Star Wars: OT vs. PT vs. TCW

[Clone OPatra]

Ok ok, my bad. Consider as though it never happened.

Personally, I love the 2003-2005 Clone Wars series. That one is George-authorized as well, and it's just so awesome. It has the feel of a typical Cartoon Network kid show (it was made by the same person as Samurai Jack and Dexter's Laboratory after all), but with all of the awesomeness of Star Wars. The characters feel as they do in the films, but just a bit cartoonized, unlike in the new CW show where the main characters are really all wrong. And there's the plus of no Ahsoka.

When I first watched the old CW show, I thought it was quite stupid. Mace's Galen Marrik-type force abilities are ridiculous, but on the whole it is an accurate portrayal and, in a sense, timelapse of the war. The five-episode third season is especially very cool, and works brilliantly up to the opening moments of RotS. Even if you don't care for the novels (although Labyrinth of Evil is quite good), the old show does a wonderful job bridging the entire time from AotC to Rots. And it was just created as an advertisement!

I really wish the new show was more like the old one. Every time I return to watching clips of the old one I am saddened by how good it was even though it was a ridiculously short advertisement.

[Brickdoctor]

Mace's Galen Marrik-type force abilities are ridiculous,

Yeah, that's the part of the old CW series that bothered me the most.

but on the whole it is an accurate portrayal and, in a sense, timelapse of the war. The five-episode third season is especially very cool, and works brilliantly up to the opening moments of RotS. Even if you don't care for the novels (although Labyrinth of Evil is quite good), the old show does a wonderful job bridging the entire time from AotC to Rots.

I agree. It linked the episodes and filled in the blanks without destroying huge portions of the timeline. CW, on the other hand as I found out reading Wookieepedia, recently retconned the background of an entire novel series that is three books going on four by killing off Even Piell.

[The Legonater]

Well said. Frankly, what I always hated about the old CW series was the cartoonish timing- I.E, someone jumps in the air for an attack, hovers there for a few seconds, and then swings/fires. When I saw tCW in theaters, I was glad they chose a more fluid animation.

Edited March 15, 2011 by The Legonater

[BrickArtist]

Yeah, that's the part of the old CW series that bothered me the most.

Same here, the whole super-duper, mega jedi, stomp thing was so unrealistic. The again so is yoda riding into battle on a Camel-Horse hybrid

On the contrary SW has never kept much consistence in the force abilities of jedi. Like for example, in Sith Obi has to strain himself to push Grievous, yet he removes a block that had to weigh more than ton like it's nothin'. Or in all the other SW films the jedi and sith never thought to just force lift somebody and throw them to their death, like in TPM Obi has to cut maul in half to dispose of him.

[Zarkan]

The sheer number of previously established events the new Clone Wars series is contradicting astounds me, and it really makes it clear that George Lucas doesn't care squat about any Star Wars related product that doesn't directly conform to his vision. The problem is, his vision has been changing constantly since the very first drafts of what became Episode IV. I'm not sure if he's even thinking beyond dollar signs any more, and he doesn't seem to be interested in pleasing anyone besides the hordes of kids that buy oodles of merchandise but don't care squat about canon or continuty.

Heck, who wants to bet that, if the live action series set between Episodes III and IV ever gets off the ground, it will completely screw with everything shown in The Force Unleashed video games?

[Brickdoctor]

Same here, the whole super-duper, mega jedi, stomp thing was so unrealistic. The again so is yoda riding into battle on a Camel-Horse hybrid

Kybuck. And I loved that part. It didn't ruin the realism or storyline and I thought it was a great replacement for the hover-chair in battle.

[The Legonater]

I'm not sure if he's even thinking beyond dollar signs any more, and he doesn't seem to be interested in pleasing anyone besides the hordes of kids that buy oodles of merchandise but don't care squat about canon or continuty.

Probably true:

The scary thing is you're right, Lucas has moved beyond the storytelling and into the warped money-thinking.

[BrickArtist]

Kybuck. And I loved that part. It didn't ruin the realism or storyline and I thought it was a great replacement for the hover-chair in battle.

As did I, a little un-SWy, but awesome. I loved how all the clones and gunships come in behind him.

[Fallenangel]

Ok ok, my bad. Consider as though it never happened.

Personally, I love the 2003-2005 Clone Wars series. That one is George-authorized as well, and it's just so awesome.

Hmm, authorized the '03 Clone Wars, did he? It seems, contradicting his own universe Lucas is. What goes on in his mind, forever a puzzle to us will it remain.

Seriously though, the old series really is better... crazy Force usage aside, the blocky 2-D animation almost feels closer than the ocean of CGI that is the Neo-Clone Wars.

Same here, the whole super-duper, mega jedi, stomp thing was so unrealistic. The again so is yoda riding into battle on a Camel-Horse hybrid

On the contrary SW has never kept much consistence in the force abilities of jedi. Like for example, in Sith Obi has to strain himself to push Grievous, yet he removes a block that had to weigh more than ton like it's nothin'. Or in all the other SW films the jedi and sith never thought to just force lift somebody and throw them to their death, like in TPM Obi has to cut maul in half to dispose of him.

I think the reason for the inconsistency has to do with the idea that the more powerful the presence of the Force is, the more predictable that character becomes. In other words, if all Jedi were incredibly strong with the Force nothing would harm them and stuff like seeing them destroy MTTs by shoving them against each other (as Yoda did during the Battle of Coruscant) would get really boring after a while. I think one of the most ridiculous instances would have to be Qui-Gon trying to cut through triple blast doors rather them just blowing them apart with the Force and saving a lot of time.

Part of what worries me about the live-action series is what it will do to Fett's backstory as presented in The Tales of the Bounty Hunters. I happen to think it was rather well-written and I would hate for it to become apocryphal like the Coruscant Nights books just did.

[DarthR2-D2]

Probably true:

The scary thing is you're right, Lucas has moved beyond the storytelling and into the warped money-thinking.

Yah, he needs to get his fingers out of our wallets.

Everyone needs to watch Mr. Plinkett's Star Wars Reviews.

[Fallenangel]

A fan I was having a discussion with brought up the point that in the same way the Original Trilogy portrays the victories and losses of the Alliance in addition to the conflict between Luke and Vader the Prequels showed us the origins of the Galactic Empire as well as Anakin's journey to the Dark Side. Do you think either one of the two manages this dual storytelling element any better than the other? Is this element also present in the '08 series?

[The Legonater]

I'm more inclined to say OT. OT did a good job at having both of these plots very present, whereas PT skips most of the Clone Wars

[simonjedi]

OT does it easily. By the BoY happens you've seen how bad the Empire is, and that the rebels are going on a last ditch suicidle attack. You care about minor characters like Wedge and Biggs, because they're risking their lives and have personalities . They succeed (just) and you're rooting for them because they've done the impossible. In ESB they loose pretty badly, You feel bad for them, People died. I

Clones and Sith has 2 armies of CGI faceless drones, lead by characters you don't care about, so you're not bothered if Clone 20037 or Jedi master action figure (available in good toy stores) bites it. TPM had the potential to care about the Naboo but was ruined by:

* Half the population being Annoying RabbitFrog things.

* You don't actually see the other half in any danger. You only see them capture some pilots, the Queen's party and like 3 random extras. You're told that they're all dying but like a day has passed since they left which is too soon.

* The Reason that the TF invade is so stupid and dull, you spend the first 10 minutes why Star Wars is about space taxes.

[BrickArtist]

Faceless armies? You guys contradict yourselves a lot. TCW has had entire episodes devoted to developing the relationships between clones. They also show the separatist losses too.

This conversation is sorry for the size 7 Mods, I just feel it's necessary.

If You Don't Like The PT Then Just Don't Watch It.

Edited March 28, 2011 by DobbyClone

[Clone OPatra]

No, I feel that Fallen posted a legitimate question for discussion, and people have been giving it their reasoned answers. There's nothing wrong with that; people are allowed to share their opinions about why the PT disappoints them.

Star Wars is Star Wars. Some of the acting in the PT and many whole episodes of the CW sow make me stick in the stomach, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't watch it. I watch because I like the universe and I'm interested to see what Lucas is doing with his own creations, even though there are many EU writers who are far more inventive and contribute far better additions to the SW universe as a whole.

Bashing any part without reason is not to be tolerated, but I haven't seen that going on lately. You may not agree, but people are allowed to think that many aspects of the PT are downright stupid.

[Brickdoctor]

Personally, I think that in this case the OT has a slight advantage because the sides are set before the trilogy starts. The Luke vs Vader conflict simply becomes a part of the Rebels vs Imperials conflict. Up until the final scenes, Luke is good guy hero and Vader is bad guy villain, and the two battle each other while the Rebellion battles the Empire. For the PT, telling the story of Anakin's fall is much more complicated than his redemption, and the small conflict doesn't parallel the larger one. The OT conflicts are good guy vs bad guy and good faction vs bad faction. The PT is doing good guy vs his internal badness and good guys led by bad guy against bad guys led by the same bad guy. The PT has to tell a much more complicated story (which isn't always a good thing, but we've been through that already).

[Aanchir]

Regarding the talk of "inconsistencies" created by the Clone Wars series, I'm a bit confused. I always thought the distinguishing factor between the core of the franchise and the "expanded universe" was that George Lucas could basically contradict anything he felt like in Expanded Universe when he felt it appropriate to cover that in the films (or the Clone Wars series, which at least from what I've read is officially considered "higher priority" than Expanded Universe). Expanded Universe material tends to have many of its own internal inconsistencies, so unless the Clone Wars TV series is contradicting the movies themselves I don't see where the issue is.

[Fallenangel]

Faceless armies? You guys contradict yourselves a lot. TCW has had entire episodes devoted to developing the relationships between clones. They also show the separatist losses too.

This conversation is sorry for the size 7 Mods, I just feel it's necessary.

If You Don't Like The PT Then Just Don't Watch It.

Excuse me, brickartist, but I'm not quite sure what you mean in saying that we contradict ourselves. Could you expand? Actually, maybe not. If you don't like where this argument is going (and I know you don't) there's no need to participate. I guess it's like reading those crude, pointless arguments on YouTube to you.

Regarding the talk of "inconsistencies" created by the Clone Wars series, I'm a bit confused. I always thought the distinguishing factor between the core of the franchise and the "expanded universe" was that George Lucas could basically contradict anything he felt like in Expanded Universe when he felt it appropriate to cover that in the films (or the Clone Wars series, which at least from what I've read is officially considered "higher priority" than Expanded Universe). Expanded Universe material tends to have many of its own internal inconsistencies, so unless the Clone Wars TV series is contradicting the movies themselves I don't see where the issue is.

While you are correct Aanchir, you must remember that some of us have preconceived notions of certain characters and events from the non-official source material, and when "official" sources contradict that, it upsets us. An example would be Grievous's entire backstory which was pretty much retconned with the Nahdar Vebb episode. So as you said, there's no "real" issue with continuity, since C-canon is below G-canon; it's just that we don't like it. Basically what happened with the Prequels back in '99. I know now that it really is quite pointless to whine about it, though, because the only one over at Lucasfilm who actually cares about the Expanded Universe is Filoni, and he's already doing what he can.

You could argue, though, that because the '08 series has contradicted so much established canon it could be classified as N-canon... but nah. Lucas approves it, therefore it's part of the "core" with the six (or is it seven?) films and the '03 series.

By the way, I think what you're referring to is THE Clone Wars. The "Clone Wars" TV series was way back before Sith, and believe it or not there are a few inconsistencies between that Clone Wars and this one as well as with the films, though they're mostly pretty small. (Again, Grievous... in particular, his coughing and his voice)

[Penitent Tangent]

I'm more inclined to say OT. OT did a good job at having both of these plots very present, whereas PT skips most of the Clone Wars

I'm not going to get into any big arguments on the matter, but I do think the PT was handled very badly. From what I hear, they started filming the Phantom Menace right after George finished the first draft and it really shows. I think the reason that the Clone Wars show has been much better is because George himself has less to do with production.. He comes up with many of the stories and characters but leaves it to others to flesh them out, write the scripts and direct them. Some people are much too hard on George Lucas, he certain deserves respect for what he does but I do feel he should have been pushed more to the side when filming the prequel movies and let others take over to develop things a lot more. Similarly, I think Star Trek became a lot better when the original creator of that became less involved in production.

Seeing Anakin as a boy on Tatooine for a whole movie seemed unnecessary, at most I think it could have been handled with a flash back and had the rest of the movie focusing on the build up the Clone Wars. Then with Episode 2 perhaps showing some of the more important events from those wars and exactly why they were so terrible.

The EU I feel can be mostly ignored. The bad by far outweighs anything good that comes from it and the sheer volume of different books and writers makes it impossible for anyone to keep track of.. much of the EU often contradicts itself and I think the fact people are angry when TCW does this, is just preposterous. I'm not saying you can't enjoy it, there are certain parts of the EU that even I love.. but I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape when something a random author wrote 10 years ago, with no contact or discussion with George Lucas, is ignored by the official sources.

[Fallenangel]

I'm not going to get into any big arguments on the matter, but I do think the PT was handled very badly. From what I hear, they started filming the Phantom Menace right after George finished the first draft and it really shows. I think the reason that the Clone Wars show has been much better is because George himself has less to do with production.. He comes up with many of the stories and characters but leaves it to others to flesh them out, write the scripts and direct them. Some people are much too hard on George Lucas, he certain deserves respect for what he does but I do feel he should have been pushed more to the side when filming the prequel movies and let others take over to develop things a lot more. Similarly, I think Star Trek became a lot better when the original creator of that became less involved in production.

Seeing Anakin as a boy on Tatooine for a whole movie seemed unnecessary, at most I think it could have been handled with a flash back and had the rest of the movie focusing on the build up the Clone Wars. Then with Episode 2 perhaps showing some of the more important events from those wars and exactly why they were so terrible.

The EU I feel can be mostly ignored. The bad by far outweighs anything good that comes from it and the sheer volume of different books and writers makes it impossible for anyone to keep track of.. much of the EU often contradicts itself and I think the fact people are angry when TCW does this, is just preposterous. I'm not saying you can't enjoy it, there are certain parts of the EU that even I love.. but I don't understand why people get so bent out of shape when something a random author wrote 10 years ago, with no contact or discussion with George Lucas, is ignored by the official sources.

I concur. The bloody truth of the Clone Wars would certainly have been much more interesting than poorly acted love scenes.

As for the Expanded Universe, when you put it that way it does seem rather unreasonable. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that certain authors of Expanded Universe lit (Timothy Zahn and Michael A. Stackpole merit mention) appear to have a better feel for the franchise than Lucas does?

[Mr Man]

OK I'm Moving my comments about CW VS TCW from the TCW series 4 discussion, I shouldn't have posted them in.

I for one hope that series 4 remakes and expands the last few chapters of Clone Wars into a extended storyline with depth (Unlike 2003) and watchable animation (Unlike 2003).

No no the whole series just the: rubbish animation, bad story's with no depth, Durge, Anakin of no personality, jousting, stupid bear people turned into sumo's. There was probably some good bits in it somewhere .

What!! Cad bane would eat Durge .

Bane is a believable character, Durge is a magic playdough man.

2003 tops 2008 in no way what so ever (Except the ARC troopers who act like real special forces not like red shirts ).

These are all my posts that should be over here.

Oh also some users just because I didn't start my comments off with I My opinion etc it doesn't mean I am dismissing anyone else's point of view. Some people might like the CW, Though I don't like IT ALL, they are good point to it.

On another note I disbelieve they are huge inconsistencies in SW stories, only minor inconsistencies between the 14 parts I like to think of as SW canon.

Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace

Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones

Star Wars: Clone Wars

Star Wars: The Clone Wars

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed

Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II

Star Wars: Droids

Star Wars: Dark Times (Untitled Live-action series)

Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope

Star Wars: The Holiday Special (parts of it anyway)

Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back

Star Wars: Ewoks

Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi

As far as I am concerned any other part of the EU is an alternate universe to this explaining away all inconsistencies. Other authors may have a better idea than GL but In my opinion only these 14 works will tell the whole story.

I don't like all of these i.e. CW, Ewoks, and Droids could be improved quite a lot, and some EU work is really good i.e.Rebublic and Imperial Commandos.

Disclaimer: This is all my opinion, not gospel truth.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Mr Man

[Brickdoctor]

I think I mostly agree, but the novels so far haven't seemed to contradict anything, other than the early ones that tried to tell the Prequels before the Prequels came out and the ones that contradict CW. I'd consider the KOTOR era and all the canon novels after Jedi (Thrawn Trilogy, Hand of Thrawn Duology, X-wing Series, New Jedi Order, Legacy, Fate of the Jedi, etc.) part of that list as well.

Although as far as I personally am concerned I just consider canon whatever Wookieepedia says is canon. (though that doesn't mean I can't complain about it when a new contradiction comes up)

[Mr Man]

I'd consider the KOTOR era and all the canon novels after Jedi (Thrawn Trilogy, Hand of Thrawn Duology, X-wing Series, New Jedi Order, Legacy, Fate of the Jedi, etc.) part of that list as well.

I wouldn't, though I really like the KOTOR and OR era to Me only things you can watch are canon because GL created a visual medium for His stories. The only exception is TFU I&II because GL says they are canon.

I would band everything else that doesn't contradict that list as low canon and the list as high canon, and everything else as non canon. WP is not really a great source of whats canon and whats not as it is often confused.

[Brickdoctor]

I wouldn't, though I really like the KOTOR and OR era to Me only things you can watch are canon because GL created a visual medium for His stories. The only exception is TFU I&II because GL says they are canon.

I would band everything else that doesn't contradict that list as low canon and the list as high canon, and everything else as non canon. WP is not really a great source of whats canon and whats not as it is often confused.

IMHO it's not up to us to decide if something is 'good canon' or 'bad canon' or 'high canon' or 'low canon', it's just plain canon. The types of canon listed by Wookieepedia should be used to determine which source overrides another source, not which one we should treat better. Even though I like the OT and novels better, I accept CW as canon, though it doesn't mean I always like it.

[Mr Man]

IMHO it's not up to us to decide if something is 'good canon' or 'bad canon' or 'high canon' or 'low canon', it's just plain canon.

Oh no I'm not trying to push this to anyone but it's easier for Me to discuss which is better if the discussion (for Me) is limited to them choices only. Not for instance which is better 'Dark Empire' or 'Sith' as only 'Sith' is cannon its pointless comparing or saying 'Sith' ruing the story of 'DE' (I don't know if it did its just an example).

The reason I prefer TCW to CW is because it has much more time to expand and develop characters and plots than CW, also in my opinion the animation is more photo realistic in TCW as well.

As for Durge vs Bane, Durge wouldn't look out of place in TMNT whereas Bane, or Embo or any TCW BH would fit right into the PT.

TCW isn't innocent though and they are things I don't like about it such as the multicoloured clones (I know 'Sith has them but I don't like them either), the animated style of Dooku (CW was way worse though), Ventress been from Dathamear (This isn't a contradiction for Me as I don't take Her previous appearances to be canon, however Maul was a Nightbrother from Iradonia brought up on Dathomer so Ventress should be a Nightsister from Ratiki brought up on Dathomer).

As well there was a few things I liked about CW that are exsclusive to it like MW (though not His animated style), the battle of Mulanist, and Grevius, (however I do think that Greviuses character in TCW is closer to His character in 'Sith'.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Mr Man