Technic Transition Talk

[Siegfried]

Edit: I do think there should be some sort of index for MOCs. Indexes don't really have drawbacks in my opinion, except them costing time to maintain.

I personally have decided to never do any work on a MOC index ever again. It takes too much time, time that I could be spending making my own MOCs....

If you get too many MOC topics, then a natural split for a subforum could be "this MOC took me less than an hour to create", "I don't know how to resize pictures", "unfocused pictures are the best pictures", "My horse built this" or similar non-theme specific quantifiers.

Yeah, I do agree, but what give the us the right to decide what is a good MOC and what is not? Many MOCs that I think are horrid others like... and vice versa. Even picking on bad presentation can and has caused trouble in the past. Afterall, badly presented MOCs aren't always lame MOCs.

But that isn't the only problem with a MOC forum; as I said, not everyone likes the idea. For example with the Brick Flicks & Comics forum and the Minifig Customisation Workshop we find that often people would rather post in the specific theme for one reason or another. It isn't just a case of breaking the rules...

But that's why I'm asking these questions, and I'm getting some great replies. To be honest I'm considering ditching the whole subforum plan... Moving with that plan with the votes at about 20-40% would be one thing, but it's approaching 50%.

[legolijntje]

Edit: I do think there should be some sort of index for MOCs. Indexes don't really have drawbacks in my opinion, except them costing time to maintain.

I think I can do (and want, if other people want) something like this, but it will take some time.

One advantage; I'll see some good moc's

But what do other people think about an moc index?

[AndyC]

I don't think a MOC forum would work. Many MOCs posted on EB are for the more popular themes and it would then be harder to find Technic MOCs... although DLuders would give them a run for their money.

Actually I was just meaning within Technic/Mindstorms/Model Team, though I notice now that wasn't quite what was originally suggested. On reflection though, I'd want MOCs to be the main focus, that is why we're on a forum in the first place after all. And I'm not sure you could really break MOC presentations apart from technique discussion. Hmmm, this is probably why I don't run forums, too indecisive.

[roamingstop]

Is there a way to add 'tags' to the forum posts? That might solve many issues; allowing people to customise their view depending upon the tags (or keywords in the subheading?). One issue I can see if that people would start using their own tags, spelling mistakes etc... so perhaps a generalised list of tags maintained by the forum / theme master - who can also be PM'ed if there is a specific tag you feel the need to add.

First and easy ones would be tags like

ModelTeam, TechnicClassic, TechnicStudless, Mindstorms, PowerFunctions, MOC, MOD, Review...

Then perhaps secondary

Vehicle, Construction, Flight, Engine, Transmission, Gearing, TechniqueQuestion, PartQuestion, ModelQuestion, DLudersFind

(im sure others could add generic ones which are still meaningful).

Such tags would not split the forum up - it would enable everything to stay more or less as is, and traditional view for most people, but if you wanted to quickly find something the tags would help, and reduce the need for an index of MOC's or Reviews?...

A few more $$ worth, I need to save for Bricklink!

[Blakbird]

For me personally, if all MOCs were grouped together in one forum then I wouldn't look at it any more. There are too many other categories of MOCs that I don't care about, and I wouldn't have time to go through all of them just to find the occasional Technic MOC.

[Lasse D]

Adding tags as described above is a great idea. It will solve the problem of browsing MOCs or reviews, while maintaining the current structure of EB, which has evolved nicely IMO.

If one made a Technic MOC, the tags "Technic" and "MOC" would be fitting.

[grepin]

Tags would be a great addition to the forums, but I suppose that goes beyond the scope of this topic, since it would affect all the other forums as well and requires changes to the site code.

I personally have decided to never do any work on a MOC index ever again. It takes too much time, time that I could be spending making my own MOCs....

Well, legolijntje has already volunteered, and if other people are willing to help, you wouldn't have much work to do. I'm not volunteering, by the way

[Siegfried]

Is there a way to add 'tags' to the forum posts?

Not as yet... but I have plans! I do agree that this would be a good solution.

For me personally, if all MOCs were grouped together in one forum then I wouldn't look at it any more. There are too many other categories of MOCs that I don't care about, and I wouldn't have time to go through all of them just to find the occasional Technic MOC.

I think many feel this way.

Well, legolijntje has already volunteered, and if other people are willing to help, you wouldn't have much work to do. I'm not volunteering, by the way

legolijntje had already mentioned this to me... but to be blunt I/we receive a lot of help offers, and most don't end up being finished or happening at all. It's not surprising and I never feel bad towards the member, but these days I don't count on the work being done until it's done.

[dhc6twinotter]

To be honest, I really like the layout as is. I'm not very fond of placing all MOCs together. That would be too confusing and too difficult to find anything, unless there was a way to easily sort by theme.

For the time being, I think we should keep Technic and Model Team together. In my opinion, there isn't very much traffic in either category to warrant a split. That being said though, some of the MOCs I've seen in the Technic forum seem like they would be better placed in a Creater forum. Perhaps we could break it down into something simple like does the vehicle have working steering? If so, it goes in Technic. If not, it goes in Creator. When I browse the Technic forum, I'm more interested in the mechanical aspects of a model. If there isn't anything mechanical, I'm not really that interested (with a few exceptions).

I do think the Technic forum could use more front page coverage. Since I've been a member, I have only seen two MOCs from this forum listed on the front page. To be frank, I've seen some MOCs from other themes that really didn't seem deserving of front page status, but yet amazing builds like Seriel's Tow Truck never made it. More exposure on the front page may offer more exposure to the Technic forum as well.

Just my $.02 on that.

[Ralph_S]

<snip>

For the time being, I think we should keep Technic and Model Team together. In my opinion, there isn't very much traffic in either category to warrant a split. That being said though, some of the MOCs I've seen in the Technic forum seem like they would be better placed in a Creater forum. Perhaps we could break it down into something simple like does the vehicle have working steering? If so, it goes in Technic. If not, it goes in Creator. When I browse the Technic forum, I'm more interested in the mechanical aspects of a model. If there isn't anything mechanical, I'm not really that interested (with a few exceptions).

<snip>

The distinction between steering and non-steering seems a bit arbitrary. Where do you put a Model Team helicopter? Does the steering mechanism have to be connected to the steering wheel? Is my Scania Wrecker Model Team, but my otherwise rather similar DAF truck not because the former has IR remote control and the latter doesn't?

Cheers,

Ralph

Edited May 18, 2011 by Ralph_S

[Paul B Technic]

The distinction between steering and non-steering seems a bit arbitrary. Where do you put a Model Team helicopter? Does the steering mechanism have to be connected to the steering wheel? Is my Scania Wrecker Model Team, but my otherwise rather similar DAF truck not because the former has IR remote control and the latter doesn't?

Cheers,

Ralph

Maybe working steering or some other "Technic" based function.

[roamingstop]

Not as yet... but I have plans! I do agree that this would be a good solution.

This would be great, but as mentioned a temporary stop gap would be a list of code words which could appear in the sub heading.

[dhc6twinotter]

The distinction between steering and non-steering seems a bit arbitrary. Where do you put a Model Team helicopter? Does the steering mechanism have to be connected to the steering wheel? Is my Scania Wrecker Model Team, but my otherwise rather similar DAF truck not because the former has IR remote control and the latter doesn't?

Cheers,

Ralph

Wow...both those trucks are awesome! I haven't seen either one of those before.

My suggestion for working steering to differentiate Model Team from Creator comes from my observation of what Lego has done in their own model designs. From what I can tell, every Model Team vehicle has had working steering. Some models have a knob on the roof, and other models have a working steering wheel. With the introduction of Power Functions, I think PF would be considered in this category as well. To my knowledge, none of the Creator sets have working steering. This would be an easy way to differentiate between Model Team and Creator.

In the case of a helicopter, or anything else besides a vehicle, I could see how there may be thin line between Model Team and Creator. I don't really have a good answer to that. I don't think any of the Model Team helicopters sold by Lego had crank operated rotors, so there isn't really anything mechanical in any of those models.

So, I can see how my suggestion in my last post may be hard to implement; and, while I think it would be nice to separate Creator from Model Team, it would be more confusing than it's worth. I really don't have a problem with things as is, and I would be perfectly happy if the Technic forum stayed as is. More front page coverage would be nice though.

Just my $.02.

Edited May 19, 2011 by dhc6twinotter

[Ricecracker]

I just thought I'd duck my head in here quickly. I don't build any Technic or Model Team MOCs, but I do appreciate them, and the other aspects these themes bring to the hobby as a whole. I think this forum is great as it is now. Splitting it into sub-forums would just make it more difficult to navigate.

...To my knowledge, none of the Creator sets have working steering. This would be an easy way to differentiate between Model Team and Creator.

Offroad Power, for one, has working steering. Additionally, I've included steering in my SYSTEM trucks, but they obviously don't belong here. Just being the devil's advocate.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Ricecracker

[rgbrown]

The distinction between steering and non-steering seems a bit arbitrary. Where do you put a Model Team helicopter? Does the steering mechanism have to be connected to the steering wheel? Is my Scania Wrecker Model Team, but my otherwise rather similar DAF truck not because the former has IR remote control and the latter doesn't?

I think the distinction is pretty clear in the official sets - Technic models focus on technical functions and use primarily technic bricks or liftarms, Model Team / Creator focus on realistic appearance, using mostly system pieces. With MOCs it's a different story, because many builders aim to achieve both. So you can't split the categories. I regard many MOCs as both Technic and Model Team / Creator (e.g. Sariel's various models).

+1 for a EB overhaul with user-supplied tags. It's the way forward. And search functionality that lets you search more often than once every blue moon without flood control biting you. Time to modernise!

Edited May 19, 2011 by rgbrown

[AndyC]

I think the distinction is pretty clear in the official sets - Technic models focus on technical functions and use primarily technic bricks or liftarms, Model Team / Creator focus on realistic appearance, using mostly system pieces.

Sets like 4958 Monster Dino fly in the face of that definition. It's Creator but actually has more Technic style building than many actual Technic sets. Creator sets are really about encouraging MOCing, much like old Universal sets were.

[Ralph_S]

Wow...both those trucks are awesome! I haven't seen either one of those before.

Thanks. At least one of them was front paged BTW

My suggestion for working steering to differentiate Model Team from Creator comes from my observation of what Lego has done in their own model designs. From what I can tell, every Model Team vehicle has had working steering. Some models have a knob on the roof, and other models have a working steering wheel. With the introduction of Power Functions, I think PF would be considered in this category as well. To my knowledge, none of the Creator sets have working steering. This would be an easy way to differentiate between Model Team and Creator.

In the case of a helicopter, or anything else besides a vehicle, I could see how there may be thin line between Model Team and Creator. I don't really have a good answer to that. I don't think any of the Model Team helicopters sold by Lego had crank operated rotors, so there isn't really anything mechanical in any of those models.

There's been a discussion on this on EB before. It's hard to distinguish some Creator sets from Model Team by looking at the built model. There have been creator sets with steering. One of the early creator sets included a model of a red helicopter on which the rotors turned of squeezed the aft section of the fuselage repeatedly, using a very clever Technic mechanism and some rubber bands.

I think the distinction is pretty clear in the official sets - Technic models focus on technical functions and use primarily technic bricks or liftarms, Model Team / Creator focus on realistic appearance, using mostly system pieces. With MOCs it's a different story, because many builders aim to achieve both. So you can't split the categories. I regard many MOCs as both Technic and Model Team / Creator (e.g. Sariel's various models).

+1 for a EB overhaul with user-supplied tags. It's the way forward. And search functionality that lets you search more often than once every blue moon without flood control biting you. Time to modernise!

I think the distinction between Technic and Model Team isn't generally that hard. Model Team is more geared towards looks with some functionality and tends to use many system elements, while for Technic the functionality is King. What is hard is the distinction between Model Team and some (but certainly not all) Creator sets.

Sets like 4958 Monster Dino fly in the face of that definition. It's Creator but actually has more Technic style building than many actual Technic sets. Creator sets are really about encouraging MOCing, much like old Universal sets were.

I normally don't give a toss about what theme my models might fit into. However, EB basically forces me to choose a theme if I want to post a MOC and Model Team is probably the label that fits many of them best. I used to love Model Team as a child, I had many of the sets, and my style of building was undoubtedly influenced by the sets. I don't see them as Creator models, because Creator is a hodgepodge of all kinds of things. Creator is more an idea than a particular type of model: they're sets designed purposely designed with parts palettes specifically aimed at build many different things with the same set. It's obvious that the Creator Dragon or Offroad Power is a rather different thing than the Apple Tree House, but both are sold as Creator. The Dragon could easily be considered a Technic model. Offroad Power could easily have been a Model Team kit. The Apple Tree House is more City than anything else.

I think that all things considered, keeping the forum very much the way it is right now is the best thing to do. I've been adding both MOC and Model Team to the titles of topics that I've started here for a few months now.

Cheers,

Ralph

[Siegfried]

I think that all things considered, keeping the forum very much the way it is right now is the best thing to do.

I agree. I have no intention of experimenting with subforums in the short term after this poll. I'll keep thinking about this though...

[RockeTeK]

I am willing to help for moderating or indexing etc

[Pauger]

I would definitely like to see a split forum. I disagree with those that say that it's not necessary due to low traffic. There is a lot of spam topics and simple questions. It's especially a problem if you want to find old topics, as the search system is useless in most cases.

My proposal for different sections:

- MOCs

- Set reviews

- Questions/FAQ

- General discussion/news

[Siegfried]

I would definitely like to see a split forum. I disagree with those that say that it's not necessary due to low traffic. There is a lot of spam topics and simple questions. It's especially a problem if you want to find old topics, as the search system is useless in most cases.

I agree. The problem with search is you often need to know the right question to get the answer. I'm still for doing the experiment, but I'll delay it. My plan was to move the technical questions to a sub forum, starting with the oldest. I'd them merge along the way. Thus this would not affect much the people who don't want this done, and at the same time it's bring to light some old conversations.

But I'll probably do this in a few months now; I have enough other work to do on EB anyway...

[Plastic Nurak]

Subforums - Techniques and MOCS

IMO a index that covers other topics is needed

Themes - no change (maybe some advanced Creator models as #5893 could be reviewed here)

Moderation - no changes

IMportance - it's an important part

[Paul Boratko]

I really didn't think there was a need to split or divide the forum because of the very low traffic, but then I began noticing that when a Model Team/Creator type of model thread is made, mainly the only people that seem to comment on it are other people that build in the Model Team/Creator theme... So you guys are probably correct that maybe a split or subforums need to be made...

[CP5670]

I was one of the people who originally pushed for having a combined Technic/MT forum a few years ago, but I do see the arguments on both sides of this. Thread tags would definitely improve the situation here.

I like both Technic and MT and look at MOC threads from both themes. I'm a lot more likely to see MT models if they appear here instead of the Special Themes category, which I rarely venture into. The two themes had a shared lineage to some extent and there was a time when most of the top Technic MOCs were in fact Technic/MT hybrids that would fit equally well in either theme. Although this seems to be less common today with a lot more "pure" Technic models being built.