Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Dannylonglegs]

QM Note: I love you all too. Even Dannylonglegs!

You do? Mwahahahaha! The computer-virus worked!!! World domination is at hand!

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Brickdoctor]

Die.

Agreed.

Am I the only person here with English as his mother tongue?

I speak Galactic Basic.

[Waterbrick Down]

The reason I did that was to ensure the Black Knight didn't steal the boss loot was because they were an artifact and a weapon, both rather powerful too. I don't mind the black knights Arrogant Prick ability, in fact, for the three battles there were in the quest, I was rather fond of his theiving ways, I just wanted to ensure an equal distribution of loot, especially after the previous fight with the Shadow Sister saw all the loot stolen by the Black Knight. In a fight against a load of grunts, sure, steal away. There, the attack is less effective since he's only getting a potion, or a remedy. For bossesthough, my mentality is if it's an artefact or a weapon, don't let them steal it. Do it once in a quest, and don't do it again. I like messing with party members by making them think outside of their usual strategy, but I'm also not out to kill them!

I don't know if I'd go so far as to not let them steal any artifact or weapon, after all it is their ability and they should be able to benefit from it on some occasions. Now of course don't let them steal every single thing, but I don't see what's so wrong with them being able to get a good piece of loot every once and a while.

I don't mind immunities at all. You don't hear Assassins cry over immune to sudden death enemies. Just deal with it. Also, if I ever quest with a black knight. That Black Knight's going to drop his stuff in the pool or else receive nothing, no healing, no help, no nothing.

Then what is the point of them having that ability?

[Dannylonglegs]

I don't know if I'd go so far as to not let them steal any artifact or weapon, after all it is their ability and they should be able to benefit from it on some occasions. Now of course don't let them steal every single thing, but I don't see what's so wrong with them being able to get a good piece of loot every once and a while.

I completely agree, but Kinto's Troll's Horde power made sense and it was the only monster to feature it. I think similar abilities are A Okay when used sparingly, and not with every boss. Dragons and Trolls that don't keep their loot on their person are good contenders, and so are monsters that cannot be hit by close-range strikes (like Phase 1 Fleur, but not up-close-and-personal Fleur.) In rare occasions, Opponents that posses powerful artifacts may have them magically bound to their person or something if the need ever arises, but I think Kinto's Horde power was completely fair.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Professor Flitwick]

Suppose that's fair. I did ask Thothwick to dole out his winnings in 66, but if he didn't I wouldn't have minded it (don't know fully if he did ever, actually ).

I did! Well, Nyx got hers, but you left before I returned to the Hall!

[UsernameMDM]

The reason I did that was to ensure the Black Knight didn't steal the boss loot was because they were an artifact and a weapon, both rather powerful too. I don't mind the black knights Arrogant Prick ability, in fact, for the three battles there were in the quest, I was rather fond of his theiving ways, I just wanted to ensure an equal distribution of loot, especially after the previous fight with the Shadow Sister saw all the loot stolen by the Black Knight. In a fight against a load of grunts, sure, steal away. There, the attack is less effective since he's only getting a potion, or a remedy. For bossesthough, my mentality is if it's an artefact or a weapon, don't let them steal it. Do it once in a quest, and don't do it again. I like messing with party members by making them think outside of their usual strategy, but I'm also not out to kill them!

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

[Kintobor]

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

That's the best alternative, unless the drop is the item the enemies using, like a weapon the calibre of Conspirator.

[Dannylonglegs]

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

No PC's ability is useful 100% of the time though. (accept maybe healing/defensive specials, and even then, sometimes a party's at full health/damage is not rolled) Mages have to deal with some enemies that are ethereal or immune to scroll effects. Assasins have to deal with insta-kill immune opponents. Sorcerers face enemies immune to Hexed, and witches face enemies immune to poison. Why should Black Knights be any different? I'm with Kinto on this. Also, sometimes some loot needs to stay on the enemy's person for the plot/other reasons, like the ship's contract in 62 which would have ended the boss-fight prematurely without the satisfaction of having beaten Fleur-up. (which didn't happen anyway, but I digress.)

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited June 26, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Scorpiox]

Then what is the point of them having that ability?

I think Scuba's opinion is fair enough actually. Sure, they have a shield skill that lets them take loot; but for me that doesn't give them dispensation to steal and horde all the good items. If I were faced with a Black Knight in my party who repeatedly targetted the foe with the best loot in order to keep it for themself, and then refused to share anything on account of 'Hey, It's my job trait'; I'd be thinking twice about throwing them assistance any time soon.

Teamwork is what it's all about, right? Because in truth, nobody could force Haldor to heal anyone other than himself - but if he didn't do it then I guarantee I'd have every player in this community raining down around my ears for it. Folks have got to play fair.

I speak Galactic Basic.

QaStaHvIS latlh De' tlhIngan je jatlh!

[Dannylonglegs]

QaStaHvIS latlh De' tlhIngan je jatlh!

What on earth/elsewhere is that?! Klingon?

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited June 26, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Waterbrick Down]

No PC's ability is useful 100% of the time though. (accept maybe healing/defensive specials, and even then, sometimes a party's at full health/damage is not rolled) Mages have to deal with some enemies that are ethereal or immune to scroll effects. Assasins have to deal with insta-kill immune opponents. Why should Black Knights be any different? I'm with Kinto on this. Also, sometimes some loot needs to stay on the enemy's person for the plot/other reasons, like the ship's contract in 62 which would have ended the boss-fight prematurely without the satisfaction of having beaten Fleur-up. (which didn't happen anyway, but I digress.)

~Insectoid Aristocrat

I'd agree as well and think that Kintober's special was great, but just that it should be used in moderation. All of the points you made are good, I just don't think setting an absolute like a Black Knight should never be able to steal a weapon or artifact is a good policy.

I think Scuba's opinion is fair enough actually. Sure, they have a shield skill that lets them take loot; but for me that doesn't give them dispensation to steal and horde all the good items. If I were faced with a Black Knight in my party who repeatedly targetted the foe with the best loot in order to keep it for themself, and then refused to share anything on account of 'Hey, It's my job trait'; I'd be thinking twice about throwing them assistance any time soon.

Teamwork is what it's all about, right? Because in truth, nobody could force Haldor to heal anyone other than himself - but if he didn't do it then I guarantee I'd have every player in this community raining down around my ears for it. Folks have got to play fair.

Of course someone abusing the system fully deserves to have no assistance from someone else, but you still didn't address in what way that aspect of their (Black Knight's) special is beneficial to them. Black knights, along with pretty much all of the rogue classes are built to be self beneficial. They aren't designed for team-work necessarily, they're designed for benefiting the individual player.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Waterbrick Down

[Brickdoctor]

What on earth/elsewhere is that?! Klingon?

Looks like it. I think it says something like, "As it happens, I also speak Klingon." Not really sure.

[Scorpiox]

What on earth/elsewhere is that?! Klingon?

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Yup. As we know, you are extremely versed when it comes to Star Trek.

Of course someone abusing the system fully deserves to have no assistance from someone else, but you still didn't address in what way that aspect of their (Black Knight's) special is beneficial to them. Black knights, along with pretty much all of the rogue classes are built to be self beneficial. They aren't designed for team-work necessarily, they're designed for benefiting the individual player.

To be honest I don't know. The shield skill is very beneficial and self-orientated in theory, but in practice I doubt many parties will allow its use without afterwards sharing the loot. Perhaps it would help in a situation in which a Black Knight manages to loot and then flee from a tough enemy safely - but that's as far as I can imagine. It's difficult to play a selfish game to that degree without complaints.

Looks like it. I think it says something like, "As it happens, I also speak Klingon." Not really sure.

Ha ha ha! Almost bang on!

I'm actually pretty disturbed that you managed to translate it.

[Waterbrick Down]

To be honest I don't know. The shield skill is very beneficial and self-orientated in theory, but in practice I doubt many parties will allow its use without afterwards sharing the loot. Perhaps it would help in a situation in which a Black Knight manages to loot and then flee from a tough enemy safely - but that's as far as I can imagine. It's difficult to play a selfish game to that degree without complaints.

True, I think part of the issue also arises from the fact that the party leader usually distributes the loot as opposed to it being a free for all. If the game was played more from a "you kill it, you loot it" style, a Black Knight's special would fit a little better.

[Scorpiox]

True, I think part of the issue also arises from the fact that the party leader usually distributes the loot as opposed to it being a free for all. If the game was played more from a "you kill it, you loot it" style, a Black Knight's special would fit a little better.

That's something I'd personally hate to see. It would just be too orientated towards offensive AoE damaging classes. If that policy were to be put in place, it sounds as though clerics wouldn't be getting any stuff at all - despite their constant battle to make sure everyone else is alive enough to be able to.

As I said on the Pay-4-Revives idea - The moment that people start playing this game solely for themselves - and the element of community spirit is lost - is also the moment that this game falls to pieces.

I know you weren't seriously suggesting it, I'm just giving my opinion.

[JimBee]

True, I think part of the issue also arises from the fact that the party leader usually distributes the loot as opposed to it being a free for all. If the game was played more from a "you kill it, you loot it" style, a Black Knight's special would fit a little better.

Which would negate any need for support classes. But of course that's just theoretical, I certainly hope this game wouldn't start to focus only on the offensive classes.

[Scorpiox]

Which would negate any need for support classes. But of course that's just theoretical, I certainly hope this game wouldn't start to focus only on the offensive classes.

Truth is that rogue classes already are and are able to be FAR more powerful than anything else in this game. Money gets you upgrades, artefacts and therefore strength; a valuable commodity rarer than you'd think for support classes. Healers are barely even needed when you have potions. To think, Haldor gained about 150 pieces of gold this past quest, probably less. Whereas Benji I believe gained over a thousand. I still can't see, to my blindness, how a hero could possible 'need' to make that much cash in a quest, but that's what a lot of players say.

In honesty, most heroes will always be weaker than their rogue allies - but that's okay. If I wanted to play this game to be all-powerful I'd have gone rogue at the start. But I find cleric/barbarian hybrid classing to be far more enjoyable, and that's why I do it. Scorpiox' advice to all: This game can be fun in so many other ways that purely min/maxing, so discover and explore them! Don't feel that you must become a raider or assassin simply because they allow you to eclipse others in power, play what you like best!

[Brickdoctor]

Ha ha ha! Almost bang on!

I'm actually pretty disturbed that you managed to translate it.

Well Bing Translate was useless. It said something about 'troops who said "news!"'. So I looked up the words individually, interpreted the definitions based on context, and then corrected and added words for English grammar.

On topic: About Black Knights, there's not much that hasn't already been said, but I agree that with some enemies, it makes sense to have items be un-stealable, like bosses' equipment. (But maybe not that same bosses' consumables.)

[Dannylonglegs]

I'd agree as well and think that Kintober's special was great, but just that it should be used in moderation. All of the points you made are good, I just don't think setting an absolute like a Black Knight should never be able to steal a weapon or artifact is a good policy.

Exactly.

Yup. As we know, you are extremely versed when it comes to Star Trek.

To be fair, Klingons can mind-meld too. They just use their prostheticy foreheads and bash yours in.

Also, I've now watched alittle under half of the old Star-Treck films and both of the rebooted ones. Overall impression: I still prefer Star Wars. Those three movies were fantastic.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited June 26, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Scorpiox]

To be fair, Klingons can mind-meld too. They just use their prostheticy foreheads and bash yours in.

Also, I've now watched alittle under half of the old Star-Treck films and both of the rebooted ones. Overall impression: I still prefer Star Wars. Those three movies were fantastic.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Heretic!

In all seriousness, they're both great examples of early-ish outstanding graphics and containing many great themes. I love them both.

[Chromeknight]

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

This.

[Palathadric]

Hey, Monk Pretzel/Palathadric is asked to specify which Alexander must die, the archer (NO) and the knight (YES)

Meh! Kill them all. God will care for his own.

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

The day you see me hosting a quest with Black Knights is the day you'll see no loot dropped throughout the entire quest.

Of course someone abusing the system fully deserves to have no assistance from someone else, but you still didn't address in what way that aspect of their (Black Knight's) special is beneficial to them. Black knights, along with pretty much all of the rogue classes are built to be self beneficial. They aren't designed for team-work necessarily, they're designed for benefiting the individual player.

Well, the way its worked in our quest is that Dreyrugr more or less distributes whatever he wins. None of us would really be able to prevent him from keeping what he wins in battle, but he's been nice (for a demon), and any loot he keeps for himself will be deducted like everything else given out in the final scheme of things. I think it works best that way, keep the things you win if you want, but if you start keeping all the best stuff then your party will be sure to screw you over at every given opportunity.

[Scubacarrot]

Well, the way its worked in our quest is that Dreyrugr more or less distributes whatever he wins. None of us would really be able to prevent him from keeping what he wins in battle, but he's been nice (for a demon), and any loot he keeps for himself will be deducted like everything else given out in the final scheme of things. I think it works best that way, keep the things you win if you want, but if you start keeping all the best stuff then your party will be sure to screw you over at every given opportunity.

I think that's the best way of dealing with things. Black knight has their advantage, since they basically get first pick if they managed to win something they want, but it's still mostly all fair. Of course, I wouldn't hold it against anyone if they decide to just keep everything they win, but Guts might.

Instead of having a special that invalidates a PC's ability, why not just have that treasure/drops hidden in a chest that is revealed after the enemy is defeated?

It's effectively the same thing though isn't it?

[Palathadric]

It's effectively the same thing though isn't it?

Nope, because the Black Knights can't steal it before the battle is won.

Eh, not wanted to write at all.

But it looks better than just slapping on an immunity.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Palathadric

[Endgame]

Hey, a rose by any other name.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Endgame