Will LEGO Technic helicopters ever fly?

[mrblue]

well, I know someone, who got injured with model aircrafts, and is not a kid. accidents happen everyday and to everyone!

my point is not that heli models are dangerous or company A have better lawyers than company B, I'm just saying that lego has never been into adult oriented toys like those we are talking about. ok, 14/16 years old people can (and they should know how to) play with this kind of toys, but how much would cost a lego heli tht can fly? with the same price you can buy many of the "classic" one.

so: why should lego get into a path that has never been into? that involve also some techs that "can be" (not "are") dangerous if not used in the correct way?

if I didn't get this topic in the wrong way, we are not talking about micro heli (like 10/20cm), but heli of the size of at least 60+ cm to be able to have some details like we are used with "standard" lego bricks.

usually, it's better to prevent than to fix late, and can you imagine the impact to the mass of a news saying "kid injured playing with lego"? it reminds me of the movie ghostbusters, when the marsh mallow monster is evoked: and the sentence is "I thought about something of my childhood that couldn't hurt anyone".

have a nice lego day

mrBlue

Edited June 19, 2011 by mrblue

[grindinggears]

Then all other companies manufacturing wide range of flying helis for kids (usually recommended above age of 12-14) ceratinly have much better lawyers than LEGO. Because they can survive despite masses of decapitated kids by rotor blades... Seriously: can anybody attach at least 1 link about serious injury caused by micro-helis?

You can't make a micro-heli out of Lego bricks. You need special parts which are as light as possible, just read sariel's posts to get an idea how heavy lego bricks are and how light a micro-heli which isn't too dangerous must be.

The biggest concern I have when building a Lego helicopter (probably with custom motors) is the rotor. Just think of the huge centrifugal forces occuring there and when you hit anything the rotor will transform to a mass of bricks flying through your room with the speed of a bullet. You really think this will be safe?

Better talk about boats: What do you think about an accurately modelled hull that isn't waterproof but contains vast amounts of balloons, styrofoam, ping pong balls, etc. Such a ship would look good when exhibited but also would be able to float on water. It could be motorized if you place all electrical components above the waterline.

Edited June 18, 2011 by grindinggears

[Alasdair Ryan]

i dont know anything about rc heli's but would takeing a moter out of a rc kit and sticking it in to a lego copter work?, yes you would need a big powerfull moter

Edited June 18, 2011 by Alasdair Ryan

[gjpauler]

You can't make a micro-heli out of Lego bricks. You need special parts which are as light as possible, just read sariel's posts to get an idea how heavy lego bricks are and how light a micro-heli which isn't too dangerous must be.

The biggest concern I have when building a Lego helicopter (probably with custom motors) is the rotor. Just think of the huge centrifugal forces occuring there and when you hit anything the rotor will transform to a mass of bricks flying through your room with the speed of a bullet. You really think this will be safe?

Better talk about boats: What do you think about an accurately modelled hull that isn't waterproof but contains vast amounts of balloons, styrofoam, ping pong balls, etc. Such a ship would look good when exhibited but also would be able to float on water. It could be motorized if you place all electrical components above the waterline.

1. In earlier posts we already cleared that flyable micro helis would require downsizing current Technic part into at least 1:4. That would mean a completely new product line LEGO would not jump into.

2. About making non-floatable hulls floatable: When I rebuilt my corvette from 102cm hull made by BanBao, I had the idea of filling the hollow space inside with self-expanding isolator polystirol foam can be purchased in any DIY shop. Finally I did not make it. Why? Floating is one thing, stability is another. Classic lego bricks even in minifig scale are pretty heavy even for upperworks of ships resulting hard topweight problems. If I were a LEGO develepoer how I would solve it (assuming that marketing and sales guys would not block me):

- Floatable hull made of 4-5 stepped sized sections with 1.4-1.6 m total lenght, which can be embedded into each other when packaged like flowerpots, resulting 0.5m box size

- Bow section should have a replaceable nose keel, enabling to make clipper bow (basic setting), vertical bow (like Titanic), bolbous bow (Modern freighters), ram bow (ironclad battleships)

- Stern section should have 2 propeller shaft exits sealed with simmerings, and a detachable aft hub allowing to build both flat or rounded stern

- I would cheat a little bit with beam/chord ratio. At most seagoing sigs it is from 1:8-1:10, but I would make it beamier 1:5-1:6. It improves stability and as LEGO ships usually do not have to make several thousand nautical miles in your bathtube, increased drag is not a really big problem

- Also cheat a little bit with draft/beam ratio. In the reality it is 1:3 to 1:5 enabling ships to pass shalow water. I would increase draft to 1:2 or even more

- I would use a watertight flat rack for A type batteries as ballast in middle section to set optimal draft for stability: 4 A batteries would be connected serially to make 6V in 1 row, and several rows of batteries in rack would be connected parallel. This way you can increase decrease ballast weight with quarduples of A batteries to get optimal settings. For longitudinal stability, you could move the battery rack on keel forward and backward

- Battery rack should have a circuit breaker to shut off all electricity if electric system gets soaked

- All sections should have 3 plugs (2 at sides and 1 at bottom): pulling them out, leak can be simulated

With this variable hull, you could build wide range of modern commercial/navy ships using classic lego bricks as upperwork

I think this would be a solution of your problem, not styrofoam or ping-pong balls

[Silcantar]

Back in the late 70s, Lego did make a floating modular hull, like the one in 316 "Fire Fighting Launch". I could certainly see something like that coming back. That particular hull wouldn't be particularly useful for building anything but microscale ships because it's so narrow (although you can extend the length indefinitely), unless you were building a catamaran/trimaran, in which case it could be highly useful. There's also 7075 "Captain Redbeard's Pirate Ship", which appears to have a similar, but considerably larger hull design. There's also some very big floating single-unit hulls, like this one.

[Splat]

Better talk about boats: What do you think about an accurately modelled hull that isn't waterproof but contains vast amounts of balloons, styrofoam, ping pong balls, etc. Such a ship would look good when exhibited but also would be able to float on water. It could be motorized if you place all electrical components above the waterline.

This made me think of someone sitting there squashing those small bean-bag polystyrene balls into each of the empty holes in Technic beams to aid flotation.

Most of the Lego boats that have been released that were designed to float came with a weight to help with the stability when in water (rather than using battery packs).

Eg. Boat Weight 2 x 6 x 2 or Boat Keel Weighted 8 x 2 x 4

@gjpauler: I know it probably seems that most people aren't very receptive to your ideas, and I can see that you obviously have a passion for helicopters (and boats) and want to combine this with your passion for Lego, but building a micro helicopter would require a lot of new pieces and materials that Lego doesn't currently produce (as well as all of the weight, modularity, and legal/safety issues), so Lego might not be really to go there... yet. Lego is still primarily a kids toy, and kids don't have the same passion for all the technical details of a real working helicopter as you do. They just want something that they can 'swoosh' around.

[gjpauler]

This made me think of someone sitting there squashing those small bean-bag polystyrene balls into each of the empty holes in Technic beams to aid flotation.

Most of the Lego boats that have been released that were designed to float came with a weight to help with the stability when in water (rather than using battery packs).

Eg. Boat Weight 2 x 6 x 2 or Boat Keel Weighted 8 x 2 x 4

@gjpauler: I know it probably seems that most people aren't very receptive to your ideas, and I can see that you obviously have a passion for helicopters (and boats) and want to combine this with your passion for Lego, but building a micro helicopter would require a lot of new pieces and materials that Lego doesn't currently produce (as well as all of the weight, modularity, and legal/safety issues), so Lego might not be really to go there... yet. Lego is still primarily a kids toy, and kids don't have the same passion for all the technical details of a real working helicopter as you do. They just want something that they can 'swoosh' around.

1. Very serious counterweight. Can it be more than 50 grams?

2. Simple LEGO for simple kids? I hope my kids will be little more complicated... Anyway, market will decide: if Chinese competition will knock out LEGO in those product lines within some years, then I had the right, otherwise all other LEGO fans.

[gjpauler]

Back in the late 70s, Lego did make a floating modular hull, like the one in 316 "Fire Fighting Launch". I could certainly see something like that coming back. That particular hull wouldn't be particularly useful for building anything but microscale ships because it's so narrow (although you can extend the length indefinitely), unless you were building a catamaran/trimaran, in which case it could be highly useful. There's also 7075 "Captain Redbeard's Pirate Ship", which appears to have a similar, but considerably larger hull design. There's also some very big floating single-unit hulls, like this one.

1. 316-type hull was pretty nice, I loved as a kid (if you put there enough ballast in that), just this is the rescue boat in minifig scale, not the ship...

2. 7075 seems to have one piece hull. Are you sure?

3. Very big is 78cm long. Considering 1:36 minifig scale, it would be around 27m long in reality. Thats is reasonable size for tugboats, but tragically small for any sea-going ship, even strongly downsized. A large modular floating hull with suitable ballast is definitely missing from LEGO product lines. Also, it would be an excellent business for LEGO pulling out more money from peoples pocket:

- I would sell the hull with minimal, light upperworks, without power functions (just with propellers and shafts) to keep it reasonably priced, to trap the guy

- I would sell inflatable basin as separate accessory

- I would sell power functions as separate accessory: battery rack at keel would play as ballast for heavier upperworks

- I would sell extra middle hull section modules as separate accessory for those whoever want to make longer ships

- This would also generate sales for basic bricks as increasing hull size will dramatically increase material requirement, but bigger upperworks are much more spectacular

- I would organize a web-competition for rendering historic ships to motivate builders

- I would ease on LEGO policy "no actual war macinery" a little bit, because battleships are the most spectacular LEGO ships ever. As current modern warships start to resemble floating black coffins because of stealth technology (think about USS Independence class), I would let issuing sets until end of 1970s battleships (eg. AEGIS-cruisers like USS Vincennes, etc.) as they are already historic and will phased out from active service very soon.

[Sokratesz]

Floating sounds much more reasonable than flying - it could even be integrated with PF but it would require a watertight batterybox and PF receiver I reckon, can't trust the kids to keep those out of the water :)

- Sok.

[grindinggears]

- Floatable hull made of 4-5 stepped sized sections with 1.4-1.6 m total lenght, which can be embedded into each other when packaged like flowerpots, resulting 0.5m box size

- Stern section should have 2 propeller shaft exits sealed with simmerings, and a detachable aft hub allowing to build both flat or rounded stern

- I would use a watertight flat rack for A type batteries as ballast in middle section to set optimal draft for stability: 4 A batteries would be connected serially to make 6V in 1 row, and several rows of batteries in rack would be connected parallel. This way you can increase decrease ballast weight with quarduples of A batteries to get optimal settings. For longitudinal stability, you could move the battery rack on keel forward and backward

- Battery rack should have a circuit breaker to shut off all electricity if electric system gets soaked

With this variable hull, you could build wide range of modern commercial/navy ships using classic lego bricks as upperwork

Thanks for the response gjpauler, a modular water-tight hull is an inspiring idea. I didn't know that LEGO has already produced something like this before but maybe it's time for them to face a more advanced approach.

I have picked the most interesting features of your concept in the quote above. Let me explain how I look at them from the perspective of a Technic fan:

• I want to make motorized ships which are remote controlled so what I need is a good protection of the electrical parts from water. So it would be best if the hull modules have a top plate and thus form a watertight box when connected to a hull. Maybe you can even make a motorized submarine with this concept...
  
• We need maximum stability, so there has to be heavy ballast in the keel section. Integrating one or two battery boxes in the keel sounds nice but maybe we need even more weight.
  
• For Technic purposes the ships don't need to be longer than 60cm and I could live with a simple design that doesn't look too realistic.
  
• Most important are the propeller shafts. They would be sooo great. Lego should also include some technic holes on the outside of the hull so we can build custom propeller layouts
  

We will see if LEGO has some interest in this idea. They could make a set with a simple modular hull with some nice upperwork and we could later elongate it and use the internal space of the hull sections for motorization. Another thing that we need for this to happen is Radio control of the PF components to not lose the signal in the middle of a pond.

[gjpauler]

Thanks for the response gjpauler, a modular water-tight hull is an inspiring idea. I didn't know that LEGO has already produced something like this before but maybe it's time for them to face a more advanced approach.

I have picked the most interesting features of your concept in the quote above. Let me explain how I look at them from the perspective of a Technic fan:

• I want to make motorized ships which are remote controlled so what I need is a good protection of the electrical parts from water. So it would be best if the hull modules have a top plate and thus form a watertight box when connected to a hull. Maybe you can even make a motorized submarine with this concept...
  
• We need maximum stability, so there has to be heavy ballast in the keel section. Integrating one or two battery boxes in the keel sounds nice but maybe we need even more weight.
  
• For Technic purposes the ships don't need to be longer than 60cm and I could live with a simple design that doesn't look too realistic.
  
• Most important are the propeller shafts. They would be sooo great. Lego should also include some technic holes on the outside of the hull so we can build custom propeller layouts
  

We will see if LEGO has some interest in this idea. They could make a set with a simple modular hull with some nice upperwork and we could later elongate it and use the internal space of the hull sections for motorization. Another thing that we need for this to happen is Radio control of the PF components to not lose the signal in the middle of a pond.

Dear Grindinggears,

Thanks for the reply. I have the following comments on your concept:

1. Yes, batteries may not be enough ballast weight for large and deep draft hulls. We can think about a stuff as ballast being:

- cheap

- heavy

- worldwide standard in size and weight

- accessible in any DIY store

- has multiple smaller units to adjust ballast gradually

- flat to bring Center of gravity as low as possible

- can be fixed on hull section bottom to prevent sliding

Maybe, plaster fillup of section bottom can work as large ballast: vailable everywhere packaged as powder, its non-toxic and it needs only water, when filled and dried it sticks to polypropilene parts of LEGO, but not too strong

2. Current LEGO PF motors has fair protection against spilling water, but electric connector parts are not. They should introduce some water-resistant connector boxes and cable plugs

3. I disagree with your "make the whole hull strictly watertight to prevent short circuit"-concept. Why? Its expensive and ineffective:

- Real watertight stuff, which resists not just spilling water, but some water pressure (eg. pressure of 0.1-0.3m of water, which is 0.01-0.03 bar) require rubber or silicone sealing rings AND screws or VERY STRONG clips and cannot be made with usual LEGO polypropilene mold parts

- Some perverse guys would like to sink the enemies RC ship in a battle, so hulls should be opened to water anyway

- At battleships, it would be hard and expensive to solve water resistant sealing of rotating gun turret platforms (gun turrets usually intrude downwards into hull through decks)

So my concept is get prepared that electric system WILL BE SOAKED ANYWAY. I would place a main circuit breaker in the watertight, pressure resistant and sealed battery rack, and 3-4 circuit breakers defending most important subsystems (engines, RC, lighting, gun turret servos). All other electric components would be only spill resistant, but not pressure resistant, so they can be cheaper.

4. About propeller shaft outlet on hull: a regular tecnic hole cannot be sealed to resist water pressure, especially using regular technic axises. The outlet should be a self contained unit screwed into hull wall, being diassemble for normal user and containing:

- short piece of polished metal shaft (similar to old LEGO wheel axises) with regular technic shaft extenders at both ends

- on the metal shaft, there should be a silicone simmering, whose compression can be adjusted by a bolt (fixed by contra bolt) as function of its wear.

- From shaft outlet, separate extarnal shaft would run to the propeller, and separate internal shaft to the engine

- I would place 3 shaft outlets in aft hull section: it is enough for most historic ships (some battleships had 5 or 4 shafts, but this simplification would be usually underwater and nobody would notice it)

5. I would not intend LEGO ships for open water, just in pools. LEGO - even with the proposals above - is not a level of technology suitable for open water - sooner or later it would be nice and expensive gift for the fishes...

Rescuing ships with dead battery or RC from a pool - if you do not want to get wet - is the easiest with another RC ship, if there are some standardized rescue clamps on hulls to tow each other