Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Season 4 Discussion

[Brickdoctor]

Why would they be crushed be gravity? Are people crushed be gravity when underground (mines, tunnels, etc)?

The bird-whale dude claims that atmospheric pressure is so high, it could crush a spaceship. The atmosphere is held around the planet (as with any planet) by gravity. If you want more atmosphere, you need more gravity.

[LEGOman273]

The bird-whale dude claims that atmospheric pressure is so high, it could crush a spaceship. The atmosphere is held around the planet (as with any planet) by gravity. If you want more atmosphere, you need more gravity.

Perhaps he was refering to heavy (i.e. more dense) gases in the atmosphere.

[Brickdoctor]

Perhaps he was refering to heavy (i.e. more dense) gases in the atmosphere.

Then the air wouldn't be breathable. But I guess that goes back to my theory of the ginourmous life-support system. (which I still think is utterly ridiculous) Any way you try to explain it, there's still something that's ridiculous.

[LEGOman273]

Then the air wouldn't be breathable. But I guess that goes back to my theory of the ginourmous life-support system. (which I still think is utterly ridiculous) Any way you try to explain it, there's still something that's ridiculous.

The air on the surface may not have been. I still think that there could have been plants underground that would function as a self-sustaining life-support system.

[sok117]

Guys, we can try to comprehend the physics of the episode for hours on end and still not get anywhere with it. I mean, in a show where people can move things with their mind, aliens, and hyperspace travel, are we really nit-picking on the details? Just live with it.

Now to totally disagree with my original point, lets see what I thought about the episode.

I really liked the train action sequences and the cameras. Boba looked really cool as with all the bounty hunters save for the girl who was just stupid in my opinion. I get that they put her in just to equalize the gender ratio, but really? If your best weapon is a mechanical scarf, then there is definitely a problem! Another major nitpick that I had is that the box wasn't locked! Now the lock may have been cut during the action sequence which I may have over-looked, but if it didn't then thats a major plot-hole in my opinion. Other then that, I really liked this episode and I actually like Asajj as a character now which is really weird, I think she has grown the most which makes her really good overall!

[Brickadeer]

Another major nitpick that I had is that the box wasn't locked! Now the lock may have been cut during the action sequence which I may have over-looked, but if it didn't then thats a major plot-hole in my opinion. Other then that, I really liked this episode and I actually like Asajj as a character now which is really weird, I think she has grown the most which makes her really good overall!

The box was locked and could not be opened from the inside, but by pressing the white button located at the front side. During the struggle in the train, the box fell on the frontside. Thus, the button was "pressed" and the box opened.

Indeed, Ventress has become quite a character. Again, she has lost everything, and that makes her free to make her own choices. From the point she decided not to hand over the girl onwards, she is in control of each subsequent situation and of her emotions.

Ventress realizes that somehow, she has changed, which is inconsistent with the motto of the episode:

"Who we are never changes, wo we think we are does."

Until recently, "who she thought she was" was determined by the circumstances. Now, as these circumstances are gone, she is able to live up to her own rules:

She accepts her past and who she is, and she allows her emotion to control her action to some extend, to give it impuls and direction. But she doesn't allow that emotion to carry her away: she doesn't hand over the girl, but she wants to get paid for it, and she makes the rules: "You pay my price first, then you get the girl!" To the question of the brother, "how do I know that you don't take the credits, and then hand us over?", she simply replies: "You don't!"

In avoiding attachements that'd determine her actions, she is the opposite of Anakin, who cannot overcome his past and whose actions are determined by his past. He is never fully able to realize and to overcome the factors that determine his actions.

In this, Anakin and Ventress are different, and this difference is expressed in her final words: "Now, I have a future." Anakin, on the other hand, has none: Unlike Ventress, he cannot set his own course of action.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Oky]

Wrong, it fell on its back, and I highly doubt that it has an unlock button on the front and back. I'm pretty sure it was unlocked and just fell open, which bugged me quite a bit too, but I explain it by assuming that the Balugans are just complete morons. I mean, they let Asajj go with the money before even checking the contents of the chest, and the one who was on the train relied completely on the protection from the bounty hunters and didn't bother to wear any kind of armor or weapon. And despite being so unprotected, he was stupid enough to say "over my dead body". He really deserved to die.

[Brickadeer]

Wrong, it fell on its back, and I highly doubt that it has an unlock button on the front and back.

You're right. Well, I'd say that probably Boba hit the button

[Oky]

I guess that's possible, but they didn't show it, so I guess we'll never know.

EDIT: The bloggers review is now up.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Guys, we can try to comprehend the physics of the episode for hours on end and still not get anywhere with it. I mean, in a show where people can move things with their mind, aliens, and hyperspace travel, are we really nit-picking on the details? Just live with it.

...the Balugans are just complete morons. I mean, they let Asajj go with the money before even checking the contents of the chest, and the one who was on the train relied completely on the protection from the bounty hunters and didn't bother to wear any kind of armor or weapon. And despite being so unprotected, he was stupid enough to say "over my dead body". He really deserved to die.

In their defense, it was said that their King ruled with an iron fist. Maybe he didn't believe anyone would have the audacity to double cross him. Either way I knew Asajj was going to double cross them and I knew she was going to Boba in his place at some point.

[Brickadeer]

EDIT: The bloggers review is now up.

Hmm...that's what I'd call a summary of the plot and a little bit of interpretation:

“The story is about a girl that is forced to marry a man she doesn't love, and her brother who tries to rescue her from this destiny.

It turns out that Assajj Ventress, who recently became part of a band of bounty hunters, is the one to make the ultimate decision of the girl's future.

Ventress and the bounty hunters were hired by a henchman of the ruler of an unknown planet in order to protect the cargo of a train. It turned out that the cargo consisted of a girl that was stolen from her family and forced into a future that she didn’t choose, and that the attackers are lead by her brother who tries to get his sister back to her family.

Ventress is able to defend the cargo against the attackers and to capture their leader, the brother of the kidnapped girl.

The girl accuses Ventress of not knowing what it’s like to be ripped of her family, to being forced to live up to circumstances that were not chosen by herself.

Ventress realizes that the girl and herself are of the same kind, and that the girl’s future resembles Ventress’ past and present.

In the following events, Ventress is going to take control of the situation that she was forced into and that she is part of: she confronts Boba with what she determines to be a fair share of the bounty; since he doesn’t give in, she confronts him with the fact who is the true master of the situation and who she really is.

In the end, Ventress has changed: the bounty hunters stick to their role of bounty hunters without being able to reflect this role, its implications for their actions, and the question of personal control of the factors that determine who they are. Ventress on the other hand is not “that worse anymore”: she has realized what made her act like she acted and that she is able to control these conditions. That’s why she truly has a future, while the bounty hunters are determined by their past.”

I think you guys are too obsessed with details

Personally, I liked the episode a lot.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Peanuts]

I finally came to watch the episode, and it wasn't really good.

The setting was nothing original, I've seen similar at least 2-3 times before, can't remember which movies exactly. Doesn't matter anyway.

There was a distinct lack of plot. It was only introduction, battle, end. The battle itself had no climax and no turning point, degrading it to a long action scene. The bounty hunters killed soem ninja while being taken out one by one. Then suddenly all the ninja save for the leader are dead, while the leader himself throws the last two bounty hunters off the train. Then Ventress defeats the last ninja. No real turning point.

And they battle fails to build up tension, as it doesn't have a certain direction either. It's not like there's a certain amount of ninja shown, which would have to be defeated. No, the whole time more ninja show up, and then there's only one left. Nor is there a certain time until they'll finally reach their destination. So, teh battle has no direction where it's going. Nor is it a real stalemate situation, as the ninja keep making progress. It's simply a long action scene.

And of course the logical flaws. The gravitation has already been pointed out, but what them walking on and outside the train? I mean, with all the technology, they should be able to build maglevs fast enough so you can't walk on them.

And both the ninja and the others behave pretty stupid. Why not sabotage the rails? Or, after they've taken out Bossk in the engine room, sabotage the engine? And is the sister of the bandits' leader really worth the death of an army of ninja?

And the government was even more stupid:

If I'm a warlord ruling with iron fist and there's a train I don't want to be hijacked, do I leave the train to 6 hired mercs?

No, I'd send a platoon of my best men (or any other number, but at least more than one moron). And propably fill the box with explosives which blow the girl up if someone unauthorized tries to open the box.

And if I'm a warlord ruling with iron fist, I'd make sure any major who blabbers about it to strangers gets instantly executed.

And if I'm a warlord ruling with iron fist in a galactic war and there's only one access to my planet, I'd have some men guarding it, as well as turrets, blast doors and antispacecraft defense, which also prevent that anyone who's conned me manages to get off my planet like that. Not that I'd let anyone leave without checking the package.

On a positive note, I didn't expect that kind of package. The idea wasn't original, but I rather expected some biological weapon or something the likes of that. And Ventress got some character.

Anyway, I hope the next episode gets better.

[Brickadeer]

[rant]

If you don't like the show, don't watch it, or simply say that you don't like it. But please, don't say it "wasn't really good". I for myself think that what you wrote is pretty retarded, but I'm too polite to tell you because apparently, you think differently. Live and let live.

And maybe, only maybe, you should spend more time asking yourself why the episode was created precisely in the way it was created and not in the way you think it should have been created. That might help you to distinguish things that are important from things that are not important.

As for your praise of realism, I'd like to point out that Star Wars is a space opera. It was never meant to be realistic. It never cared about physics. So with introducing realism as a criteria to make judgements about the quality of the episode is to make judgements with regard to an arbitrary reference system: You could equally say that it was a poor episode because of it's clear lack of vampires, but you had to be equally aware of the fact that it never claimed to be a vampire story.

The same is true for what you think about the character's behaviours: apparently, what you think is totally irrelevant for what they did. Maybe you should keep in mind that Star Wars in general is about storytelling, and that the recent arc in particular was about Ventress' story. Saying that a booby trapped box (= dead girl) or a biological weapon (= no girl) would improve the story is pointless: in either case, there would have been no girl and no changed Ventress', which would be pointless as well since, as I said, this arc is about Ventress and nothing else.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Fives]

I wonder, after the most recent episode, is Ventress going to appear during the return of Maul. She is connected to Oppress, so he may come after her. I think it would be interesting if Maul and Ventress met. I know that their meeting would really not change the story that much, but it would be cool to see Ventress's reaction. I hope she is there. I could see her somehow inadvertently saving Obi-Wan's life, which would be cool, because they have always had this sort of connection and banter when they fight, which is great.

[sok117]

I for myself think that what you wrote is pretty retarded,

Okay...

but I'm too polite to tell you because apparently, you think differently.

Are you freaking kidding me?

[Oky]

In their defense, it was said that their King ruled with an iron fist. Maybe he didn't believe anyone would have the audacity to double cross him.

In the contrary: The harder he rules, the more he has to expect people to betray him. If he doesn't do that, then he's braver more foolish than I thought.

Hmm...that's what I'd call a summary of the plot and a little bit of interpretation: SNIP

Yes, that's indeed what you wrote, but what does this have to do with our review? And what's wrong with paying attention to detail? If you're not going to pay attention, what's the point in watching (and reviewing) at all?

If you don't like the show, don't watch it, or simply say that you don't like it. But please, don't say it "wasn't really good". I for myself think that what you wrote is pretty retarded, but I'm too polite to tell you because apparently, you think differently.

...and yet you said it...

Your conflicting insults aside, just because somebody disagrees with you doesn't give you the right to tell them what to do, especially based on an opinion based on a single episode. And it's really just that, his opinion. He never said the episode needed to be done differently, just that the way the story was executed could have been better. No need for such an attack.

I for one agree with Peanuts for the most part. The Balugans (very creative species name again by the way, CW team) were indeed pretty stupid and could have been portrayed better. And I didn't even think about the ease of the bounty hunters' escape, that's a good point. I guess by that point I had already accepted the fact that the Balugans are complete morons and wasn't surprised.

I could see her somehow inadvertently saving Obi-Wan's life, which would be cool, because they have always had this sort of connection and banter when they fight, which is great.

True, that would indeed be an interesting development.

[Brickadeer]

The Balugans (very creative species name again by the way, CW team) were indeed pretty stupid and could have been portrayed better.

Again, that is your opinion. You think that the displayed behaviour should have been different because it didn't match your standards of cleverness. Is there any factual evidence that applying these standards is a good strategy to understand and to evaluate events and characters in Star Wars? The opposite is the case:

Measured by the same standards not blasting the escape pod in ANH was stupid. It was terribly stupid. But I would not say that Star Wars would have become better if the officer in charge would have been smarter and simply ordered blasting the escape pod. I think in this case, the implications are clear.

Measured by the same standards not letting the Star Destroyers attack the rebel fleet in ROTJ was equally stupid. But I would not say that Star Wars would have become better if the Emperor would have been smarter and simply ordered blasting the rebel fleet away. It only would have made ending the story incredibly more difficult.

In stories, certain persons need to make mistakes simply because otherwise the story simpy ends. Applying common sense may tell you how you would have behaved if you were in the situation of the person you observed. But the fact that you would have behaved differently doesn't give you a clue why the writers let these characters act like they acted. Consequently, in order to understand what the writers did and to understand the story, you have to apply different standards. If you don't you're not dealing with the question how the story functioned, but how in your opinion it should have been. A review that has deserves it's name is concerned with what is, not with what ought be. And a review is more than just an arbitrary enumeration of equally arbitrary aspects. If you had ten seconds to tell someone what was important about the episode, would you say, "oh, it was a bad episode because it's physics was totally unrealistic, I mean really TOTALLY, and some characters behaved stupid!"? I hope not, since these are unimportant details: if you are threatened by a man with a gun you may not wish to point to the sky and say, "haha! Birds!", simply because it is a comparatively unimportant detail of the situation that might give you no clue for the question how to deal with the important aspects of the situation.

If you write a review and if you post a link to this review, I think it's safe to say that you want others to read your review. If I read a review I want to know what is important, what is special. I want to know what I missed. I don't want to be given the impression that some guys just need a platform to spread their opinions.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Brickadeer

[Oky]

Fair enough. I think we can all agree that there are a few stupidities in Star Wars.

I also agree that one shouldn't base one's opinion solely on such details, but they do take away from the experience. Note that I did give the episode a 3/5. Only one of the deducted points was for those illogicalities, the other was for the simple, unoriginal plot.

I believe we covered most of the important and special things in the episode along with the details in our review (I tried to anyway), so I don't know you're complaining about. And isn't it partly the point of a review to give your view of something? If you just want to hear the bare facts (the way you wrote them) I suggest you go to StarWars.com or Wookieepedia.

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

In the contrary: The harder he rules, the more he has to expect people to betray him. If he doesn't do that, then he's braver more foolish than I thought.

I would go with foolish. The fact that he didn't check the box before Asajj left shows me that he didn't think he would be betrayed. If he was expecting it, he would have looked inside knowing that betrayal was a possibility.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Sir_Basil_Ashton

[Peanuts]

If you don't like the show, don't watch it, or simply say that you don't like it. But please, don't say it "wasn't really good". I for myself think that what you wrote is pretty retarded, but I'm too polite to tell you because apparently, you think differently. Live and let live.

I never said I didn't like the show. But there are episodes which are better than others. In my opinion, this episode was not one of the better ones. Because, IMO, it wasn't really good. If you think differently, you've got the consitutional right to do and say so. But me as well.

As for your praise of realism, I'd like to point out that Star Wars is a space opera. It was never meant to be realistic. It never cared about physics. So with introducing realism as a criteria to make judgements about the quality of the episode is to make judgements with regard to an arbitrary reference system: You could equally say that it was a poor episode because of it's clear lack of vampires, but you had to be equally aware of the fact that it never claimed to be a vampire story.

Fair point. Okay, I'll disregard physical details. But I still there could have been better (less obviously physically faulty) reasons why they have to take the underground train.

The same is true for what you think about the character's behaviours: apparently, what you think is totally irrelevant for what they did. Maybe you should keep in mind that Star Wars in general is about storytelling, and that the recent arc in particular was about Ventress' story. Saying that a booby trapped box (= dead girl) or a biological weapon (= no girl) would improve the story is pointless: in either case, there would have been no girl and no changed Ventress', which would be pointless as well since, as I said, this arc is about Ventress and nothing else.

I never said that a biological weapon would improve the story. In fact, quite the opposite. The weapon was what I expected, and it's good to be surprised by a diffrent cargo. And you're right, dead girl would have been over the top. But there's no problem with a redshirt/traitorous platoon on board. Increases realism, action and maybe even storytelling, if done well.

Measured by the same standards not blasting the escape pod in ANH was stupid. It was terribly stupid. But I would not say that Star Wars would have become better if the officer in charge would have been smarter and simply ordered blasting the escape pod. I think in this case, the implications are clear.

Measured by the same standards not letting the Star Destroyers attack the rebel fleet in ROTJ was equally stupid. But I would not say that Star Wars would have become better if the Emperor would have been smarter and simply ordered blasting the rebel fleet away. It only would have made ending the story incredibly more difficult.

While there are some stupidities in Star Wars, and while these may stwo of them, those two are not as obvious as the Balugans' stupidity. I could argue why not blasting the escape pot might have made sense, and not attacking the fleet with the Destroyers was deliberately incorporated hubris of the emperor.

Point is, characters behaving suddenly OOCly stupid just to enhance storytelling is usually a sign of bad writing. Especially if that could have been avoided. And if two thirds of the episode consist of action, and the rest is intro/outro, there is not much space for character development either.

But as I said, there were some good points as well, but not as many as with some other episodes. I can tolerate stupidity to a certain extend, really. And I'm no scientist, so I don't care that much about physics (if they do it well, I won't even realize it). Regardless of how much I wrote before, my main problem was the missing plot.

I really don't dislike the show. I liked all the Mandalore episodes. I loved the Umbara arc. A lot of the older episodes were really good as well. The episode before this one was also okay. But there are episodes I don't like as much, like the recent one.

[Brickadeer]

While there are some stupidities in Star Wars, and while these may stwo of them, those two are not as obvious as the Balugans' stupidity. I could argue why not blasting the escape pot might have made sense, and not attacking the fleet with the Destroyers was deliberately incorporated hubris of the emperor.

Point is, characters behaving suddenly OOCly stupid just to enhance storytelling is usually a sign of bad writing. Especially if that could have been avoided. And if two thirds of the episode consist of action, and the rest is intro/outro, there is not much space for character development either.

But as I said, there were some good points as well, but not as many as with some other episodes. I can tolerate stupidity to a certain extend, really. And I'm no scientist, so I don't care that much about physics (if they do it well, I won't even realize it). Regardless of how much I wrote before, my main problem was the missing plot.

I have to agree that the Balugans didn't behave smart. Basically, their relevant attribute is "mass". But I'm not interpreting this as sign of bad writing.

Ventress could not defeat the Balugans with her fists. There were too many. That's why she drew her lightsabres. Now, she performed better, but there were still too many of them. After Dengar was thrown off the train, she used her force powers to get rid of the Balugans. That didn't work very well as well. She asked for help and Boskk was ordered to come, but he did not arrive since he was overwhelmed by the Balugans: Ventress was on her own, it was she and her powers agains an indefinite number of enemies.

In the beginning of the episode, Ventress tried to hide who and what she is: she lied when she said that the lightsabres were stolen. She said she had no name. She didn't use her force powers while Dengar was present. She let it happen that the Bounty Hunters forced her into a situation.

In order to prevail against the Balugans, she had to accept who she is. So I think the lesson she learned is that she may pretend to herself and to others that she is someone different, but she cannot lie so to say to the galaxy.

At least, the story can be read, it functions on this level of interpretation, and keeping the motto of the show in mind, I think it's a plausible one. So of course, the Balugans could have been designed more complex. But in keeping them simple and primarily defined by one attribute, it is easier to identify their function with regards to the development that Ventress goes through.

That's why I'm a bit reluctant to blame the writers of the show of bad story writing: until there is no better evidence, I'm tending to say "not guilty"

[commanderneyo]

Maul preview clip:

[Mr Man]

Maul preview clip:

[Sir_Basil_Ashton]

Just watched the new episode. I know it's a setup episode for the finale so hopefully it delivers the goods next week.

[Brickadeer]

Just watched the new episode. I know it's a setup episode for the finale so hopefully it delivers the goods next week.

I agree that Opress' quest for Maul is not particularly interesting or spectacular; I liked the final location, though. I don't believe that all the storylines can be given a satisfying solution in just 20 minutes, so I think that the finale might become the prelude to season 5.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Brickadeer