Star Wars: OT vs. PT vs. TCW

[BrickArtist]

That's one line I still remember from watching Episode I when I was 9 years old. I loved the film thoroughly, and didn't find it confusing at all. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were ambassadors to the Trade Federation, presumably to investigate their increased presence near Naboo.

Yeah-All of it is explained in the prelude as well.

The saga doesn't need TPM, but I quite liked it all the same. I think its a nice addition to the SW universe, and keep in mind its all personal opinion.

[The Legonater]

The main problem with TPM is that you can completely ignore it and the saga would still make some sort of sense.

Yeah. Lucas admitted that TPM was mainly just to indroduce thigns. It isn't particularily needed- but then again, generally, so could ANH.

[Brickdoctor]

It isn't particularily needed- but then again, generally, so could ANH.

?

Get rid of AnH and we don't know how the DS was destroyed, how Luke met the rest of the heroes, how Obi-wan died, how Luke became a Rebel, why Vader is looking for Luke...

[The Legonater]

?

Get rid of AnH and we don't know how the DS was destroyed, how Luke met the rest of the heroes, how Obi-wan died, how Luke became a Rebel, why Vader is looking for Luke...

1, we wouldn't know what the DS was, so it wasn't important 2, as far as we'd know, Luke was always there, 3, Yes, that's the one problem. 4, same as 2, 5, he's a bad guy, what would we expect

Of coruse, this wouldn't be optimal- I'm just saying episode 1 and 4 are similar in that sence- they aren't 100% needed, but they should be there..

[Fallenangel]

Valorum's important because he was the supreme chancellor, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent as ambassadors because the Trade Fedaration was blockading Naboo for something about politics, Ep.3 had a lots more CGI shots than EP.1, and at least the acting was better than a lot of the movie and shows out there. Emergancy powers makes perfect sence- basically the leader gets to do more stuff because it's war. And the movies aren't targeted at 8-year old- why would a movie for 8-year old be rated PG-13?

Sorry, but your explanation tells me.. nothing I don't already know. I got that Valorum was already Chancellor and that the Queen's ship flew through a blockade (though I don't see how a shiny target could fly through a fleet of Lucrehulks without being obliterated, but whatev, it's a movie). What I don't remember is how and why the Senate was involved in the blockading of some random planet by a militaristic organization that we've never heard of - in other words, the whole "something about politics" which judging from your response you did not seem to get either. The same can be said about the whole political situation around the emergency powers - okay, some systems seceded, Jar Jar represents Naboo since Padme is in danger, but Naboo was involved in Palpatine getting emergency powers HOW? And what does this all have to do with Obi-wan being captured at Geonosis and the Jedi beginning the Clone Wars? I guess if you watch Sith where it all gets tied together it does make some kind of sense (Palpatine becomes Emperor and initiates the Great Jedi Purge), but otherwise... what? At least Star Wars and Empire hold up pretty well on their own as well as part of a saga (which is why you can understand the events of Empire without having seen Star Wars, as you said).

Only Sith was rated PG-13 - the rest, including Episode I, were PG (though Sith certainly had its PG moments - "It's only because I'm soooo in love..." ugh.)

The main problem with TPM is that you can completely ignore it and the saga would still make some sort of sense.

Of coruse, this wouldn't be optimal- I'm just saying episode 1 and 4 are similar in that sence- they aren't 100% needed, but they should be there..

See my response above.

[simonjedi]

Of coruse, this wouldn't be optimal- I'm just saying episode 1 and 4 are similar in that sence- they aren't 100% needed, but they should be there..

Plus in 5 you wouldn't know who Obi wan is. You'd think Luke is just mad talking to a ghost. The bit where he reaches for his saber in the cave is a big moment for the audience. Ep 1 could be a condensed in a 15 minute prologue.

[The Legonater]

What I don't remember is how and why the Senate was involved in the blockading of some random planet by a militaristic organization that we've never heard of - in other words, the whole "something about politics" which judging from your response you did not seem to get either. The same can be said about the whole political situation around the emergency powers - Naboo was involved in Palpatine getting emergency powers HOW? And what does this all have to do with Obi-wan being captured at Geonosis and the Jedi beginning the Clone Wars? Only Sith was rated PG-13 - the rest, including Episode I, were PG (though Sith certainly had its PG moments - "It's only because I'm soooo in love..." ugh.

I forgot that first thing in my previous post- The Trade Federations started the blockade because the Republic was raising taxes- which is probably drastic. It wasn't that Naboo specifically was invovled, Jar Jar was tricked and made the request, and everyone agreed. Simple. If you look closely, Obi-Wan was captured at Geonosis because he was an enemy of the Seperatists And the Jedi arrived at Geonosis because the Senate aproved the (Already made) army so they could make a decent fight.

And one possible reason for none of the first three being PG-13 is the rating wasn't invented yet- it was only made after Indiana Jones: Temple of Doom. And besides, do you call chocking someone to death, destroying a planet and everyone on it, electricuting someone so they turn on all their beliefs, corrupting a government, etc. aimed for 8-year ods?

Edited February 26, 2011 by The Legonater

[Duelpear]

Ever since I played The Force Unleashed I really have felt like that could/should have been the third movie from the prequel trilogy. Condense 1 and 2 into a single movie (pretty easy considering how little happens in both of them) then Force Unleashed's story is episode 3 which leads into original trilogy. The only problem though is that the original trilogy makes it very clear that the entire Star Wars film saga is from a Skywalker's point of view and is very Skywalker-driven. Initially, it's Anakin, then Luke. The problem with Force Unleashed is that the main protagonist isn't a Skywalker but on the other hand, the story (from the first Force Unleashed only) is just so damn good.

[Brickdoctor]

1, we wouldn't know what the DS was, so it wasn't important

The ESB opening crawl mentions, "although the Death Star has been destroyed".

[RvB]

how Obi-wan died

We wouldn't know Obi Wan.

[The Legonater]

Ever since I played The Force Unleashed I really have felt like that could/should have been the third movie from the prequel trilogy. Condense 1 and 2 into a single movie (pretty easy considering how little happens in both of them) then Force Unleashed's story is episode 3 which leads into original trilogy. The only problem though is that the original trilogy makes it very clear that the entire Star Wars film saga is from a Skywalker's point of view and is very Skywalker-driven. Initially, it's Anakin, then Luke. The problem with Force Unleashed is that the main protagonist isn't a Skywalker but on the other hand, the story (from the first Force Unleashed only) is just so damn good.

I don't think so- games don't tend to play well as movies. Plus it wasn't thought of untill a good 4, 5 years after RotS. And you can't condence 1 and 2- how do you take a kid and turn him into a fourteen year old halfway through the movie, make that kid who was a 9 year old a few mintues before madly in love with the girl who was just queen and then go in an entirly differant plot direction?

The ESB opening crawl mentions, "although the Death Star has been destroyed".

Really? Don't remember that.

[Fallenangel]

And one possible reason for none of the first three being PG-13 is the rating wasn't invented yet- it was only made after Indiana Jones: Temple of Doom. And besides, do you call chocking someone to death, destroying a planet and everyone on it, electricuting someone so they turn on all their beliefs, corrupting a government, etc. aimed for 8-year ods?

No, Star Wars and Empire were teen/adult movies. It was only from Jedi on that Lucas aimed the films at children (and it shows).

Really? Don't remember that.

Allow me:

*ahem*

"Episode V

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK

It is a dark time for the Rebellion. Although the Death Star has been destroyed, Imperial troops have driven the Rebel forces from their hidden base and pursued them across the galaxy.

Evading the dreaded Imperial Starfleet, a group of freedom fighters led by Luke Skywalker has established a new secret base on the remote ice world of Hoth.

The evil lord Darth Vader, obsessed with finding young Skywalker, has dispatched thousands of remote probes into the far reaches of space..."

I can't write Aurebesh, but I can at least recite the opening crawls for all three films by heart.

For those mentioning The Force Unleashed - I think that as this is primarily a Prequels & '08 Clone Warsvs-Original Trilogy argument, it's not quite relevant, just as Shadows of the Empire and Expanded Universe lit wouldn't be relevant.

[Churchill]

I'd never seen the Red Letter Media reviews- thanks for the referral SimonJedi and Fallenangel. While they're a bit... odd... almost all of the points he made are good arguements why the OT is better than the PT.

Now, I can enjoy watching the PT, and CW, and I've always tried to keep an open mind. But those reviews have reenforced to me that the prequel movies are just not as good as the original. That's not a preference, like I like red and you like blue. The stories aren't as good, the acting isn't as good, and there is just waaaay to much cgi going on. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Star Wars (ie, A New Hope) worked because it was a good story. Just because The Phantom Menace is "Star Wars" and is drowned in cgi effects doesn't mean it's in the same league as Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back.

It's not a generational thing, it's not what you grew up with. It's what's good movie making and what's not.

[The Legonater]

No, Star Wars and Empire were teen/adult movies. It was only from Jedi on that Lucas aimed the films at children (and it shows).

Really? I always found the first half of AotC to be like a stupid teen romance movie...

[BrickArtist]

Really? I always found the first half of AotC to be like a stupid teen romance movie...

I'll give you guys that-AotC was horrendous:

"Ohhhhh Anny protect me anny, ohhhh, protect me from Zam weasel"

"It's not the jedi way"

"Ohhh Anny"

"Ok fine"

:sing:

It's like glee, star wars, sappy spanish soap, in a big ball of boringness.

[Fallenangel]

I'd never seen the Red Letter Media reviews- thanks for the referral SimonJedi and Fallenangel. While they're a bit... odd... almost all of the points he made are good arguements why the OT is better than the PT.

Yes, a strange accent and some very crude humor, and half the time he's complaining about how stupid all the characters are, but he does have good points.

Really? I always found the first half of AotC to be like a stupid teen romance movie...

Yes, like something an 8-year old would expect to see...

Again, Clones wasn't a complete failure - for example, I liked some of the vehicle designs ( such as the Delta-7 and the AT-TE) - but the dialogue was just...

"I hate sand..."

[The Legonater]

Again, Clones wasn't a complete failure - for example, I liked some of the vehicle designs ( such as the Delta-7 and the AT-TE)

Yeah, the second half definatly salvaged the movie

"I hate sand..."

The way you put that is just hillarious

[Brickdoctor]

We wouldn't know Obi Wan.

You mean other than three scenes in Empire and two in Jedi?

No, Star Wars and Empire were teen/adult movies. It was only from Jedi on that Lucas aimed the films at children (and it shows).

You also have to take into account the changing of ratings systems. According to Wikipedia,

The ratings used from 1972 to 1984 were:

...

Rated PG: Parental Guidance Suggested—Some material may not be suitable for pre-teenagers.

As compared to the current 'not suitable for children' description that was added after the creation of the PG-13 rating.

And BTW, the PG-13 rating was added because of Temple of Doom, not for it, and was first used for the movie The Flamingo Kid.

So as far as intentions are concerned, the OT's PG rating labeled it at the time as a movie not appropriate for children.

[Fallenangel]

So as far as intentions are concerned, the OT's PG rating labeled it at the time as a movie not appropriate for children.

Interesting... I always did wonder why 'Parental Guidance Suggested' meant that kids could watch it.

Sorry to bring up the Red Letter Media reviews again, but I'd like to say that towards the end of the review for Sith Plinkett suddenly begins to sound intelligent and compares dialogue scenes and the use of plot devices in the Prequels, and I was quite surprised at how similar in character movement the dialogue scenes for the Prequels were. And when he transitioned between Prequel and Original Trilogy footage it was amazing how much more alive and human the Original Trilogy scenes felt in comparison to, say, Anakin and Padme sitting on a couch (though I don't understand why he used so much footage from the Special Editions if he doesn't like all the CGI garbage that they stuffed into it).

As for sand... the only reason I even remember that line in the first place is because I've watched

at least ten times...

"Master Yoda, where are the clones?"

"Hmm, lost the clones I did, hmm, hmm?"

"You lost them?!"

"Not so good my memory is, hmm?"

[Churchill]

I just finished watching the Sith review. You're right, fallenangel. It's almost as if it was an attempt to recycle to save... and it just doesn't work. It was never going to work because the story, the emotional connection, just wasn't there.

Watching those reviews was, while a very disturbing experience, a very enlightening experience. I always knew that I believed the OT was better but I always secretly wondered if I was just getting old or out of touch.

SimonJedi, via Fallenangel, thank you. I'll never look at the debate between old and new the same way again.

Edited February 27, 2011 by Churchill

[BrickArtist]

I honestly prefer Rots on a number of levels-Its more than just the Cgi, massive battles, and story. Its really the potential for lego MOCing, and little details that I love about it. Every time I watch that movie I observe something new, something with a second or less of screen-time. Like a glimpse of luminara, or the landed Venator behind the battle of Kashyyk.

The movie starts with a lone Venator, two Howling Eta-2s, and a yellow sun. There is a level of symbolism in Rots, like OBi and Anikan flying wingtip to wingtip into battle to assault Grievous. Why is grievous mechanical? Because thats what the entire droid army is, mechanics, no clone Valor, or bravery. Dooku is killed in the opening scene, why? Lucas needed to display Anikans power, and urge for vengeance against Dooku. Also Lucas needed to show how easily manipulated Anikan was by sidious(Yes Palpatine is a politician, Sidious was the one who manipulated Anikan. I don't think those 'Red Letter Media' Guys really get what the point of sidious leading both sides was. The point of the war was merely to destroy the Jedi, establish an empire, and make Anikan a Sith. Sidious had to have the war for numerous reasons such as:

-To maintain Power over various worlds to make sure that the transition from the Galactic senate, to imperial senate was smooth

-To destroy the jedi.

-Very little known fact: The outer rim sieges were all part of the elaborate plan to draw the republic to the outer rim, then strike to kidnap Palpatine. The real point was so palpie could see him in action.

-To establish power over the senate.

The Red Letter reviews are so primitive that they didn't pay attention to the real story in RotS.

Why so much time on Coruscant? We needed to see how the chancellor worked his way into the Council, using Anikan as a his Eyes/Ears. We also need to establish how much Anikans relationship with Padme has effected him in his focus on restoring piece-Shes a distraction from the jedi in him.

When the 41st is deployed to Kashyyk we get our first instinct of how thin the jedi are being spread by the war, Yada, a senior member of the council is forced to lead a battalion of clones and defend a somewhat helpless species(The droids would have had certain victory fighting lone wookies).

Obi-Wan is another part of Sidious' plan, without Obi-Wan , and without Yoda, Anikan is left with little guidance. Slowly using Anikans emotions against him and using legends of Sith to unite him with the Sith. It's critical that these scenes were included to show how lost Anikan was at this point. We had to see him grow into Vader, otherwise it's a sloppy transition. Sidious knows Anikan won't kill him on site; he would inform the council.

Windu being killed first a good decision on Lucas' part, hes sort of the all powerful pillar under the jedi order, and temple. If he is killed the only place the order can go is down.

In addition to all this complexity Lucas shows how worlds are effected. Like Utapau, for example, after Order 66 the Pau'ns are arrested and taken away by Codys' men.

The next thing I'd like to adress is Order 66, beautifully done, and I mean beautifully done One of the best scenes in SW if you ask me (Up their with lukes vision of Ben In Anh, telling him to use his instincts, AotC Gunships/Clone Army arrival, and RotJs Death star explosion ). After the AT-TE guns down Obi-wans Lizard, Boga, between its Cry's as it plummets into the water, the music changes and the order crumbles. It was done sooooo well.

When Padme flies to Mustafar, and Anikan chokes her for not joining him seals the deals-He is Sith. "You are lost Anikan" (I think I recall using that word earlier eh?). If you recall at the start of the movie Anikan risks his own life for Obi, but now he defies him and dismisses him as an enemy, character development(The reason Anikan speant the movie with Sidious). Dealing in an 'Absolute' as Obi says. This duel is a great one-The lava makes the scene all the more fantastical.

So after explaining the movie, I think I can conclude that the red letter reviewer needs to invest a bit of time thinking about the movie itself, and not making it as humorous as possible ( :laugh: ). I'm not putting down the OT in any way, and I'm not saying all the acting was great either, but I am saying that behind the Cgi, occasional poor acting, and writing, thats a pretty damn good movie. Give it a chance next time 'round, and don't dismiss it as 'PT' and walk away.

Edited February 27, 2011 by DobbyClone

[Fallenangel]

I honestly prefer Rots on a number of levels-Its more than just the Cgi, massive battles, and story. Its really the potential for lego MOCing, and little details that I love about it. Every time I watch that movie I observe something new, something with a second or less of screen-time. Like a glimpse of luminara, or the landed Venator behind the battle of Kashyyk.

The movie starts with a lone Venator, two Howling Eta-2s, and a yellow sun. There is a level of symbolism in Rots, like OBi and Anikan flying wingtip to wingtip into battle to assault Grievous. Why is grievous mechanical? Because thats what the entire droid army is, mechanics, no clone Valor, or bravery. Dooku is killed in the opening scene, why? Lucas needed to display Anikans power, and urge for vengeance against Dooku. Also Lucas needed to show how easily manipulated Anikan was by sidious(Yes Palpatine is a politician, Sidious was the one who manipulated Anikan. I don't think those 'Red Letter Media' Guys really get what the point of sidious leading both sides was. The point of the war was merely to destroy the Jedi, establish an empire, and make Anikan a Sith. Sidious had to have the war for numerous reasons such as:

-To maintain Power over various worlds to make sure that the transition from the Galactic senate, to imperial senate was smooth

-To destroy the jedi.

-Very little known fact: The outer rim sieges were all part of the elaborate plan to draw the republic to the outer rim, then strike to kidnap Palpatine. The real point was so palpie could see him in action.

-To establish power over the senate.

The Red Letter reviews are so primitive that they didn't pay attention to the real story in RotS.

Why so much time on Coruscant? We needed to see how the chancellor worked his way into the Council, using Anikan as a his Eyes/Ears. We also need to establish how much Anikans relationship with Padme has effected him in his focus on restoring piece-Shes a distraction from the jedi in him.

EDIT:Computer Glitched, I'll finish this later

Okay, I have to agree with you there. Although maintain that several of the points in the Sith review were valid, I guess I should have mentioned that many of Plinkett's points aren't valid because he knows next to nothing about the Clone Wars, which honestly hurt his argument (how much time does the guy spend asking who 'General Grievance' is?!). I guess that's my personal reason for liking Sith more than the other two Prequels - there are just so many elements carried over from the Clone Wars (like those Eta-2s which just look fantastic) and it actually fits together, even though the consensus would be that (as Plinkett implied) only Star Wars nerds would actually care. And despite what he said about CGI being no big deal, the Venator in the beginning did make for a pretty good opening sequence.

Edited February 27, 2011 by fallenangel309

[Churchill]

I think I would agree with that too, Fallenangel. But I recall that it took me watching Revenge of the Sith to be able to put all the pieces together from the first two movies. That wasn't necessary with IV and V. But poor character and relationship development is rampant in Sith as well.

Plus, if it wasn't for the V-wings in Sith, I wouldn't have my new avatar.... thanks Fallenangel!

[BrickArtist]

Okay, I have to agree with you there. Although maintain that several of the points in the Sith review were valid, I guess I should have mentioned that many of Plinkett's points aren't valid because he knows next to nothing about the Clone Wars, which honestly hurt his argument (how much time does the guy spend asking who 'General Grievance' is?!). I guess that's my personal reason for liking Sith more than the other two Prequels - there are just so many elements carried over from the Clone Wars (like those Eta-2s which just look fantastic) and it actually fits together, even though the consensus would be that (as Plinkett implied) only Star Wars nerds would actually care. And despite what he said about CGI being no big deal, the Venator in the beginning did make for a pretty good opening sequence.

You 600th was a positive remark about the PT, whats going on!?

Read my extended post, Churchill. I know that development doesn't meet the eye at first. But keep in mind a Sith such as Sidious, is treacherous, and smart. He has developed, his development is like old-republec stuff. However Anikan and Padmes developed plenty, as did Obis and Anikans.

[Gryphon Ink]

I'm not sure where you guys are getting the idea that ANH wasn't meant for kids. The PG rating was not in any way meant to keep kids away from a movie, it just meant there was more violence than you would find in a G movie. Kids under the age of 10 could and did go to a PG movie without any adults, and no one would even blink.

I saw ANH when I was seven, and I was far from the only kid in the line. If my memory is at all accurate, most of the audience was families, with very few adults on their own. Most of the initial reviews of the movie were full of whining about how Lucas had singlehandedly <insert that tiresome argument> the blockbuster movie with childish storytelling and cutesy characters. Adult-oriented science fiction in the Seventies was mostly stuff like Silent Running, the Omega Man, Soylent Green, Planet of the Apes and Rollerball. It was almost all serious stuff with a Big Message, totally unlike Star Wars.

And Lucas certainly wasn't selling all those action figures and Star Wars bedsheets to adults. There was no adult market whatsoever for those things at the time. They were all being bought by and for kids under 10 who had seen the movie multiple times and wanted to keep on reliving the story.