Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Discussion

[LEGOman273]

Senate Commandos are an armored branch of the Senate Guards. They were created after the Clone Wars began.

They will be similer.

[Mr Man]

Senate Commandos are an armored branch of the Senate Guards. They were created after the Clone Wars began.

They will be similer.

It seemed so at first but the only difference as of series 4 is the different helmet designs, they both wear clone armour, just with a different type of overcloak, helmet, and weapon.

Self plug but here's the different versions I made from the topic ADHO15's MS Paint Characters, and the image..

[KisKatona]

Good episode, nothing special. I think that if the clones weren't following Palpatine during the speech and made themselves scarce, it'd seem more festive. I like the shock troopers, but did anyone notice that the clone who arrested Bane changed from a Shock to a normal clone?

[Oky]

I thought it was a great episode! You can read my and Brickdoctor's review of it here:

http://eurobricksstarwarsforum.com/2012/02/14/the-clone-wars-review-crisis-on-naboo/

If you think the episode didn't have a plot or that it didn't make sense, I strongly advice you to read it because I tried to explain everything!

[Brickadeer]

I read the review.

I do not believe that Sidious planned to make Anakin joining the dark side at this point of time, and so I do not believe that he failed. The destruction of the Jedi Order, and the rise of Darth Vader go hand in hand, and this not a coincidence.

At the very end of the episode Palpatine says, "one shatters to think where the galaxy would be without the Jedi". This is not simple sarcasm, constituted by the knowledge of the audience about Palpatine's true identity.

At this point, he lays his plans for the Jedi Order fully open, but, of course, noone can understand that it is not the Chancellor who expresses his fears, but the Sith Lord who expresses his hopes and his ultimate future aim. The answer to the question where the galaxy would be without the Jedi is clear: it would be in his hand.

Disguised, Sidious can walk among the Jedi without being recognized, and can confront the Jedi with their fate without being understood, simply because they cannot see his true identity - and he knows it. This behaviour tells us something about his personality: he enjoys to play the big game, and he enjoys to make fun of those who suppose themselves to be powerfull, of what he will call later (in ROTS) the Jedi's "arrogance". There is no other explanation for his behaviour.

The function of the Jedi Order is to protect the peace of the galaxy. With the galaxy in his hand, "all the protection [he] needs is Anakin", which is another key sentence in this episode.

Why Anakin? What is the point of turning him to the dark side at the end of ROTS? Apparently, he does neither need him to get the republic under his control nor does he need him to destroy the Jedi Order: by the end of ROTS, he has achieved all this by himself, by relying on nothing but his own abilities. Sidious' behaviour displayed in this episode, his hate for the Jedi, his despise for those who believe themselves powerfull, offers an answer to this question.

Anakin is "The Chosen One" and as such a symbol of hope "to restore balance to the force". For Sidious, it is not enough to destroy the Jedi Order and to wipe out the Jedi physically. In his new order, the Galactical Empire, Darth Vader has the same function as the Jedi had in the old order. This new order is a caricature, a perversion of the old order: with transforming Anakin Skywalker into Darth Vader, he transforms the Jedi's hope into their Nemesis, and makes Vader a trophy, a lasting symbol of his superiority and his triumph over the arrogance of the Jedi; a symbol of his despise for the weak, for those who believed themselves to be more powerfull than he is, and those who tried to prevent him from taking the position that is rightfully his; that's why in ROTS he says that for the Sith, the Jedi represent the evil.

In this episode, he knows that it's not yet the time to persuade Anakin. Instead, he manipulates Anakin and loosens the bond between Kenobi and him: he flatters him by expressing his believe that such a brilliant plan must have been made by Anakin, and at the same time he forces him to confess that it was Kenobi's plan, not his, and in doing so, to admit his inferiority to Kenobi. Later in the episode, Dooku says that Kenobi is a worthy adversary, but not Anakin. So the seed of envy and distrust is planted, but it's not yet ripe to be harvested.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Oky]

Some interesting points, but I'll stick with my theory that this was a failed attempt to draw Anakin to the dark side, seeing as this plan was so similar to the one in ROTS. This seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through just to make Anakin a bit more envious. I think that was just a plan B after plan A failed, since Sidious always sets situations up so that he wins either way.

And I disagree on your statement that he toppled the Jedi Order all by himself. He wasn't the one who killed all (or most) of the Jedi, Vader was. He needed a right-hand man to do all his dirty work and protect him. The fact that he was the Jedi's hope was just a bit of added irony.

[Brickadeer]

Some interesting points, but I'll stick with my theory that this was a failed attempt to draw Anakin to the dark side, seeing as this plan was so similar to the one in ROTS. This seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through just to make Anakin a bit more envious. I think that was just a plan B after plan A failed, since Sidious always sets situations up so that he wins either way.

And I disagree on your statement that he toppled the Jedi Order all by himself. He wasn't the one who killed all (or most) of the Jedi, Vader was. He needed a right-hand man to do all his dirty work and protect him. The fact that he was the Jedi's hope was just a bit of added irony.

Personally, I think it's more than just some interesting points :)

I do not believe that at this stage of the war Sidious is so eager to get rid of the current leader of the Seperatist movement. Things were different in ROTJ, when he had a plan to get rid of the Jedi Order as well. The same with Anakin: in ROTS, he lured him into killing Windu, and from this point of time, there was no way back. I can't see that Sidious is already able to move Anakin into a comparable situation.

The whole plot furthers several goals; I wrote that somewhere earlier.

Most of the Jedi were killed through the execution of Order 66. At this point, Sidious had taken over the military while the Jedi Order was de facto destroyed. He didn't exactly *need* Vader in the sense that he could not do the remaining tasks himself, or that they could not be done by someone else.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Clone OPatra]

I do not believe that at this stage of the war Sidious is so eager to get rid of the current leader of the Seperatist movement. Things were different in ROTJ, when he had a plan to get rid of the Jedi Order as well. The same with Anakin: in ROTS, he lured him into killing Windu, and from this point of time, there was no way back. I can't see that Sidious is already able to move Anakin into a comparable situation.

I think we're supposed to believe Sidious is in complete control the entire time. It wasn't on a whim that he decided to get rid of Dooku and make Anakin his apprentice. He had been manipulating them both for a long time to do so, though of course neither could see it. Take a look at the end of Episode I. Palpatine pats Anakin on the shoulder and says he'll be watching Anakin's future easily. What does that mean, other than Lucas telling us that Sidious has extreme foresight? Just look at his rise to power for evidence as well. He somehow put himself as Senator of Naboo, made the Trade Federation attack the planet in order to create sympathy for Naboo, which would in turn get him a vote for Chancellor. That's some really extreme planning right there! Clearly, over the course of the entire Clone Wars he had a plan set to make Anakin his apprentice and get rid of Dooku at the right moment.

In the end, this arc was pretty clearly all about Sidious manipulating the Jedi and especially Anakin. The show writers are not that clever; when Palpatine offhandedly says he thought the mission was Anakin's idea it's clearly just a parallel to EpIII when he says he thinks Anakin should go to Utapau. The CW does this kind of parallel all the time. It's Palpatine boosting Anakin's ego and making him distrust the Jedi, plain and simple.

[Oky]

Too bad we have to wait two weeks for the next episode. It sounds promising.

I do not believe that at this stage of the war Sidious is so eager to get rid of the current leader of the Seperatist movement. Things were different in ROTJ, when he had a plan to get rid of the Jedi Order as well. The same with Anakin: in ROTS, he lured him into killing Windu, and from this point of time, there was no way back. I can't see that Sidious is already able to move Anakin into a comparable situation.

I agree with Cloney, I think Sidious had the Order 66 plan from the start (since it was part of the clones' training) and was just waiting for Anakin to join him before he issued the order.

So, if he wasn't eager to get rid of Dooku or didn't think Anakin was ready yet, why would he take the risk of having the two confront each other? What if Anakin would have killed Dooku? What if Dooku won and got away with the chancellor? If all he wanted to do was to make Anakin envious, those outcomes wouldn't make any sense.

I think he was probably ready to set his plan into motion if Anakin would have killed Dooku at this point since there would have been no way back then either. He could have easily proceeded exactly the same way he did after they crashed the Invisible Hand in ROTS.

[Brickadeer]

I think we're supposed to believe Sidious is in complete control the entire time. It wasn't on a whim that he decided to get rid of Dooku and make Anakin his apprentice. He had been manipulating them both for a long time to do so, though of course neither could see it. Take a look at the end of Episode I. Palpatine pats Anakin on the shoulder and says he'll be watching Anakin's future easily. What does that mean, other than Lucas telling us that Sidious has extreme foresight? Just look at his rise to power for evidence as well. He somehow put himself as Senator of Naboo, made the Trade Federation attack the planet in order to create sympathy for Naboo, which would in turn get him a vote for Chancellor. That's some really extreme planning right there! Clearly, over the course of the entire Clone Wars he had a plan set to make Anakin his apprentice and get rid of Dooku at the right moment.

I basically agree. But I'm not sure if you agree with part you quoted or if you want to raise this as an objection to the part you quoted. If you want to express that at this point of time he already could have taken over the Republic, destroyed the Jedi Order, and turned Anakin to the dark side, I disagree. If you want to express that Palpatine knew exactly what he was doing and how things would turn out at the end of the episode, I agree.

I think that by the end of ep 1 Palpatine knows already that Anakin has a tremendously high concentration of Medichlorians, and that as a consequence he has the potential to become a very powerful Jedi. I always understood his remark that "[he] will watch [his] career with great interest" not as an expression of pure interest, but as a promise to find out and possibly exploit his weaknesses - if he'd turn out to become the a powerful Jedi. So basically, I do not see this remark as an expression of "extreme foresight", but of his wickedness. I do agree, however, that he was amazing in creating situations that he'd be able to exploit for his plans, e.g., as you said, the siege of Naboo. I agree as well with your statement that he planned to make Anakin his apprentice over the course of the entire Clone Wars and to get rid of Dooku at the right moment.

In the end, this arc was pretty clearly all about Sidious manipulating the Jedi and especially Anakin. The show writers are not that clever; when Palpatine offhandedly says he thought the mission was Anakin's idea it's clearly just a parallel to EpIII when he says he thinks Anakin should go to Utapau. The CW does this kind of parallel all the time. It's Palpatine boosting Anakin's ego and making him distrust the Jedi, plain and simple.

Sidious knows that the Jedi distrust Anakin. What he does is to exploit this situation. Anakin is beginning to have doubts about Obi Wans motives. From here on and onwards, he can no longer be sure if Obi Wan really is his friend, if he really trusts him and if he in turn can be trusted; that's what the motto of the episode is about. Palpatine on the other hand emerges as a stable, a constant factor in Anakin's life, a factor that he can rely on with certainty. I do not think that this achievement should be understimated. I think that the writers are either implicitly or explicitly aware of this point.

I agree with Cloney, I think Sidious had the Order 66 plan from the start (since it was part of the clones' training) and was just waiting for Anakin to join him before he issued the order.

So, if he wasn't eager to get rid of Dooku or didn't think Anakin was ready yet, why would he take the risk of having the two confront each other? What if Anakin would have killed Dooku? What if Dooku won and got away with the chancellor? If all he wanted to do was to make Anakin envious, those outcomes wouldn't make any sense.

I think he was probably ready to set his plan into motion if Anakin would have killed Dooku at this point since there would have been no way back then either. He could have easily proceeded exactly the same way he did after they crashed the Invisible Hand in ROTS.

Well, afaik, Order 66 does not yet exist, so he cannot set it in motion at this point of time. That's quite a difference with regard to ROTS. Plus, to make setting the order in motion effective Sidious must be sure that as many Jedi as possible are fighting at the frontlines.

With regard to the possible outcomes you mention, I'd refer to what Clone O'Patra said in his post: I think we're supposed to believe Sidious is in complete control the entire time.

As I have said already, his whole plan is not just to make Anakin envious. Sidious is confronted with a future situation, the celebration on Naboo. The "crisis" serves his plans on different levels: he keeps the Jedi Council busy in order to protect him instead of spending the same ressources to find out who the second Sith Lord is; he strengthens his disguise as Chancellor Palpatine; he further weakens the Jedi Council since it has to worry about Anakin; he makes Anakin distrusting the Jedi Council and Obi Wan in particular, while he emerges as a stable factor in his life - and the crisis may have served other aims as well. So Sidious doesn't ask himself how he can make Anakin "envious". Instead, he is confronted with a situation and tries to exploit is for his goals.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Mr Man]

Sidius played the long game very well, but he must have been flexible in his plans or they would fail. I think though his final aim was to have Vader as his apprentice, he wouldn't say no to Tyranus if he had have beaten Ani at any point, I think his final plan for converting Ani had to wait until the Jedi where at their weakest and Dooku was definitely beaten.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Palpatine had extreme foresight. He manipulated a lot of things for a long time. A lot has been mentioned in the past few posts but don't forget that he also planned for a Clone Army. He was truly very patient and understood that he would have to wait patiently to achieve the power that he wanted.

[commanderneyo]

Preview clip for "Massacre":

[CaptainCRO]

Preview clip for "Massacre":

No Darth Maul

[General Magma]

No Darth Maul

Well, the episode that airs on the second of March is supposed to have him in it - the one that appears after 'Massacre'.

I remember reading this somewhere. I was hoping to see 'Massacre' this week, but oh well.

This preview was longer than usual previews.

~ General Magma

[commanderneyo]

Well, the episode that airs on the second of March is supposed to have him in it - the one that appears after 'Massacre'.

I remember reading this somewhere. I was hoping to see 'Massacre' this week, but oh well.

Maul will be in the episodes "Brothers" and "Revenge". After "Massacre" is "Bounty", which we don't know anything about. Some people are assuming this will be the episode Dengar will appear in, as Filoni stated Dengar is coming.

[Mr Man]

Preview clip for "Massacre":

I hope the episode is better than the preview makes it out to be .

I want Darth Maul .

[Brickadeer]

I hope the episode is better than the preview makes it out to be .

I want Darth Maul .

I like Ventress, so I'm looking forward to see how her story continues. I wonder if she'll be alone again if Dooku should kill the Nightsisters, or if the title "Massacre" refers to a different event.

[Fives]

I like Ventress, so I'm looking forward to see how her story continues. I wonder if she'll be alone again if Dooku should kill the Nightsisters, or if the title "Massacre" refers to a different event.

"Massacre" refers to Dooku sending an all-out droid attack on Dathomir, headed by Grievous.

[wesker]

I got a bad feeling Talzin won't be making it out of this episode alive.

[CaptainCRO]

I got a bad feeling Talzin won't be making it out of this episode alive.

I also have that feeling, but It's a good feeling.

[Fives]

I got a bad feeling Talzin won't be making it out of this episode alive.

I predict that the Nightsisters will be defeated, but Ventress will escape. Then, the next episode, "Bounty", will be about Ventress being hunted down by bounty hunters hired by Dooku. I have a feeling that Ventress's fate will be left open-ended, much like it is now, only Filoni will tackle it a different way.

[Fives]

Sorry for the double post, but I found a video about Darth Maul. Sam Witwer is voicing him.

http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/02/17/star-wars-clone-wars-reveal-darth-maul/

[Brickadeer]

Sorry for the double post, but I found a video about Darth Maul. Sam Witwer is voicing him.

http://geek-news.mtv.com/2012/02/17/star-wars-clone-wars-reveal-darth-maul/

Great find

After being left by the Nightsisters, her Jedi Master, and finally Count Dooku, I agree that loneliness is a recurring theme in Ventress's life. I was hoping that she'd finally make it back to the light side. Currently, I find her to be the most tragic figure of TCW.

[CaptainCRO]

Maul looked very calm in EP1 to me. He's totally different to me here.