability is absolutely rock solid.

And yes, most derailments in the 'good old days' were caused by a bit of the blue popping off the sleepers, but that was half the fun back in the 70's, wasn't it?!! Especially on deep pile carpet!

I just have over 1km of old blue and old grey track, not very much of the new stuff, LEGO have made it harder to buy new track as an individual item and it would be nice to occasionally run my new 7939 round the old layout and my 116 and 171 and the like around the small loop of new track in a nice seamless transition.

Guess I want to have my cake and eat it!

[jamesed_1971]

To me the Lego 4.5 blue track on White Plates is useless, as it tends to come apart quite easily, especially when my Lego LNER Flying Scotsman Steam Locomotive is running, with one or two rails coming off the Lego plate and the Lego Locomotive dis rails, which at the end of the day I am planning to either invest in 9 Volt Track or RC Track,

[Aaron]

BUT.....the pitch has never changed (rails on studs 2 and 7), any train will run on any rail system if you make provisions for internally powering the train, but why oh why did LEGO change the mechanical interface of the rails? Clearly my new PF Train runs beautifully on my old blue or grey track, alongside my older 4.5v sets....but I now have a load of new track I can't do much with, and LEGO clearly don't want to sell me the Curved/Straight rails set anymore....I now have to buy nasty flexy.

You could always buy the straight/flexible pack and sell the flexible rails on ebay...

[AlmightyArjen]

12V was the best with the remote options and I had a lot of it. But I switched to 9V rails instead. Why? Every time I broke down a track (I don't have the luxury of an attic where I can leave the track laying around (yet)) a lot of sleepers broke because they were 25 years old. The 9V system is MUCH stronger so I sold the 12V stuff (kept something for nostalgic reasons). Best decision ever. But I agree with the switch points: that was one stupid mistake of TLG. And I still wonder why the hell they switched back to batteries: parents will have to buy tonnes of batteries or a very expensive batterybox...

[Duq]

The 9V system made sense in many ways. The track sections are stronger and easier to assemble. Power transfer from the rails is more reliable than the pickups from the centre conductor rail. While most regular model railways use 12V Lego's choice of 9V made sense as they were trying to create a system of compatible components across Technic, Trains and other themes.

The geometry of the switches is awkward if you want to combine two but makes perfect sense otherwise; add a curved section to a switch and you're back to parallel. Track is now 8 studs apart rather than side by side which is more realistic and more practical. You can now have a platform between tracks and you can have wider trains. Emerald Night would not have been possible on 12V track.

As for the switch back to batteries, as far as I know that was triggered by American health and safety; you can't market a toy that plugs into mains to children under a certain age.

Flex track was an answer to the call for more variety in track geometry. I don't think it's been the success that it should have been. Going by the fact that it's no longer included in the new train sets I suspect it may have gone out of production.

With all these complaints you need to keep in mind what the target audience is for Lego trains...

[AlmightyArjen]

As for the switch back to batteries, as far as I know that was triggered by American health and safety; you can't market a toy that plugs into mains to children under a certain age.

This sounds more something like an EU-thing: they're always busy with these kinds of things instead of the real European problems (but that's another discussion)

[JopieK]

You are underestimating the US :) I have lived there for half a year (internship), and it was a great time with great friends that I got to know there, but... if you only look at a bottle of bleach you can already see how mad 'safety' concerns have gone: 'use for x, y and z, all other use prohibited'. Check this link :)

[lostdriveway]

Slight modification of a turnout will allow you to run 8 stud wide parallel. See below - this is what I just did for my layout.

[zephyr1934]

As for the switch back to batteries, as far as I know that was triggered by American health and safety; you can't market a toy that plugs into mains to children under a certain age.

I had heard that the 9v track molds had worn out and the cost of applying the metal to the rails was too expensive (the parts had to be shipped to a 3rd party to apply the metal, then shipped back). But whichever, 9v is gone now.

[v6TransAM]

I'm going PF and calling it a day.

Its something for my son and I to enjoy, so whatever route gets us there without going broke is the one I'm taking :-)

Pass set acquired, Cargo train is here awaiting his birthday next mth. Also bought two more Lego switch packs as well as 10 boxes of straight/curved knock off, so we will be covered in trains lol.

I am willing to bet its a combination of all the above. Mostly I would think due to the rise in oil and raw materials(metal) spelled the end for the 9 volt. PF lets them spread it over more of the Lego brand and cutting costs further. Also they only have one expensive resource to deal with versus two.

Lostdriveway, care to share your switch mods there to us? I do not have any in hand yet to compare.

Edited February 14, 2014 by v6TransAM

[lostdriveway]

I got the idea from this post - but obviously using the PF track I don't have to worry about the metal rail etc. I cut it using a small hobby saw and just filed the rough edges which wasn't much. I lined the 2 points up on top of each other to measure out the cut, marked a line and didn't look back!

If you see in my picture above - the 2 wooden sleepers I have put in the middle track - between those 2 is where you make the cut - if you look closely you can see a line across the top of the rail.

Pics as promised. The first one shows where to cut - there is a gap in the plastic under the metal between the 1st and 2nd sleepers on the slip track, I've circled it. Cut there, I used a simple hacksaw and fine sand paper to smooth off the ends.

The second pic shows two points cut and lined up. To make sure I cut in the right place I used plates (as in this pic) to line the point up with one raised a couple of plates over the other so that they lined up one above the other. (I don't have enough uncut points to post a pic I'm afraid...) For security etc I join the modified points with a couple of 2x4 plates which holds everything in place.

Depending on how accurately you cut you might have a tiny gap between the two sets of points. You can either bridge this with a small piece of adhesive metal tape or leave it. I tend to leave the gap as it means I can run two trains with separate power supplies in different directions. To switch trains from one track loop to the other just make sure both are running in the same direction when the motor crosses the gap. A couple of practice runs and you'll get the hang of it very quickly.

One last piece of advice when cutting; if in any doubt, cut off less than you think you need to. You can always cut off more but it's very difficult to replace it!

Hope that helps, if it's not clear please ask.

Andy

Edited February 14, 2014 by lostdriveway

[ddagraca]

Just got the 7939 Cargo Train Set...which comes with a small oval of track and a couple of points and a selection of flexi-track.

Not impressed!!

So why, oh why, did LEGO move away from the standards they defined oh so many years ago? I have trains going right back to the 1960's (116, 120), the 70's (171, 182, 183) and some odds and ends of later trains (7710, 7740). Vintage blue and white track was replaced by the grey/dark grey track, but the grey rails would still clip onto the white sleepers allowing you to mix and match grey and blue track. The points were also the same, with the Y end having two parallel connections. Designing and laying out track was a breeze. Then the 12V stuff came along....which was exactly the same as the 4.5v grey track, but with conductive centre rails. The 12v conductors, transformer and controller were all available separately, so your could retrospectively electrify old track if you so desired. And....still all track was compatible.

Then, the short lived 9v system came along.....completely different track with the silly interlocking pegs to join it together. You could not connect the 9v track to the older stuff. And now....new City Track. Just like the 9v, but a single plastic moulding.

So Blue to Grey - compatible

Blue or Grey, with or without 12 conductors - compatible.

Old Blue or Grey to later 9v track - incompatible

9v Track to new City track - compatible and useable if you replace the 9v motors with PF stuff.

BUT.....the pitch has never changed (rails on studs 2 and 7), any train will run on any rail system if you make provisions for internally powering the train, but why oh why did LEGO change the mechanical interface of the rails? Clearly my new PF Train runs beautifully on my old blue or grey track, alongside my older 4.5v sets....but I now have a load of new track I can't do much with, and LEGO clearly don't want to sell me the Curved/Straight rails set anymore....I now have to buy nasty flexy.

AND......what on EARTH was their rationale for changing the shape of the switching tracks.....you now cannot make a parallel siding like you could with the earlier blur and grey tracks as the points are no longer parallel....and even on the 7939 Cargo train, you cannot make a perfect parallel siding with two points and the flexy.....the pitch isn't right because of the shape of the switching tracks.

I will probably put my new track back in the box and forget about it....hey, a whole 3m of track wasted isn't going to lose me any sleep when I have several kilometres of the 'good stuff'!

I have asked the LEGO tech bods in Denmark (via the UK office) to come up with a 'connector' to interface new 'all in one' plastic track (and the 9v come to that), with the old stuff. All it would need is the one stud wide connector piece with lugs from one end of the straight track moulded onto a 1x8 plate to allow the old rails to clip to the end. Heck....if I could buy a single piece of straight track, I'd do a cut and shut job and manufacture my own! But....having to use glue and a Stanley knife to modify existing elements just seems to be a poor solution.

Now, for the record, I don't have any 9v or 12v stuff....my evidence is based on looking at a friend's son's LEGO. I had the early stuff when I was a kid, and then skipped LEGO during the 90's as I was too busy trying to just 'get by' to spend any money. Now I have some disposeable income to spend on LEGO again (in my mid 40's!) I can indulge my passion for trains. But....chalk and cheese, the old and new rails....and contra to the entire LEGO philosophy that any element made today shoud mate with any element made in 1958!

If you're still searching for a solution, here is a custom made link for your old to new tracks:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Lego-Train-4-5V-to-PF-RC-track-Adapter-/271723515585?pt=Building_Toys_US&hash=item3f43fbcec1

Cheers :)