Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Palathadric]

I would guess so.

The game will be played by PM, right?

Edited December 7, 2014 by Palathadric

[K-Nut]

You could potentially tie with it, but unless it's given to you, I don't think there's any way of getting one seeing as you can't win it off of an opponent.

[Flipz]

Technically, yes, but it's only one round in a hand.

You could potentially tie with it, but unless it's given to you, I don't think there's any way of getting one seeing as you can't win it off of an opponent.

Exactly.

OMG that gargoyle...not the card specifically, the enemy for it is just really cool.

[Asphalt]

And once more, Sandy proves how awesome he/she is.

Also, thanks again Asphalt - I've been looking forward to the Tournament for a while. I should have been a bit more careful of my coins when I was gearing up for the FOG.

No problem, Lind. Just remember me i you win big. :)

[Bricksandparts]

Just to make sure, We get to keep all the cards we have after the cup, right? We aren't forced to convert them all to prizes, are we?

[Vash the Stampede]

Just to make sure, We get to keep all the cards we have after the cup, right? We aren't forced to convert them all to prizes, are we?

I'd assume so seeing how there have been some Decamon mingames on some quests. And what would the champ be able to do with their shiny new class if they have no cards for it.

A question I do have though what happens if at any time you have less than 5 cards in a round (Say you have horrendous luck or you only bought 1 pack and had a less than optimal round)?

[Lind Whisperer]

I'd assume so seeing how there have been some Decamon mingames on some quests. And what would the champ be able to do with their shiny new class if they have no cards for it.

You can buy the Decamonizer in the Fields of Glory, which will convert certain monsters into cards.

A question I do have though what happens if at any time you have less than 5 cards in a round (Say you have horrendous luck or you only bought 1 pack and had a less than optimal round)?

You can only play if you have a full 5 card deck, so even if you lose all of them, you enter with enough cards to finish the round.

[Flipz]

I'd assume so seeing how there have been some Decamon mingames on some quests. And what would the champ be able to do with their shiny new class if they have no cards for it.

A question I do have though what happens if at any time you have less than 5 cards in a round (Say you have horrendous luck or you only bought 1 pack and had a less than optimal round)?

Even if you only buy 1 pack (5 cards), the only way to end up with fewer than 5 cards by the end would be if you lost the match (and thus were eliminated anyway); since the winner takes the loser's card each time, the only way to lose more cards than you gain would be to lose 3 or more rounds within the hand, which officially counts as a loss.

Example:

A (5 cards) vs. B (5 cards)

Round 1: A wins

A (6 cards) vs. B (4 cards)

Round 2: A wins

A (7 cards) vs. B (3 cards)

Round 3: B wins

A (6 cards) vs. B (4 cards)

Round 4: B wins

A (5 cards) vs. B (5 cards)

A and B are tied at this point. If A loses the round, he'll lose the match and also will not have enough cards to play anyway; the same goes for B. Thus, the only way to not have enough cards to play would also be to lose the match and thus be eliminated.

[Vash the Stampede]

Wall of Text

Oh...silly me misread the rules and thought it was 5 rounds of 5 cards played at once. Now rereading its 5 rounds of 1 card played at once. Nevermind me I'll show myself the idot dorr.

[Waterbrick Down]

So going into a match, I assume each player be aware of the cards in their opponent's deck?

[K-Nut]

So going into a match, I assume each player be aware of the cards in their opponent's deck?

Not in their opponents deck. In 100 I don't think Nur knew what cards Auntie Cinnabar had. They'll just need to select five from their deck I think.

[Flipz]

I'm not sure, it's never been specified. It seems only fair, since obviously both the match-runner and other players will know the cards in the players' decks, but it does change the way one has to think about the game.

Incidentally, I've determined that the Ethereal 1 card (Ursa Minor) is absolutely useless; at most, it can force a tie with another Level 1 card, but in any other situation it is automatically beaten. Basically, if you get an Ethereal 1 card and use it in a hand for a match, you are virtually guaranteed to lose at least one round of that match.

[Waterbrick Down]

So I'm assuming there will their be a match runner?

[K-Nut]

So I'm assuming there will their be a match runner?

I'm guessing Sandy will run it like a battle (being in charge of it that is). Especially since round 1 is all against NPCs apparently.

[Flipz]

Not in their opponents deck. In 100 I don't think Nur knew what cards Auntie Cinnabar had. They'll just need to select five from their deck I think.

Which sort of makes sense, but at the same time knowing what the opponent has in store changes your strategy. I was going to suggest that we could see the NPCs' decks (from which they'd secretly pick 5 cards for a hand), but even then Sandy will know which 5 cards you've chosen, and no matter how neutral he tries to be it will subtly influence the way the NPCs play.

It would almost be better if there was a second Decamon official to handle the individual hand submissions; that way, both players would be blind, but there'd still be someone to keep people honest. (It would have to be instituted alongside the "we get to see NPCs' decks before they choose a hand" suggestion to still be completely fair, though, unless the NPCs' hands were picked from their deck by random draw.)

[K-Nut]

I'm guessing that the five cards the NPCs use will be pre-selected, no matter who they're going up against. Everyone, even NPCs, have their own strategies.

[Flipz]

Let's establish some terminology here, because this is going to get confusing.

Unofficial Decamon Glossary

1. Deck - Term for the total collection of all of a player's Decamon cards.
   
2. Hand - Five (5) cards, chosen from a player's deck in order to be played in a match.
   
3. Match - A Decamon engagement between two players, played in five (5) Rounds. Whichever player wins more Rounds wins the match.
   
4. Round - A single portion of play within a match, in which each player plays one card against their opponent. The player with the higher-numbered card wins the Round, unless one card trumps the other.
   
5. Cup - Term for a set of matches played within a tournament. In an elimination tournament, anyone who loses a match within the cup is eliminated from the tournament. Similar term: "bracket".
   
6. Tournament - A group of matches organized into cups. There are several different types of tournaments, but the most common to date is the elimination tournament, in which anyone who loses a match within a cup is eliminated from the tournament.
   

[Bricksandparts]

I'm guessing that the five cards the NPCs use will be pre-selected, no matter who they're going up against. Everyone, even NPCs, have their own strategies.

That's not (at least from what I understand), Flipz is saying. If Sandy controlled the NPCs AND calculated the battle, subconsciously him knowing what hand the player, or the NPC's (sandy) opponent, has, would affect what cards he used. If both players know at the start what their opponents hand is, this isn't an issue. However, if your hand is private, this is a problem.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Bricksandparts

[K-Nut]

I'm saying that the NPC will probably pick their hand first, avoiding the subconscious choice that Flipz is referencing. Sandy picks the five cards in the NPCs hand before the Hero does theirs, therefore avoiding using the knowledge of the players hand into the decision of what cards to use for the match. But yes, then there's the problem of knowing both hands at once.

It shouldn't matter, though. If the NPC starts, then they don't know what their opponent will play on top of them. If the PC starts, then they would end up playing a trumping or higher card anyways to take their opponents care. Either way, all cards get played against each other, albeit in a different order. As long as the NPCs pick their cards first, it should be fine, right?...

Damn this is confusing. We just trusted Jeb to be honest when we did this in Quest #100 and he kept his deck secret.

[Flipz]

It does affect things, though; let's say an NPC picks a Dark 2, Plant 2, Fiery 3, Aquatic 4, and Rock 6 deck (totally random off the top of my head). A player picks a Rock 3, Plant 4, Luminous 5, Fiery 1, Ethereal 2 deck (again, just whatever pops into my head).

The picks may not have been influenced by each other, but now that the opponents know each others' decks, it affects strategy; for example, in a blind environment, it's utter stupidity to play your strongest cards if you have to go first since you don't know if your opponent has something that beats it, but now the NPC knows that he can play his Aquatic 4 without consequence, and as soon as the player plays his Plant 4 card (which the NPC can force out with his Plant 2 card), he can play his Rock 6 card without fear.

...let me explain. Basically, as the acting player in a Round (playing your card before your opponent), you want to play something you're willing to lose, since odds are your opponent will have something to counter it. As a result, stronger cards get saved for later, but that also means you have less chance to strategize to make sure you can keep said stronger card. However, if you also know your opponent's hand, you can play your big cards as active moves rather than reactive moves, which not only means you can be sure to keep them, but also means that you can significantly shift the power of play to your side (since you can now win more rounds in which you go first AND have the normal advantage of choice when going second). Essentially, playing with visible hands shifts a lot of the strategy into the pick stage, with a winner essentially being decided the moment the hands are revealed.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Flipz

[K-Nut]

But I feel like visible hands defeat the whole purpose of the game. I'm guessing Sandy has thought all of this through (and if not, it can be solved pretty easily). It saves us a lot of questioning.

Also, I don't know if this has been addressed anywhere, but say my opponent plays a Plant 4 and I play a Plant 6, gaining their Plant 4. Would I theoretically be able to play that card within the same match?

[Flipz]

But I feel like visible hands defeat the whole purpose of the game. I'm guessing Sandy has thought all of this through (and if not, it can be solved pretty easily). It saves us a lot of questioning.

Also, I don't know if this has been addressed anywhere, but say my opponent plays a Plant 4 and I play a Plant 6, gaining their Plant 4. Would I theoretically be able to play that card within the same match?

That's exactly what I'm saying; even if Sandy tries to be neutral, if he can see the hands ahead of time, it could affect his decision-making for the NPCs (either positively or negatively for them, depending on which direction he tries to be neutral). Hidden hands are the way to go.

Regarding your scenario: no. Hands are pre-selected before the match, and won cards (as well as the cards you use to win them) go into your deck instead of into your hand.

[Lind Whisperer]

It could be kind of hard to go "hidden hands" for the several players with only five cards...

[JimBee]

It states in the rules that hands are kept hidden from the other player. In the case where a player's deck is only 5 cards, it's easy to know their hand but my guess is that the first matches (PCs vs. NPCs) will offer a chance for everyone to get on more equal footing. Maybe Sandy will make easy matches for those who didn't have enough gold for good cards, and harder for those that did. But the cards picked by Sandy are likely logical without bias - there are only so many cards that an NPC could play that would trump a PC's card - they'll use these to win in a logical way. I doubt Sandy would "cheat" by looking forward to the hand picked by the PC and choosing the NPC's cards in the best order possible - he probably doesn't have that much time in his hands and will probably try to be as fair as possible.

[Flipz]

Fair enough, but that only lasts for the first cup; as soon as you win a match, you'll have at least 6 cards, at which point hidden hands comes back into play.