Star Wars: OT vs. PT vs. TCW

[Fallenangel]

Yes, sometimes it messes with the storyline a bit, but overall, it doesn't change anything important. (AKA the actual movies, yes it may contradict some books, but that's moderately on the obscure side and isn't a huge deal)

I would have to disagree with you there. Putting aside all the Expanded Universe lit which you classify as "obscure" here are two major points that the '08 seriess effectively rewrote:

- Anakin was knighted in the last year of the war.

- Anakin is whiny, rash and highly unstable which disqualifies him for any sort of role as a Master to a Padawan.

Some other things:

- The Eta-2 Actis-class Interceptor that pretty much made the opening scene of Sith had already been in use at the time Anakin was knighted; this is seen in the fact that we see Anakin climb into an Eta-2 and take off immediately after he is knighted in Clone Wars Chapter 21. This also implies that the Delta-7B should never have existed at all.

- The AT-RT was not introduced until Clone Wars Chapter 22 during the Outer Rim Sieges, which took place from 20 BBY on.

- Likewise, the ARC-170 was not introduced until 20 BBY. (The first appearance of the ARC-170 was in the Obsession comics compiled in Clone Wars Volume 7 which took place in 20 BBY.)

- The Venator is also not introduced until 20 BBY, as it makes its first appearance in MedStar II: Jedi Healer which takes place in 20 BBY.

- Grievous didn't acquire his nasty coughing habit until Mace Windu crushed his chest plates in Chapter 25, which takes place during the Battle of Coruscant.

- Asajj Ventress is Rattataki, not Dathomiri.

- Togruta don't wear shoes.

I can't help but feel that it is rude of you to dismiss large parts of the established Star Wars canon as obscure and not being a huge deal, as there may be fans here who base part of their love for the franchise on it. Expanded Universe lit may be old and even apocryphal, but to some fans it will never become obscure. Remember, brickartist asked that we be respectful as opposed to narrow-minded.

[Cad Bane]

All I meant was that in response to the "ANH was the best and the rest of the episodes and the Clone Wars would never have existed/ruined everything" comments, that over all, they are more important than the secondary EU material (that is less known than the actual movies and main book offshoots). These other books now describe what could have been, and if you like it better, you could follow that vision rather than Lucas'. I don't mind that they're contradictory, it's still Star Wars. We'll all have our favorites, and mine just happens to be the movies and the Clone Wars.

[Brickdoctor]

All I meant was that in response to the "ANH was the best and the rest of the episodes and the Clone Wars would never have existed/ruined everything" comments, that over all, they are more important than the secondary EU material (that is less known than the actual movies and main book offshoots).

CW is by no means more important than the novels. It ranks higher in canon, yes, but both are critical contributors to the SW timeline (and whether or not you think they are good contributions or not doesn't alter this statement) Besides, Republic Commando is not a 'main book offshoot'. It's a multimedia campaign to rival Shadows of the Empire, complete with a very popular FPS video game.

[Fallenangel]

All I meant was that in response to the "ANH was the best and the rest of the episodes and the Clone Wars would never have existed/ruined everything" comments, that over all, they are more important than the secondary EU material (that is less known than the actual movies and main book offshoots). These other books now describe what could have been, and if you like it better, you could follow that vision rather than Lucas'. I don't mind that they're contradictory, it's still Star Wars. We'll all have our favorites, and mine just happens to be the movies and the Clone Wars.

Excuse me, but Wookieepedia states:

* C-canon is Continuity Canon, consisting of all recent works (and many older works) released under the name of Star Wars: books, comics, games, cartoons, non-theatrical films, and more. Games are a special case, as generally only the stories are C-canon, while things like stats and gameplay may not be;[7] they also offer non-canonical options to the player, such as choosing female gender for a canonically male character. C-canon elements have been known to appear in the movies, thus making them G-canon; examples include the name "Coruscant," swoop bikes, Quinlan Vos, Aayla Secura, YT-2400 freighters and Action VI transports.

* S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors, while many other older works (such as The Han Solo Adventures) were accounted for in continuity from the start despite their age, and thus were always C-canon.

* N is Non-Canon. What-if stories (such as stories published under the Infinities label) and anything else directly and irreconcilably contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm. Information cut from canon, deleted scenes, or from canceled Star Wars works falls into this category as well, unless another canonical work references it and it is declared canon.

All of the Clone Wars material I just referred to falls into C-Canon, not S-Canon. And only N-Canon describes "what could have been".

Any by the way, I just wanted to point out that there is nothing unusual about Maul appearing to train Savage because the Dark Jedi Exar Kun appeared as a spirit to Luke Skywalker's disciples throughout the Jedi Academy Trilogy (which took place after the events of Dark Empire).

[The Legonater]

With all due respect, maybe you don't think that isn't such a big deal, but there are a lot of us who read and are fans of the novels of that era. And there aren't very many people who've read the novels that would pick CW over, say, Republic Commando.

All of the Clone Wars material I just referred to falls into C-Canon, not S-Canon. And only N-Canon describes "what could have been".

Agreed. Filoni keeps changing things to his own preferance, sometimes for script ideas, sometimes arbitrarily (changing Plo's lightsaber from gold to blue?). C-canon isn't to be changed, but he keeps changing it. And now, with Qui-Gon, he's possibly going as far to mess up a carefully laid plot in the movies. Many fans love the EU, and Filoni seems not to care. They kee telling us they'll retcon all of this, but I have no clue how they'll manage that.

[Brickdoctor]

Agreed. Filoni keeps changing things to his own preferance, sometimes for script ideas, sometimes arbitrarily (changing Plo's lightsaber from gold to blue?). C-canon isn't to be changed, but he keeps changing it. And now, with Qui-Gon, he's possibly going as far to mess up a carefully laid plot in the movies. Many fans love the EU, and Filoni seems not to care. They kee telling us they'll retcon all of this, but I have no clue how they'll manage that.

Precisely.

Wasn't Plo's light saber orange in the Ep. 1 video game?

Just looked it up, it was yellow.

Edited January 22, 2011 by Brickdoctor

[simonjedi]

- Anakin was knighted in the last year of the war.

- Anakin is whiny, rash and highly unstable which disqualifies him for any sort of role as a Master to a Padawan.

Bad Writing

Some other things:

- The Eta-2 Actis-class Interceptor that pretty much made the opening scene of Sith had already been in use at the time Anakin was knighted; this is seen in the fact that we see Anakin climb into an Eta-2 and take off immediately after he is knighted in Clone Wars Chapter 21. This also implies that the Delta-7B should never have existed at all.

Nope. He's knighted and there's a montage of Anakin being cool, then the ice planet bit. (WHICH ACTUALLY CONTRADICTS LABYRINTH OF EVIL) '08 CW takes place in the montage.

- The AT-RT was not introduced until Clone Wars Chapter 22 during the Outer Rim Sieges, which took place from 20 BBY on.

- Likewise, the ARC-170 was not introduced until 20 BBY. (The first appearance of the ARC-170 was in the Obsession comics compiled in Clone Wars Volume 7 which took place in 20 BBY.)

- The Venator is also not introduced until 20 BBY, as it makes its first appearance in MedStar II: Jedi Healer which takes place in 20 BBY.

- Asajj Ventress is Rattataki, not Dathomiri.

Only Pedantic nerds actually care about this stuff.

- Grievous didn't acquire his nasty coughing habit until Mace Windu crushed his chest plates in Chapter 25, which takes place during the Battle of Coruscant.

That annoyed me. '03 Grevious is much better than '08/film Grevious anyway.

- Togruta don't wear shoes.

...

I can't help but feel that it is rude of you to dismiss large parts of the established Star Wars canon as obscure and not being a huge deal, as there may be fans here who base part of their love for the franchise on it. Expanded Universe lit may be old and even apocryphal, but to some fans it will never become obscure. Remember, brickartist asked that we be respectful as opposed to narrow-minded.

IMO depends what it is. I'm bothered by the conflicting info about the Death Star plans, less so about the imaginary spaceship being introduced one space year earlier in a book instead of the TV show.

[Brickdoctor]

Nope. He's knighted and there's a montage of Anakin being cool, then the ice planet bit. (WHICH ACTUALLY CONTRADICTS LABYRINTH OF EVIL) '08 CW takes place in the montage.

I hope you're right, as that would avoid contradiction with the '03 show (although I think book contradictions would remain), but that leaves a window of what, 6 months?

[Praiter Yed]

'snip' Many fans love the EU, and Filoni seems not to care. They kee telling us they'll retcon all of this, but I have no clue how they'll manage that.

As far as I'm aware there's never been an element of time travel in any SW. Time travel is the holy grail of sci-fi, as soon as they introduce it they can mess with canon as much as they want and then say the time-line got changed. It's lazy and it's a cliché, so we can probably expect it at some point.

[simonjedi]

I hope you're right, as that would avoid contradiction with the '03 show (although I think book contradictions would remain), but that leaves a window of what, 6 months?

It could be any period I don't know how much time passes during the montage. Luke and Leia are conceived in episode 22 so at least 9 months. (she gives birth to the twins like 1/2 hour in real time after order 66.)Unless there is some stupid obscure detail on space pregnancies in a book from 1994 that 'contradicts' that. Best guess is about a year, year and a half max.

E:

As far as I'm aware there's never been an element of time travel in any SW. Time travel is the holy grail of sci-fi, as soon as they introduce it they can mess with canon as much as they want and then say the time-line got changed. It's lazy and it's a cliché, so we can probably expect it at some point.

You'd think so, but no.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Time_travel

There is 'force time travelling' which is as stupid as it sounds.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flow_walking

Edited January 22, 2011 by simonjedi

[Brickdoctor]

It could be any period I don't know how much time passes during the montage. Luke and Leia are conceived in episode 22 so at least 9 months. (she gives birth to the twins like 1/2 hour in real time after order 66.)Unless there is some stupid obscure detail on space pregnancies in a book from 1994 that 'contradicts' that. Best guess is about a year, year and a half max.

That does make sense. Hopefully 100 episodes can fit into that...

[Fallenangel]

Nope. He's knighted and there's a montage of Anakin being cool, then the ice planet bit. (WHICH ACTUALLY CONTRADICTS LABYRINTH OF EVIL) '08 CW takes place in the montage.

Look around 12:30. Anakin still has short Padawan hair, so it's well before the montage. Yes, it's quite different from the one in the film, but Wookieepedia identifies it as the Eta-2.

I'm not sure about the whole Nelvaan bit either... but then again, there are numerous discrepancies between Labyrinth of Evil and the cartoon series.

And the Death Star novel was just one big retcon, so I would dismiss at least that.

[Cad Bane]

Agreed. Filoni keeps changing things to his own preferance, sometimes for script ideas, sometimes arbitrarily (changing Plo's lightsaber from gold to blue?)

In Jedi Power Battles, Plo Koon wields a yellow lightsaber, which was echoed in the Plo Koon figure for Episode I, under the Power of the Jedi series. He also wields a yellow lightsaber in his appearances in Emissaries to Malastare, but an orange lightsaber in The Stark Hyperspace War, Jedi Council: Acts of War, and Obsession. The figure technically had a light greenish-yellow lightsaber but this matches the Jedi Power Battles video game closely and is probably meant to be yellow (like the Power of the Force 2 Darth Vader figures having pink lightsabers instead of a true red). These two instances were contradicted by Plo's use of a blue lightsaber in Attack of the Clones and The Clone Wars TV series and a green lightsaber in the Republic: The Dreadnaughts of Rendili [/Quote]

It would seem though that Filoni was meerly keeping true to AOTC.

[Brickdoctor]

Look around 12:30. Anakin still has short Padawan hair, so it's well before the montage. Yes, it's quite different from the one in the film, but Wookieepedia identifies it as the Eta-2.

I don't know... Anakin could probably grow his hair to CW length in a month or so. That leaves a year, give or take another month. Which I still think isn't enough time, but...

And the Death Star novel was just one big retcon, so I would dismiss at least that.

Albeit a very good novel. (or so I thought)

It would seem though that Filoni was meerly keeping true to AOTC.

Gotta give that one to you.

[BrickArtist]

Oh yes, I agree. Actually I don't really mind the whole Vader-Luke relationship, it's what Anakin was made out to be in the PT, not the OT that bothers me. Without TPM and AotC, Vader is still the evil monster in AnH and ESB. Not so much in RotJ, but the OT has a poetic justice ending, and it was kind of necessary to soften Vader up for Ep. 6. Even though 4 and 5 are still far and away better than 6. Honestly, I think if Vader really was a rogue who killed Luke's real father, it would have been too much like a classic fairytale. Bad guy does something bad to a good guy, another good guy goes and avenges the first good guy. This way, now all 4 human main characters become dynamic characters.

Yup, I think that might of been what lucas was going for in ROTS, anti poetic. The ending is sad, the battle fit the description obi gave in ANH(Pg-13 allows that). The end is the galaxy plummeting into darkness, with order 66, and the emperors speech to the senate. Without OT the bad guys win!

[Zarkan]

You hit the nail on the head right there. This, for me, is the crux of the problem with basically every Star Wars event since ANH, and the thing that has made me like every new installment a little bit less, to the point where I don't even care enough to watch the CW DVDs (I don't have TV, so watching it live isn't in the cards. I've only seen a few episodes of CW). To me, ANH was an amazing movie. Everything else is just a bunch of sequels that got progressively more watered down and less interesting. We start off with an epic battle of good vs. evil, the story of a simple farmboy taking his place in the fight against oppression. Real characters with human limitations, having real relationships. An old man who was once a great fighter and can still do some pretty cool stuff in a pinch. A philosophy that wasn't thrown in our faces and explicated to the point of total nonsensicality.

Everything starts to go downhill with ESB. Taking Obi-Wan's place is an 800-year-old Muppet who can levitate a machine the size of an F-15. The fights get more acrobatic. Instead of one huge, impractical terror weapon, we have a whole battle group of huge, impractical terror machines landing on Hoth. Instead of the Falcon fighting TIE fighters, the Falcon is fighting TIE fighters and a fleet of Star Destroyers in a swirling maelstrom of dancing asteroids. There are worms big enough to eat starships living in the vacuum of space. The Dark Side is part of us. The ultimate face of evil is the hero's father. The hot princess is the hero's sister. ESB was well directed, but still a lot sillier, and seemed sillier than it was by virtue of having everything take on a faux-serious context. Lucas is telling us "this isn't just fluff, it's SERIOUS STUFF!"

ROTJ: More Muppets. Lots more Muppets. The farmboy hero has become Spider-Man, jumping all over the place and using his superpowers to fight off giant monsters left and right. The hot princess shows some skin. The ultimate evil isn't ultimately evil anymore, so we meet a new Ultimate Evil and yet another huge, impractical terror weapon. The war is won with the help of some teddy bears who have never seen a robot before. The former ultimate evil father is redeemed, the sister gets together with the pirate, everybody happy. "This series was never about Luke Skywalker, it's about the good and evil in all of us. This was Anakin Skywalker's story!"

TPM: Hey, remember the ultimate face of evil back in the first movie? Well, he was once a cute little mop-top kid. And he built C-3PO. And he was a slave! Isn't that cool? Isn't it deep? And now EVERYBODY is a Muppet! And everybody can jump around like Spider-Man! And everything is shinier! And here's a new ultimate face of evil! Don't get too attached to him, by the way.

AOTC: Hey, remember that battle between good and evil? Well, forget it. This is about politics. I told you this was a serious story! The cute little mop-top is all grown up, and he's deeply conflicted. But he's still a good guy. Oh, and here's another fifty million shiny spaceships. Begun this clone war has.

ROTS: ended this clone war has. Look, more shiny spaceships! Isn't it cool how they sort of resemble the spaceships you used to love?

CW: OMG, did I really just kill my cash cow? Wut was I thinking? Wait, let's backtrack. There's SO MUCH MORE money, er, I mean story that I wanted to tell. Look, a shiny spaceship! You should buy it, it might look exactly like the shiny spaceship in AOTC but really it's an advanced model, not at all the same thing.

Woah, woah, I agree with you about the prequels and CW, and maybe even about ROTJ but... seriously, The Empire Strikes Back was the best Star Wars movie ever in a lot of people's eyes, including mine. It took everything that was great about the first movie and amped up to a thousand, with some awesome new characters an even more epic soundtrack. Also, how can you diss the Hoth Assault, which was just the first of many cool moments in the movie that proved "the Empire is back with a vengance." The Death Star may have been impressive, but Luke also blew it up after it had destroyed only a single planet. In contrast, in TESB the empire (and Darth Vader in particular) owned the rebels this way and that. Siller? Try darker, and also better partly because of that. Actually, I think you probably dissed just about everything that made Empire Strikes Back so awesome in my eyes - and honestly, that's not cool at all.

[Brickdoctor]

Woah, woah, I agree with you about the prequels and CW, and maybe even about ROTJ but... seriously, The Empire Strikes Back was the best Star Wars movie ever in a lot of people's eyes, including mine. It took everything that was great about the first movie and amped up to a thousand, with some awesome new characters an even more epic soundtrack. Also, how can you diss the Hoth Assault, which was just the first of many cool moments in the movie that proved "the Empire is back with a vengance." The Death Star may have been impressive, but Luke also blew it up after it had destroyed only a single planet. In contrast, in TESB the empire (and Darth Vader in particular) owned the rebels this way and that. Siller? Try darker, and also better partly because of that. Actually, I think you probably dissed just about everything that made Empire Strikes Back so awesome in my eyes - and honestly, that's not cool at all.

I agree, but while I like ESB better than AnH, I think the two are equals as far as the story goes, it's just that the bad guys win in one and the good guys in the other.

[Gryphon Ink]

To anyone who feels insulted on behalf of Star Wars because of my "synopsis", please understand: the Star Wars movies, all six of them, are THE go-to family movies in my house. ROTJ is playing at this very minute, with my entire family gathered around the tube. We watched ESB three days ago, and ANH last week. This family lives and breathes by the Jedi code, and most of us toss around Yoda quotes in every situation. That is all.

[Fallenangel]

Bump for preservation.

I'd like to say something about a minor point that came up in the 'Star Wars' thread. I admit 'Death Star' might sound uncreative and even cliche to some of us but that's only an example of how iconic and widespread the films have become. Besides, I think it's supposed to be simple. I mean, when you get right down to it even the name 'Star Wars' doesn't seem particularly innovative; 'star' and 'wars' are both fairly common words.

'Super Tank', on the other hand, sounds like some cheesy toy the Cartoon Network is trying to entice kids into buying - which is probably all it will be in a few years' time. In a typical American society you can say 'Death Star' and pretty much anyone over 40 will understand, but mention 'Super Tank' and I'll bet you about twenty people will scratch their heads and say, 'Huh? What's that?' (I mean, I hardly even remember what the thing looks like!)

[Brickdoctor]

It looks like someone slapped an armor plate onto the top of an MTT, gave it the innards of an MPTL, and decided it was the latest greatest thing. And gave it a bad name. I mean, Super Star Destroyer was bad enough, but Super Tank? (and SSD was retconned as a nickname for a Star Dreadnaught)

[simonjedi]

You could say the same for the PT. It won't be as bad because of the net and the TV shows, but there's nothing in the PT that is iconic. In 30 years will we be remembering the Naboo starfighter or an AT-TE? Probably not. The OT is great because the 'iconic stuff' have appeared in most of the 3 films. The only thing(s) I can think of that have been in all 3 PT films are the Vulture droids, TF coreships and maybe the Naboo starfighter.

Edited January 28, 2011 by simonjedi

[The Legonater]

I disagree- there are things in PT that are just as iconic as OT. Like the Ep.1 and 3 duels or the Podrace (however much of a rip-off it was) or the long-awaited opening Clone Wars battle (I.E. Geonosis)

[simonjedi]

I disagree- there are things in PT that are just as iconic as OT. Like the Ep.1 and 3 duels or the Podrace (however much of a rip-off it was) or the long-awaited opening Clone Wars battle (I.E. Geonosis)

I don't mean scenes, i mean spaceships and vehicles.

[Brickdoctor]

I disagree- there are things in PT that are just as iconic as OT. Like the Ep.1 and 3 duels or the Podrace (however much of a rip-off it was) or the long-awaited opening Clone Wars battle (I.E. Geonosis)

Not really. The Podrace was rememberable, but not iconic. If you pull a person who's never really seen Star Wars off the street and show him the Podrace, he'll say it's sci-fi or he might ask if it's Star Wars. But show the same person the DS trench run and he'll see the X-wings and TIEs and say, 'That's Star Wars.'

[The Legonater]

Not really. The Podrace was rememberable, but not iconic. If you pull a person who's never really seen Star Wars off the street and show him the Podrace, he'll say it's sci-fi or he might ask if it's Star Wars. But show the same person the DS trench run and he'll see the X-wings and TIEs and say, 'That's Star Wars.'

Somehow I doubt someone who's never sceane Star Wars would know what very much is, besides maybe some of the big cast like- for example- Vader or Yoda. Granted, those are both OT charecters.