S@H Shenanigans

[fred67]

A couple of months ago I realized that MMV and Emerald Night were coming to the end of their product life cycles, and anticipated a great clearance sale that I would miss, as I always do, finding out about it way too late. So I wrote a script on my computer that monitors the LEGO Sales page and sends me an email: a) if an item is added, b) if an item is removed, and c) if the availability or price of the item changes. It polls every few minutes.

Count Dookus Solar Sailer and the tracks both definitely interest me at those prices... too bad they were NEVER available at those prices. As you can see, the "change" is that these are "new items", not "availability changed."

I realize they have it automated and that they leave it up in "sold out" status for some time instead of just dropping the item completely, but it's just annoying... from what I recall, the tracks have been sold out for some time.

EDIT:

Edited April 28, 2011 by fred67

[davee123]

Count Dookus Solar Sailer and the tracks both definitely interest me at those prices... too bad they were NEVER available at those prices. As you can see, the "change" is that these are "new items", not "availability changed."

Just to clarify-- are you saying that the items were never available at the original price? Or that they were never available at the sale price? I can see the problem with saying "New Item", but I don't understand your complaint about the prices?

DaveE

[Follows Closely]

They where available for a very short time at that new price. You need to improve your script my friend.

[fred67]

They where available for a very short time at that new price. You need to improve your script my friend.

You know what? I'm not going to get confrontational.... I don't know about Dooku's ship, but the tracks were sold out for quite some time (since it was the end of availability for curved tracks).

I know it's the case, others know it's the case, and the fact that those two items are completely removed from S@H (less than an hour after they were posted for sale) indicates to me the website operators knew it was a mistake, too. Most items linger in "sold out" status for some time before being removed.

If you're implying they were on the sales page already... I know for a fact this is not the case, script or not, because I check occasionally anyway.

Edited April 28, 2011 by fred67

[simonjedi]

What are you actually trying to say here? It sounds like it's a fault with your script rather than S@H

[davee123]

Define "very short time?"

How are you checking? Are you just downloading the "sales/deals" page? I recall when I polled their site for top sellers, they basically were only updated hourly (with some exceptions). It could be that they get put "on sale", but they don't get added to the "sales/deals" page immediately. Could be that they build up the sale/deal page based on a cache, and you won't see it in real time.

I contend they were never listed on the sales page at the sales price while available. The availability never went from "available" to "call" to "sold out," it was posted as "sold out" right off the bat.

I'm not sure I see a problem with that, other than the fact that it's actually listed on the "sale" page. That's annoying for customers-- seeing something they can't buy. But you could make the argument that it's all part of a sales campaign whereby people are encouraged to check back frequently, since they can see what they may have missed out on.

Also, keep in mind that you're probably pulling the page for your country's availability. When I set up my script, I noticed that other countries had different things going on. If (say) the "sale" price gets generated across multiple countries, then each country's prices may get updated, even though the availability obviously won't get updated.

Edit: and because they complete removed the items immediately (less than an hour), I also suggest they know about the problem. Even more, I'm certain the tracks have been sold out for some time.

The removed which items from where? From the whole site? Or from the sales/deals page?

DaveE

Edited April 28, 2011 by davee123

[dhaas06]

You know what? I'm not going to get confrontational.... I don't know about Dooku's ship, but the tracks were sold out for quite some time (since it was the end of availability for curved tracks).

I know it's the case, others know it's the case, and the fact that those two items are completely removed from S@H (less than an hour after they were posted for sale) indicates to me the website operators knew it was a mistake, too. Most items linger in "sold out" status for some time before being removed.

If you're implying they were on the sales page already... I know for a fact this is not the case, script or not, because I check occasionally anyway.

I'm pretty sure this was no mistake. Suppose those sets were thought to be sold out long ago, removed from the site, and then recently rediscovered during a warehouse inventory update or collected from returns. Then a very small number were added back to the sale page, sold out in a matter of minutes, and are now gone again. Under this unique and limited circumstance, your script may not be telling you the whole story.

If you really need proof, call S@H and ask what happened.

[fred67]

The removed which items from where? From the whole site? Or from the sales/deals page?

Completely... they were posted to the sales page even though the availability was "sold out," in less than an hour they were completely removed from the site.

I don't have a problem with things on the sales page being "sold out," I have a problem with things being posted on that page being "sold out" from the very beginning.

I'm pretty sure this was no mistake. Suppose those sets were thought to be sold out long ago, removed from the site, and then recently rediscovered during a warehouse inventory update or collected from returns. Then a very small number were added back to the sale page, sold out in a matter of minutes, and are now gone again. Under this unique and limited circumstance, your script may not be telling you the whole story.

If you really need proof, call S@H and ask what happened.

I find it hard to believe that it went to sold out in less than five minutes after being posted; and even if that was the case, the items tend to be there for days (sometimes weeks) before they are completely removed... these were removed entirely from the site in less than an hour.

I don't have to call... it's just annoying. I don't mind missing out on sales if I'm late, it just bothers me that a company would post something that's not available on their sales page... I do not believe for a minute that enough people were sitting there waiting for these items to go on sale, refreshing their browsers every few seconds, and managed to place so many orders that they sold out in less than five minutes without even going through "call for availability."

I believe it was an honest mistake they made.

Edited April 28, 2011 by fred67

[davee123]

I don't have a problem with things on the sales page being "sold out," I have a problem with things being posted on that page being "sold out" from the very beginning.

I guess I'm torn-- I don't really like the idea that you'd list ANYTHING on a sale page that you didn't actually HAVE for sale (assuming that you knew you didn't have it). I don't really care whether or not you ever actually had it in stock or not.

Realistically, I understand from a technical perspective-- it makes perfect sense. Item #1234 is listed as being "on sale" for countries X, Y, and Z, regardless of the fact that only country Z has them in stock. And some time later, they say "You know what? We should remove item #1234 entirely." Makes sense to me.

The other thing to note is that stock is variable. At the drop of a hat, they might discover a secret stash buried in the back, or they might get a returned shipment, or receive overstock from Brand Retail. Who knows? So the website really doesn't mesh well with the inventory. Basically, the way to interpret it is "If we happen to have this item in stock, here's the price we'll sell it to you at".

That last bit is the thing that makes me tolerate it. I can see from their perspective that if there was a chance that your inventory would fluctuate on a given item (IE, sold out today, maybe in stock tomorrow), you would still want to keep the sale price in front of your customers, even if they couldn't buy it at that price. Effectively, keep them interested in buying, in case you get it in stock.

DaveE

[dhaas06]

Well 7752 was listed as available long enough for a Toys N Bricks member to start a thread for it, and the second reply seems to be proof that it wasn't "sold out" initially, since they were able to get it in the cart at least, only to have it be sold out during checkout. Here is the thread, but you have to log in to TNB to see it.

If the quantity were tiny, such as 20 or less, then I can see it not even going to "call for availability". They would still have to put it back online to sell them, but I bet their web staff programmed this one to switch to "sold out" right after the number was hit, since there would be an exact count from the start and 20 units or less doesn't leave enough room for error (which is what the "call for availability" is for, where the last couple remaining from a huge number are hand-counted by the warehouse staff).

Also, if the web staff knew these items would be gone very fast, then I could see them waiting for the sets to go and then promptly removing them from the site so that more people don't see them and get disappointed. I assume other items sit "sold out" for days because the staff has moved on and isn't even monitoring the sales section regularly.

I do agree that it is annoying, whether any were actually sold or not, so I don't differ with you there. Just providing a different way of looking at it.

[fred67]

Well 7752 was listed as available long enough for a Toys N Bricks member to start a thread for it, and the second reply seems to be proof that it wasn't "sold out" initially, since they were able to get it in the cart at least, only to have it be sold out during checkout.

Well... I don't think that proves anything. If someone was able to actually buy one, that might be interesting... but as fast as it all happened, it was probably more of a timing issue between different backend parts of the website.

If the quantity were tiny, such as 20 or less, then I can see it not even going to "call for availability".

Actually, IMO, I'd think it go straight to "call for availability" at that point, sale or not, and if they only had a handful left I don't understand why they'd feel the need to put it on sale anyway, as it would be bound to sell out sooner than later... moreover, but if they only had a few left and still felt the need to get rid of them quickly, they wouldn't go straight to 50% off (generally speaking).

Let me say this - it's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that my script ran both after the item was added and after it sold out. It polls every five minutes.... more frequently would be getting silly. But just think about it for a minute - that would mean that, without advanced notice that this was going on sale, enough people checked out the sales page after it was added, and actually checked out, in less than five minutes. Really, what seems more likely? I've also noted that 7896 (the tracks) had been sold out for some time, AFAIR. Is it possible they got some back? I think that would be very doubtful after all this time that the new track packs were being sold.

I don't want to make a bigger fuss about it... I think it was a mistake, and I think they knew it was a mistake and that's why they pulled it. I don't know why so many people are LEGO apologists... I love LEGO, but they make mistakes on their website, that's just the way it is:

[AndyC]

It's possible it was a mistake, it's equally possible that a couple of them came in as returns and were just stuck up on the website with a big discount to quickly get rid of them because nobody wants to keep the last couple of a dead SKU sitting around. And, depending on how the site is built, it's equally possible that they may have been available for longer than the 5 minute intervals you poll if the contents of the sales page is not updated instantly. It may of only taken a few customers checking out the 'trains' page to have sold the items before the cached sales page was invalidated.

Whatever the case, I very much doubt it was some malicious attempt to look like they sell items cheaper than they do, it just doesn't make sense to do that with end of life products.

[papa jedi]

Good work fred I have seen this also,in the sale around christmas, some star wars sets that had been sold out for weeks suddenly became available for the sale.But alas sold out immediately

Its very fishy,why hold back a few sets(if any) for the sales?

I dont believe that they happen to stumble on a few lost boxes of stock either.

Shenanigans indeed.

[fred67]

Good work fred I have seen this also,in the sale around christmas, some star wars sets that had been sold out for weeks suddenly became available for the sale.But alas sold out immediately

Its very fishy,why hold back a few sets(if any) for the sales?

I dont believe that they happen to stumble on a few lost boxes of stock either.

Shenanigans indeed.

Again this morning (4:50am, so I'm guessing there weren't a bunch of Easter bunny shoppers furiously refreshing the page waiting for these to go on sale).

I saw that at Christmas time, too.

I'm not accusing them of being malicious (otherwise I would have used stronger language than "shenanigans"), I just think their automated system should know better than to put sold out items on the sales page.

[davee123]

I dont believe that they happen to stumble on a few lost boxes of stock either.

That's been proven to happen, actually. Back in maybe 2001 LEGO told us that they happened to find a hidden stash of 5184's and 5059's in their warehouse in the UK. We were told we could call and order them (if we happened to live in the UK, I think?), and you can believe they sold out pretty quickly when they opened THAT floodgate.

if they only had a few left and still felt the need to get rid of them quickly, they wouldn't go straight to 50% off (generally speaking).

That's not typically how sales work in retail at least. That's how sales work at "Mom & Pop" stores, but at a larger company they typically come down from above. The marketing group puts them on sale, and all the stores selling them have to mark them down, regardless of their current stock or how well they've been selling in their particular store.

For instance, if the Solar Sailer were down to a quantity of 20 in the USA S@H stock, sold out in Australia, but still had 1000 units in the UK, I don't think they'd just cut the price in the UK and leave it alone elsewhere. My guess is they'd cut the price EVERYWHERE all at once, regardless of the particular circumstances in your particular area.

Of course, you could check that by having your script call for all their available countries and seeing whether or not the availability changes in each one.

But having just looked at their website, it makes perfect sense-- they say right there on the page:

"Sale products may also be available in a LEGO® Store near you. Find a store now!"

So, there's the proof of the pudding. They may not be for sale on the LEGO website, but the same sale prices apply to LEGO retail stores too.

DaveE

[fred67]

So, there's the proof of the pudding. They may not be for sale on the LEGO website, but the same sale prices apply to LEGO retail stores too.

DaveE

Not really... if they were still available in stores, they wouldn't have been completely removed from the website, sales page or not. That's why items linger on the website in "sold out" status, but those two items were eliminated entirely in less than an hour after being posted to the sales page.

Again, I'm not saying it's malicious, I'm saying the software should know better.

[davee123]

Not really... if they were still available in stores, they wouldn't have been completely removed from the website, sales page or not.

Why not? We were at a LEGO store on Wednesday night, and they were still in stock (I'll bet they're still there). They probably takes them off the site because they're sold out via S@H and they also don't want to advertise them on the web any more. Seems simple enough to me.

As for how long they're on the website for, I don't see why that's an issue? Does it matter whether they're on the website for 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days at the sale price? As long as what they're saying isn't erroneous, I don't think I have a problem with it.

From a technical standpoint, it sounds like they have something automated in place to propagate through their systems. And it takes so-many-minutes to flow through the various automated jobs they have and get through various caches and databases. The price update comes through first, and the fact that it should get removed comes through second.

DaveE

[roamingstop]

My understanding after discussions with various operators...

Items are often dispatched from a central warehouse; for multiple countries. So whilst one country can sell out, another will not (in allocated stock numbers). Thus an item can be listed on sale in 'Europe', sold out in Austria, and still available at that price in Germany (for a short while).

I regularly see different sales in different countries for the same items, and that further complicates the system.

Finally, the website (S@H) does not reflect the prices and quantities which are actually available on TLG's actual internal purchasing system which operators have access to. So an item could be listed on sale on their internal system, perhaps for a few days, but the S@H database takes time to synchronise itself; so could easily go from 'avaible' to 'discount' to 'sold out' within one resynchronisation.

Edited April 29, 2011 by roamingstudio

[fred67]

Why not? We were at a LEGO store on Wednesday night, and they were still in stock (I'll bet they're still there). They probably takes them off the site because they're sold out via S@H and they also don't want to advertise them on the web any more. Seems simple enough to me.

DaveE

Except those were the only items they did that with... I've been monitoring the site for a couple of months, nothing else (until today) appeared on the sales page already with a status of sold out.

Now, if they want to advertise it at a reduced price while it's sold out at S@H, but still available in stores (which makes sense, which is what I got from your first post), then that would be a great explanation... but they completely removed the items from the site in less than an hour. Not just removed from the sales page, but the links to those item pages no longer work... and yet here you are saying you can still buy it at the LEGO Store.

That is not usual for LEGO.... usually items linger in sold out status for some time.

[davee123]

but they completely removed the items from the site in less than an hour. Not just removed from the sales page, but the links to those item pages no longer work... and yet here you are saying you can still buy it at the LEGO Store.

That is not usual for LEGO.... usually items linger in sold out status for some time.

I assume there are reasons for that, probably human ones-- but I'm still not sure why it's a problem? Offhand, I would guess that since it's both seasonal and sold out from S@H, they'll remove it. If it weren't a seasonal item, it wouldn't look so out of place on their website, and might continue to want to advertise it (even if sold out). Similarly, if it were stale enough, they might decide to get it off the website as well.

I dunno, we can probably come up with a dozen reasons why LEGO might have wanted to take it off their page, but I guess I can't really fault them for the website's behavior. Seems OK to me!

DaveE

[Ogre]

You know what? I'm not going to get confrontational.... I don't know about Dooku's ship, but the tracks were sold out for quite some time (since it was the end of availability for curved tracks).

I know it's the case, others know it's the case, and the fact that those two items are completely removed from S@H (less than an hour after they were posted for sale) indicates to me the website operators knew it was a mistake, too. Most items linger in "sold out" status for some time before being removed.

If you're implying they were on the sales page already... I know for a fact this is not the case, script or not, because I check occasionally anyway.

I've checked the 'sales and deals' page many times (often, multiple times in an HOUR) and have seen 'sale' items suddenly appear, listed as 'sold out'...and I know QUITE WELL that they NEVER hit that 'sale' page as 'available'.

I don't know what's up with that but, it really irks me...especially when it's for an item that hasn't been available for some time (and yes, I've witnessed that, too...so, no, it's not just you fred67).