HISTORIC ACCURACY or FANTASY in LEGO's history lines ???

[Brick Miner]

recently in the Wild West thread we were discussing why the line failed, and if the handling of the politically sensitive "cowboys vs. indians" clich

[xwingyoda]

Hehe BM, you have the art of starting an AFOL rant :-D :-P

Okie I will just put it this way (at least for now :-P ): AFOLs prefer historic accuracy whereas kids and TLC prefer fictional liberty !!

Off course, fictional liberty = better kids playability (cata-bloody-pults >:-( ) = more sales = more

[Starwars4J]

It's really a close call. I mean unless the ship designs are going to be above and beyond anything that was made in the past, I believe ship design should be based more on historical accuracy, there's just some grand feeling to them. However just because ship designs are historical doesn't mean there can't be fantasy elements! Why not have a historical ship crewed by ghosts, or being invaded by mermaids and mermen?

There's no reason that fantasy and history can't exist hand-in-hand, IMO.

[Mister Phes]

this train of though was further fueled by the recent movie Pirate of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest. disney seems to have taken great fantasy liberties here, including squid and shark humanoids. this places the pirates of this movie far from the actual pirates of the 18th century in our history.

Have you seen the movie yet? I haven't (at the time of writing) but being rated PG-13 I'm fairly confidient Disney hasn't made the characters fantastical for the sake of censorship towards a younger audience. Remember Jack Sparrow, Mr Gibbs and crew are Pirates too but for the most part they're fairly normal. The movie is contemporary escapism, anything short of a documentary with reinactments has "romancised" the genre of pirates and therefore not an accurate historic reflection on what actually happened in the past.

I have heard that one of the reasons the pirate theme was canceled was "lack of new ideas for set design

[xwingyoda]

I think that fantasy & fictional liberty are two different things ;-)

On the first hand, fantasy represents all mythical aspects of stories with creatures, monsters, fairytales...

IU am totally for that. Like Phes wrote, it "keeps things interesting".

However, on the other hand, there is fictional liberty which is adding details to history likr viking catapults and what have you for the sake of pure playability (or

[Brick Miner]

I'm fairly confidient Disney hasn't made the characters fantastical for the sake of censorship towards a younger audience. Remember Jack Sparrow, Mr Gibbs and crew are Pirates too but for the most part they're fairly normal.

well, they are more fantasy then LEGO allowed, and that was my purpose in using them as an example. jack sparrow was an undead skeleton, and the black pearl was manned by undead, making it a kind of ghost ship. even more astounding, in the second movie davy jones is a squid-man with shark-henchmen.

the more fantasy you allow, the more possiblities you unravel. this includes set design, minifigs, etc...

thats all my point was there.

The movie is contemporary escapism, anything short of a documentary with reinactments has "romancised" the genre of pirates and therefore not an accurate historic reflection on what actually happened in the past.

I liked the LEGO themes just the way they were. Not much historical accuracy and a dash of fantasy thrown in to keep things interesting.

i would agree with all of this. as i think (for example) the Fright Knights were too much, however, having a dragon appear in a castle set is just right !!!

you know, this brings up a point about MOCs too. maybe its not LEGOs level of fantasy that is as interesting, as what people allow in there MOCs. i favor MOCs that are visually appealing and mentally intriguing on a creative level... rather than a historically accurate level.

I think that fantasy & fictional liberty are two different things

true. what caught my attention was fantasy. thanks for making a clarification there yoda !!!

[Berry Syedow]

Fanciful fluff with some historical backbone is just dandy. It’s when the sets are lame that I don’t care for fantasy as much. In conclusion, riding rampaging over-sized elephants with two story-long trunks into battle = Awesomest set of the year (Hannibal, Yeah!) Sticking wheels onto a horse and calling it a jousting tournament = not so awesome… (Where's the historical backbone, huh?)

Speaking of which, I've got a fanciful Viking Galley coming up soon, I just need to figure out where to fit the anchor...

EDIT:

Both are good; but more importantly, is the design and quality of the sets.

Very true, and in the end, if the set is gingerly designed most people won't care where the inspiration is rooted.

Knight's Kingdom and Knights' Kingdom are fine examples of two themes of opposition. Historical fiction vs. Fantasy. Both sub themes suffer from serious suckage however, needless to say.

[WesternOutlaw]

Both are good; but more importantly, is the design and quality of the sets.

[Norro]

Lego stayed away from ghosts/dragons and other non-realistic elements for a long time. You could argue that it was pirates which broke lego out of the historicaly accurate mode as they featured 'heroic' pirates a modern spin, whereas up until then castle had had several competing factions with nolabeled good or bad, town was town, and even space was just a series of competing forces...

God Bless,

Nathan

[snefroe]

i'm a bit confused about the question of the topic, honestly.

how do we sidestep the potential problem of ethnicity, racism, slavery that are so strongly associated with the WW time frame? how do we create a theme that is set out in the Far West, that's still commercialy very interesting for a Lego company to produce, that doesn't go down because of non-lego related issues, and without having to introduce mythology/fantasy/science fiction elements that would undermine the authenticity of the theme, pushing away the hardcore fans of the theme?

This matter reminds me of a Belgian comic book series called 'The Red Knight'. The series started out as a very classic tale of a lonesome knight on his travels in Western Europe. He took part in wars, defended cities, participated in tournements... stuuf like that. He became knight of King Arthur's army at around album 40 and more and more typically medieval elements slipped into the albums: monsters, wizards,... 10 albums later, the entire series had changed into a classic fight between good versus evil. From that point on, science fiction just took over. UFO's, submarines, zombies, robots,... they all showed up at one point in the series... But still, the series sold very well and is still extremely popular among kids. The author very often indicated that he just had to take new paths on a regular basis, look for something new to keep his fans satisfied. They just don't read 100 books based on the same story but with different names... Lego is faced with exactly the same public: young boys from 10-15 years old constantly looking for new stories, new things. If we, the older fans, don't like it, then that's too bad... A fanbase is like a snake's skin: it changes with every new season, you either adapt, or get lost...

i wouldn't think WW is lost as a theme. that reminds me of yet another belgian comic: Bessy. The series is set in the time frame of the European migration of the 19 th century. 100000's of people change the old continent for the New World. andy and his dog Bessy also go to the West, sometimes on behalf of a German or british society to map new territories or whatever, to be a guide for others,... He meets all sorts of tribes and people in the process. Basically, it's a Johny Thunder in the Far West... all Lego has to do is to add some playability stuff, a decent back story and sure, why not a ghost town?

In any case, I wouldn't say that the classic themes are historically accurate, quite the contrary, even.

Vikings didn't have horns, their ships didn't have these mythical heads, they didn't carry swords on board,...

Classic Castle doesn't even mention THE most important element of the Middle Ages: the Church and religion, nor does it give much attention to medieval cities or civilians. It's just a classic story of two armies fighting each other or a Robin Hood kinda thing with some medieval elements here and there...

Pirates, on the other hand, is a classic Hollywood story: the bad guy in real life has become the good and popular guy of the theme. Nothing accurate there...

city stories aren't very historically accurate either. a police subtheme always comes down to the same basis: a criminal escapes and needs to be taken in again... g... is that all the police does in real life? hope not...

In reality, what lego does is exactly what other cultural producers do: they take a classic story, a bunch of stereotypes, like: robbers steal from the good guys, the good guys go after them; or the other way around : the cool looking criminal steals from the corrupt government and defeats his armies because he's so very smart... The only thing that's different, is the historical time frame they're putting it in: Space, City, Pirates, Wild West,...

the mythical element that slips into these themes is only a way to make it more interesting, a way to attract new people who are interested in new things. If you think about it, actually, any sailor of the pirate time frame would think the lego pirate theme would be far more accurate if there's a ghost ship or a seamonster in it, these things were after all, part of their world...

[Mister Phes]

I am totally for that. Like Phes wrote, it "keeps things interesting".

But not too much fantasy, just a little like adding a spice or herb to give that extra little kick... Knights Kingdom II = too much. However, I don't think the Fright Knights are that bad, it was mainly the set designs that were lacking

well, they are more fantasy then LEGO allowed, and that was my purpose in using them as an example. jack sparrow was an undead skeleton, and the black pearl was manned by undead, making it a kind of ghost ship. even more astounding, in the second movie davy jones is a squid-man with shark-henchmen.

Yes, the Pirates of the Caribbean movies have far more fantasy than Pirate LEGO ever had. But what you're not taking into account is the first of these movies wasn't released until 6 years after Pirate LEGO had disappeared. Think how much movies have changed since the early 90's with the advances of visual effects and how this has influenced fantasy in film and television. These days there is far more fantasy giving children greater exposure to it and therefore they're more acustomed to seeing it in genres that it wasn't common to see fantasy in the main stream. That's not to say it wasn't there, it just wasn't popular at the time.

the more fantasy you allow, the more possiblities you unravel. this includes set design, minifigs, etc...

thats all my point was there.

And a good point it is! But I don't think the world was ready for a combination of pirates and fantasy to a degree as high as it today (for reasons I just mentioned) so The LEGO Company may not have even considered these possibilities.

[WesternOutlaw]

how do we sidestep the potential problem of ethnicity, racism, slavery that are so strongly associated with the WW time frame? how do we create a theme that is set out in the Far West, that's still commercialy very interesting for a Lego company to produce, that doesn't go down because of non-lego related issues, and without having to introduce mythology/fantasy/science fiction elements that would undermine the authenticity of the theme, pushing away the hardcore fans of the theme?

I think that this point is another discussion entirely (and disagree with the association). You're getting in to politics. History is plagued with all of what you mention above (in many Lego themes) if that's what you want to focus on.

I understand Brick Miner's question to mean, "which would you rather see, historic sets or fantasy"? Like with the Castle theme, would you rather see a castle based on a real-life castle, or a fantasy castle with dragons and monsters? This is my understanding of Brick Miner's question. The same applying to all Lego themes as a whole.

[snefroe]

how do we sidestep the potential problem of ethnicity, racism, slavery that are so strongly associated with the WW time frame? how do we create a theme that is set out in the Far West, that's still commercialy very interesting for a Lego company to produce, that doesn't go down because of non-lego related issues, and without having to introduce mythology/fantasy/science fiction elements that would undermine the authenticity of the theme, pushing away the hardcore fans of the theme?

I think that this point is another discussion entirely (and disagree with the association). You're getting in to politics. History is plagued with all of what you mention above (in many Lego themes) if that's what you want to focus on.

I understand Brick Miner's question to mean, "which would you rather see, historic sets or fantasy"? Like with the Castle theme, would you rather see a castle based on a real-life castle, or a fantasy castle with dragons and monsters? This is my understanding of Brick Miner's question. The same applying to all Lego themes as a whole.

oh no i think his line of reasoning is this:

suppose there is an historical theme that's being squashed because some people find some negative connotations in there, would it be possible to get one component out of that, demining the theme' in the process' and replace that component with a mythical element, pushing it even further away from any onther minefield of history. would you, as a fan accept that or not?

[WesternOutlaw]

People will always find negative connotations in just about everything, Lego themes included. I'm not in to "sugar-coating" things in an effort to be politically correct. I hold the same true of Lego themes, and do not think that masking historic representations with fantasy is necessary, but I'm an adult.

At the same time, toys needs to be age specific though. For older children, a historic battle scene may be fine (cowboys/indians, crusades, revolution, civil war, etc.). For younger children, smiling mini-figs and fantasy might be more appropriate. There needs to be some discretion of who Lego plans to market the theme to.

In my opinion, I don't mind seeing either as an adult collector, but what's more important to me, is the detail and quality of the set. I like both equally and don't mind fantasy in the least if the mythical creatures, or sets are well designed.

[snefroe]

People will always find negative connotations in just about everything, Lego themes included. I'm not in to "sugar-coating" things in an effort to be politically correct. I hold the same true of Lego themes, and do not think that masking historic representations with fantasy is necessary, but I'm an adult.

At the same time, toys needs to be age specific though. For older children, a historic battle scene may be fine (cowboys/indians, crusades, revolution, civil war, etc.). For younger children, smiling mini-figs and fantasy might be more appropriate. There needs to be some discretion of who Lego plans to market the theme to.

In my opinion, I don't mind seeing either as an adult collector, but what's more important to me, is the detail and quality of the set. I like both equally and don't mind fantasy in the least if the mythical creatures, or sets are well designed.

well my theory is that the negative connotations crushed WW. i don't think that other themes were abandoned for the same type of arguments...

[WesternOutlaw]

Wild West was not popular because children are no longer interested in westerns. There was a time when western movies and television shows were very popular (at least in the US). Little Timmy did not decide NOT to buy Sheriff's Lock-Up because of the "negative connotations" that you say WW represented. He and many other children have no idea of the history surrounding the WW. I'd bet money on it. In fact; to be honest with you, I never heard that WW was associated with what you mentioned above. WW was a time in US history when gold was drawing people to the western United States. With it came gold towns, outlaws, and cowboys (to name a few).

[snefroe]

Wild West was not popular because children are no longer interested in westerns. There was a time when western movies and television shows were very popular (at least in the US). Little Timmy did not decide NOT to buy Sheriff's Lock-Up because of the "negative connotations" that you say WW represented. He and many other children have no idea of the history surrounding the WW. I'd bet money on it. In fact; to be honest with you, I never heard that WW was associated with what you mentioned above. WW was a time in US history when gold was drawing people to the western United States. With it came gold towns, outlaws, and cowboys (to name a few).

nono i'm saying Lego decided to drop it because of bad connotations...

[Brick Miner]

oh no i think his line of reasoning is this:

suppose there is an historical theme that's being squashed because some people find some negative connotations in there, would it be possible to get one component out of that, demining the theme' in the process' and replace that component with a mythical element, pushing it even further away from any onther minefield of history. would you, as a fan accept that or not?

now we have a dupicate thread about the WW !!! the current discussion could have continued right off the other thread... if anything, that wasn't my intention or "line of reasoning"... i felt like we had beaten that horse to death, and it was time to move on from "why the WW was canceled" !!!

i guess i might have over explained myself, and what "line of reasoning" lead me to my ultimate question (and purpose of this thread).

i really wanted to explore how much fantasy people allowed (and like) in their LEGO creations, before it became too far fetched !!! it really had nothing to do with the WW in particular, no more than castle, adventuers, pirates and vikings.

the current discussion is suited more for the pervious thread, in which this one was inspired. when i wrote this one, i knew there could be many tangent topics, which is why i made the ultimate topic of the thread in very large text. i guess, im still learing a thing-or-two about a sucessful mind-bending post.

however, i don't think we need to get past this WW delima to answer the question, and openly discuss about the topic of this thread...

"which would you rather see, historic sets or fantasy"?

- BrickMiner

[Mister Phes]

Wild West was not popular because children are no longer interested in westerns. There was a time when western movies and television shows were very popular (at least in the US). Little Timmy did not decide NOT to buy Sheriff's Lock-Up because of the "negative connotations" that you say WW represented. He and many other children have no idea of the history surrounding the WW. I'd bet money on it. In fact; to be honest with you, I never heard that WW was associated with what you mentioned above. WW was a time in US history when gold was drawing people to the western United States. With it came gold towns, outlaws, and cowboys (to name a few).

nono i'm saying Lego decided to drop it because of bad connotations...

Now I know the real reason The LEGO Company decided to discontinue the Pirate LEGO theme... It was because of the negative connotations associated with the unspeakable crimes against humanity the conquistadors committed. The Imperial Armada sub-theme was the biggest mistake The LEGO Company ever made because it made them feel terrible and they realised they couldn't continue depicting these atrocities in such a light hearted fashion.

If only they'd introduced a squid man sub-theme instead...

[Brick Miner]

This matter reminds me of a Belgian comic book series called 'The Red Knight'. The series started out as a very classic tale of a lonesome knight on his travels in Western Europe. He took part in wars, defended cities, participated in tournements... stuuf like that. He became knight of King Arthur's army at around album 40 and more and more typically medieval elements slipped into the albums: monsters, wizards,... 10 albums later, the entire series had changed into a classic fight between good versus evil. From that point on, science fiction just took over. UFO's, submarines, zombies, robots,... they all showed up at one point in the series... But still, the series sold very well and is still extremely popular among kids. The author very often indicated that he just had to take new paths on a regular basis, look for something new to keep his fans satisfied. They just don't read 100 books based on the same story but with different names... Lego is faced with exactly the same public: young boys from 10-15 years old constantly looking for new stories, new things. If we, the older fans, don't like it, then that's too bad... A fanbase is like a snake's skin: it changes with every new season, you either adapt, or get lost...

i wouldn't think WW is lost as a theme. that reminds me of yet another belgian comic: Bessy. The series is set in the time frame of the European migration of the 19 th century. 100000's of people change the old continent for the New World. andy and his dog Bessy also go to the West, sometimes on behalf of a German or british society to map new territories or whatever, to be a guide for others,... He meets all sorts of tribes and people in the process. Basically, it's a Johny Thunder in the Far West... all Lego has to do is to add some playability stuff, a decent back story and sure, why not a ghost town?

In any case, I wouldn't say that the classic themes are historically accurate, quite the contrary, even.

Vikings didn't have horns, their ships didn't have these mythical heads, they didn't carry swords on board,...

Classic Castle doesn't even mention THE most important element of the Middle Ages: the Church and religion, nor does it give much attention to medieval cities or civilians. It's just a classic story of two armies fighting each other or a Robin Hood kinda thing with some medieval elements here and there...

Pirates, on the other hand, is a classic Hollywood story: the bad guy in real life has become the good and popular guy of the theme. Nothing accurate there...

city stories aren't very historically accurate either. a police subtheme always comes down to the same basis: a criminal escapes and needs to be taken in again... g... is that all the police does in real life? hope not...

In reality, what lego does is exactly what other cultural producers do: they take a classic story, a bunch of stereotypes, like: robbers steal from the good guys, the good guys go after them; or the other way around : the cool looking criminal steals from the corrupt government and defeats his armies because he's so very smart... The only thing that's different, is the historical time frame they're putting it in: Space, City, Pirates, Wild West,...

the mythical element that slips into these themes is only a way to make it more interesting, a way to attract new people who are interested in new things. If you think about it, actually, any sailor of the pirate time frame would think the lego pirate theme would be far more accurate if there's a ghost ship or a seamonster in it, these things were after all, part of their world...

you bring up some awesome points in this post snefore !!! i love hearing about the comics overseas !!! although im well versed in amerian comicbook culture, i admit to knowing nothing about the foreign books.

the story about the Red Knight is of particular interest. the progression of the series from realism to far-fetch-fantasy this is almost what i have been observing. i guess. i mean, i wasn't even consious of it at first, but it seems to make sense.

LEGO started out with more accurate castle history lines (as Norror mentioned), then saw more fantasy as pirates were introduced... then both series mustered up more fantasy when dragons and skull islands were introduced. finally, classic castle ended somewhere near frightknights. LEGO saw the same progression as the Red Knight comic series did. its most evident in the castle theme.

the comic book writer had no where left to take the series but to fantasy... interesting.

although you avoided the topic of the thread, great post snefore !!!

this is the kind of discussion i love,... enlightenment - BrickMiner

[Hobbes]

i really wanted to explore how much fantasy people allowed (and like) in their LEGO creations, before it became too far fetched !!!

For me it's pretty easy:

Classic Castle: *y*

Knigths Kingdom: *n*

CC is the only theme I had sets of, KK never interested me.

As for WW, there's really not much room for fantasy. Except if you don't have it, as I wrote about once in this post (small note at the end)...

[Mister Phes]

Is "History accuracy" the right term for this intended discussion? Like Count Sneffy said: LEGO themes have never been historically accurate, rather they draw inspiration from stereotypes of that genre. Or put another way, they are a "romanticised" version of history.

"Romanticised" was a word which became popular after Robert Louis Stevenson released Treasure island, as it was used to describe the fictional reality contained within the story. The story was obviously not an accurate depiction of history, yet it didn't stray so far as to be described as "fantasy".

So maybe the thread should be called "Romanticism or Fantasy in LEGO's history lines ???" :-D

[Brick Miner]

well, the way i was looking at it was graphically... i was picturing a horizontal line, with a slider (note: im a very visual person). on one side of the line was "historical accuracy" and on the other side was "fantasy."

i was gauging were my slider fell. not near the middle... mine is more toward the fantasy side...

if your slider is somewhere near "romanticism" (by the way, i've always loved that term, but don't use it much, as a lot of americans think im talking about LOVE when i do) then maybe your closer to the middle, where the two meet !!!

- BrickMiner

[Mister Phes]

Going by your "slider" visualisation it appears The LEGO Company only ever started near the middle and occassionally worked their way towards the fantasy end. I don't think LEGO in its current state can steer any closer to "non fiction" without increasing the detail of its pieces and introducing far more specialized pieces to produce a realistic result in its sets. If this was the case then LEGO would be closer to MegaBloks Pyrates and Dragon sets and I don't particularly like that idea.

[Athos]

I really don't care either way, as long as the sets are well designed. It is nice to have a few fantasy elements, but I really don't mind either way.

Steve