Studless vs. Studful

[DLuders]

Folks, please remember that Eurobricks is supposed to be "Uniting Lego Fans Around the World." There is too much "flaming" going on in this topic. Can't we all agree that there are MANY DIFFERENT ways of enjoying Lego Technic?

This topic has been hijacked from being a simple question (about how to learn about studless building techniques) to a "Coke vs. Pepsi", "Chevy vs. Ford" type argument.

@ Phantom59: Nazgarot's useful LDD template of Lego Technic parts (pictured below) can be downloaded from his Brickshelf gallery.

Edited July 16, 2011 by DLuders

[timslegos]

This topic has been hijacked from being a simple question (about how to learn about studless building techniques) to a "Coke vs. Pepsi", "Chevy vs. Ford" type argument.

ya thats true it is getting a little heated, sorry i didn't mean to start a flame war!

tim

Edited July 16, 2011 by timr

[Sokratesz]

Everything stated here is complete nonsense on about 10 different levels.

It's all opinions, like I mentioned on the first page.

- Sok.

[Phantom59]

@ Phantom59: Nazgarot's useful LDD template of Lego Technic parts (pictured below) can be downloaded from his Brickshelf gallery.

many thanks

[Moz]

For the types of models I build, there is no way possible that studless construction would hold up under the stresses and pressures put I on them. Without the plate/beam connections the booms on my cranes would buckle.

I find that I can get reasonable strength/weight ratios with studless, but they seem to be stronger in tension than compression unless they're quite solidly braced. Not great for your stuff, but for the truck chassis I'm working on at the moment this setup works well and looks quite good (IMO):

The 2x3 plate is quite solid but tends to work loose if there's much flexing. That's annoying in the middle of a model, and they're somewhat tricky to lock in place. The multipart pinned brace is expensive and heavy, but self-locating. If you're really keen using a 4 axle instead of the 2 axle and putting a perpendicular joiner on each end stops it rotating and means you can just stack 15 long liftarms end to end. If you do that you only need one bracing part (with 3 long pin friction) in the middle of each group of 4 beams.

Building with these really has to happen in CAD - because of the open 3 holes then 4 holes pattern with 15 liftarms too often I end up needing to put an axle somewhere that's blocked, and rearranging them is a pain if you can't just select one whole side and drag it two holes along, or simply delete the pin friction and replace it with an axle.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Moz

[timslegos]

That is a really good way to utilize the plates, i will have to try that on my models.

tim

[Ape Fight]

I like both techniques, and have used both with, I think, equal amounts of success or lack of.

But, I'm not sure why the consensus seems to be that studded building for Technic is stronger?

I think studless, especially when dealing with lots of power, will be much stronger, as you can build in a way where it is physically impossible for a motor to separate pieces.

You can't do that with studded, as I've found out with my latest MOC - the body of which is studless, whilst the chassis is traditional studded beams and plates. The two XL motors will crack the chassis cross-rails which hold the gears if the model hits something or changes direction immediately too many times. The chassis is ridiculously reinforced and has no flex in it at all - yet massively geared down XLs can still separate plates holdng the gear beams if you're not careful, as the power of LEGO studs isn't enough to stop them.

Studless, with pins, would definitely stop this happening as you can build in such a way that no matter how hard you pull or push in a direction, nothing will loosen or move.

But - studded bodywork can look friggin' brilliant if done properly : )

[timslegos]

The two XL motors will crack the chassis cross-rails which hold the gears if the model hits something or changes direction immediately too many times. The chassis is ridiculously reinforced and has no flex in it at all - yet massively geared down XLs can still separate plates holdng the gear beams if you're not careful, as the power of LEGO studs isn't enough to stop them.

Yes i have had the same problem on my tow truck and dump truck. The way i fixed it was to build horizontally and also use a 1 by 3 stud-less lift-arm between the gears and the beams so the beams could not separate.

tim

[Erik Leppen]

But, I'm not sure why the consensus seems to be that studded building for Technic is stronger?

There are different levels of "strong" here.

You're talking about strong meaning inseparable by forces in a vertical direction. However strong can also be interpreted as simply rigid (unflexible). In this meaning of the word, studded is certainly more effective because beam-plate connections have much less play than pinned connections. No studless construction I know of beats a rigid beam.

To give an example, I don't think I could have designed a frame equally strong (= rigid) as this one with studless beams only. That said, the new 7 x 5 and 11 x 5 panels are of great help in creating rigid studless frames (see 8258)!

[timslegos]

There are different levels of "strong" here.

You're talking about strong meaning inseparable by forces in a vertical direction. However strong can also be interpreted as simply rigid (unflexible). In this meaning of the word, studded is certainly more effective because beam-plate connections have much less play than pinned connections. No studless construction I know of beats a rigid beam.

To give an example, I don't think I could have designed a frame equally strong (= rigid) as this one with studless beams only. That said, the new 7 x 5 and 11 x 5 panels are of great help in creating rigid studless frames (see 8258)!

At the moment, I am in the middle of building a truck trial truck, which is completely stud-less. I am having problems with the beams bending, were if they were studded beams they would not have bent as much.

tim

[MarcusB]

Everything stated here is complete nonsense on about 10 different levels.

Not starting internet wars with people I don't know. If you think studded beams are superior, that is your opinion, but you can't deny the masterful cleverness of Sheepo's Porsche model. He should be working with the Lego company's technic team. He has done things with studless building that no one has ever seen before.

[Bulle]

Studless is far more modular than the old skool technic. Its not opinion, its logic. The problem here is that people are hating and not thinking. There is nothing wrong with old skool technic. Be thankfull that both are compatible, thats the superiority.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Bulle

[parda]

Studless is far more modular than the old skool technic. Its not opinion, its logic. The problem here is that people are hating and not thinkig. There is nothing wrong with old skool technik. Be thankfull that both are compatible, thats the superiority.

You see the light!! why stud-on or stud- off? the best results where accomplished when you use the best working parts for your function needs.

Well I need an example... might a Sheepo's creations will help....Hey!! look at those chasis! what are those pieces? it have something on top...

Hope this not cause a short-circuit in anyone's brain

Edited July 18, 2011 by parda

[Phantom59]

Just out of interest which has the higher braking strain? studs or studless

[DLuders]

According to Wikipedia, "strain" is defined as "a geometrical measure of deformation representing the relative displacement between particles in a material body...." The red Technic Brick (pictured below) has less "strain" (deformation) in bending than the Pearl Gray Technic Liftarm, because the Technic Brick has more "meat" (plastic).

Since the old-style Technic Bricks come in even-stud lengths and the new-style Technic Liftarms come in odd-stud lengths, I don't know if one could compare "apples with apples". The Technic Bricks are 1.2 studs high x 1 stud wide, while the Technic Liftarms have a 1 x 1 cross-section.

Structures usually fail at the CONNECTIONS, not in the material itself. Since studless Technic pieces can be connected in three-dimensional frames, they make stronger structures. However, they may DISPLACE a bit more than Technic Bricks would.

[Sokratesz]

You could measure it between two axleholes so the distance is at least the same. Other than that, they will be difficult to compare because of the inherent differences in structure.

My gut feeling however tells me that the old beams will be stiffer and the new ones will be more flexible, and that the old ones will have a higher break load for the same distance.

- Sok.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Sokratesz

[Lasse D]

IIRC, the two types of bricks are not even made of the same type of plastic. (Can't find the presentation right now).

Simply take one of each and try to bend it with your bands in order to get a feeling for it. Allowing your frame to be flexible can also be a strength. Try to drop a liftarm construction and a classic technic model and you will see the largest advantage of liftarms in kids play.

[timslegos]

Simply take one of each and try to bend it with your bands in order to get a feeling for it. Allowing your frame to be flexible can also be a strength. Try to drop a liftarm construction and a classic technic model and you will see the largest advantage of liftarms in kids play.

Is that part of why TLG uses studless liftarms and beams for sets, because they have more "give" to them?

[DLuders]

Is that part of why TLG uses studless liftarms and beams for sets, because they have more "give" to them?

Studless Technic Liftarms allow for easier 3-dimensional building, and since they have less plastic material, the cost of the Technic sets is lower.

[timslegos]

Studless Technic Liftarms allow for easier 3-dimensional building, and since they have less plastic material, the cost of the Technic sets is lower.

Oh ya that does make sense. Would the lower amount of plastic really make such a difference on the price?

tim

[Sokratesz]

Oh ya that does make sense. Would the lower amount of plastic really make such a difference on the price?

tim

I'm wondering this too. What's the cost of a LEGO piece, broken down by R&D, making the mold, the actual material and losses through inaccuracies in the mold?

- Sok.

[allanp]

It's not only that there is less plastic that makes the studless beams cheaper, the moulds can be made far cheaper too because they are less complicated and don't have to be in so many parts. I don't wish to make TLG out to be a bunch of cheapskates tho (although they are a profit driven business above all) because this lower cost of parts have enabled them to give us steadly bigger flagships with higher parts counts. I know there has been a sharp increase in the number of connector pegs used, but remember there are also hardly any plates anymore which negates the increase in parts count that is attributable to pins, so that's one benifit of studless to keep in mind.

[Phantom59]

It's not only that there is less plastic that makes the studless beams cheaper, the moulds can be made far cheaper too because they are less complicated and don't have to be in so many parts. I don't wish to make TLG out to be a bunch of cheapskates tho (although they are a profit driven business above all) because this lower cost of parts have enabled them to give us steadly bigger flagships with higher parts counts. I know there has been a sharp increase in the number of connector pegs used, but remember there are also hardly any plates anymore which negates the increase in parts count that is attributable to pins, so that's one benifit of studless to keep in mind.

When you think about it, studless (and the general bricks) would I think only require 2part mould (left & right faces) where is studeted technic (with holes) would require 4part mould (left & Right and Up & Down faces)

[timslegos]

When you think about it, studless (and the general bricks) would I think only require 2part mould (left & right faces) where is studeted technic (with holes) would require 4part mould (left & Right and Up & Down faces)

Yes that would make a lot of sense. When was the first studless set introduced?

tim

[DLuders]

When was the first studless set introduced?

By studying chronological order of the Technic theme sets in Brickset, it seems that the Year 2001 marked the first all-studless Technic sets. The 8466 4x4 Off Roader set was the Technic "flagship" for that year: