Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Endgame]

I was considering making it the overkill/2 in gold, but like Zeph said 'they're in the game, so they're in the game."

We're both M/N/SS junkies though, so.... eh.

[Kintobor]

So.... who thought up the Overkill gloves? they are overpowered as all hell.

Shall we start a lynch mob?

Vote: Dannylonglegs

[Scubacarrot]

That shouldn't matter, if it's in the game, it can be nerfed.

[CMP]

I don't make >> 400 gold in single hits. And battles can be easily adapted to give me a challenge, fixing the economy because thousands of gold from every battle is hard. (Guts makes like 200 gold a battle these days, keep that in mind).

I said if you were Rogue, in which case it'd be 230 gold per Mug, not counting elemental bonuses, not to mention you'd probably get two or three due to Smelling Salts and Dancing Shoes. That's all.

[Scorpiox]

That shouldn't matter, if it's in the game, it can be nerfed.

Exactly. This is kind of a common sense thing now, Endgame. Just think of everything ever nerfed: it's when being used that we decide it needs to happen.

[Endgame]

Not to mention that the gloves really wouldn't be overpowered on anybody besides Arthur... It'd be a completely different story if Boomingham held onto them.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Endgame

[Scubacarrot]

I said if you were Rogue, in which case it'd be 230 gold per Mug, not counting elemental bonuses, not to mention you'd probably get two or three due to Smelling Salts and Dancing Shoes. That's all.

But I'm never going rogue again because I'd be much weaker. So that's irrelevant.

Not to mention that the gloves really wouldn't be overpowered on anybody besides Arthur... It'd be a completely different story if Boomingham held onto them.

So...? Arthur does hold onto them, right?

I'm just saying, it's probably worse than old style raiders.

[Endgame]

Nerfing items on a player by player basis doesn't sit right with me. It isn't an absolute thing, like the Conspirator was - where every class benefited regardless. The Overkill Gloves just fit especially well with Arthur's loadout, while they wouldn't do nearly as much good as with other heroes.

That, and I screwed up with the Chromoids. Arhtur's gold earnings from the gloves were like 150/70 from battles 2 and 3, respectively.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Endgame

[Scubacarrot]

I don't see that logic at all. That item would be powerful in any class that has a decent amount of being lucky and decent damage. Imagine it in the hands of a Raider, Battlemage, Hunter? Take that thing to two Field battles and you could retire.

I'm not meaning to be a dick, but it's blatantly overpowered, in my opinion. That doesn't matter if it's because it fits well, if he wasn't thought to be able to get it or whatever, he's able to get absurd amounts of cash really easily, that's the facts, and I would nerf it. You obviously don't feel the same way, that's fine, I guess. It's your call.

[Dannylonglegs]

Ah yes, the wild cards! I really adore our wild card players! I would almost put Karie under them, but she's almost not outlandish enough to contend. What makes Nessa a wild card is her unpredictability. Karie despite how odd she is, is somewhat predictable. You know what she's going to do to get the info off the bard, use her charm and spunk on him. Nessa on the other hand, might go straight, let her mother step in, or go out and threaten him with her demonic voice. If you want a fun party dynamic, throw one in there. Or in 69's case, throw two in!

She's unusual and unique, but overall she's predictably fun! True wild cards can be nice or nasty or funny depending on the moment (and even then, it's allot more varied: PRetzel's usually nasty, funny (but not overboardly so) or normal, Nessa's Nice, Nasty, or Normal, Rome's alleigance is to himself, so you really can't tell what he'll do, etc....)

Shall we start a lynch mob?

Vote: Dannylonglegs

I'm confused suddenly.

So.... who thought up the Overkill gloves? they are overpowered as all hell.

Endgame, and they were OKed by Sandy.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Endgame]

Sorcerer is really the only class that can easily get a x8 multiplier though, due to their ability to garner gold, use gems, and cast frailty. Even hunters can't do that, due to their lack of income. Battle mages... maybe. However, I am willing to impose a 100 gold overkill limit per attack.

Sound good?

[Jebediahs]

Sorcerer is really the only class that can easily get a x8 multiplier though, due to their ability to garner gold, use gems, and cast frailty. Even hunters can't do that, due to their lack of income. Battle mages... maybe. However, I am willing to impose a 100 gold overkill limit per attack.

Sound good?

Why? Sandy approved your item...twice.

If you know anything about MMORPGs (online roleplaying video games), then you know that inflation and balanced pricing is a big concern in them. We are seeing the same phenomenon taking place here, but there's not much I can do about it, I fear.

As for items that give unfair advantages, you do realize that it's difficult to predict their effects before they are put into the game. When the Overkill Gloves were presented to me, I didn't see them as much of a gamebreaker, but then again, I hadn't taken into account the insane amount of multipliers some people get.

I guess it's up to us QMs to make it even harder to exploit certain items and strategies in battles. But then again, if someone has gone through the trouble of inventing an intricate strategy that benefits them, in my opinion they earn the benefits.

[Scubacarrot]

Jebediahs, by that logic raiders should not have had to be nerfed. (they had to be nerfed)

I'll say this once, and in the future, I will deny this every time, but rogue classes have a clear advantage and are easily the most powerful class in Heroica. Heroica is not balanced by any means, but playing a rogue is the most flexible, and easy way to become powerful in this game. Getting gold is an actual issue for non rogue classes, or people that never dual classed into rogue. The only easy way for those people to get a decent amount of gold is the Fields, and that's not everyone's cup of tea. In a game where a lot of power (and flexibility) comes from gold, this seems like a problem. Of course it's not so bad as before the raiders nerf, thousands of gold in a battle is not okay by any stretch, where someone else might get barely 50 in a whole quest. Rogues have that advantage, yet from the advanced classes onwards don't suffer in terms of power modifiers (e.g. attacks or roles). Rogue I'd say is the least powerful basic class if you don't take the gold into account. This is not the reason we have so many rogues, I like to think it's for roleplaying reasons, rogues are hip with the kids. Overkill gloves basically give you the power of being a rogue (probably more powerful even that that), e.g. lots of gold if used remotely right, but can be carried by anyone, even rogue classes themselves, effectively turning them into a double rogue. Meaning you'll get effectively twice the gold a regular rogue would get, which is already a multiplier of what non rogue classes get. What I am getting at is this: Rogues and their advanced classes are overpowered. Overkill gloves are overpowered. Together, they create Arthur, the soon to be Personification of Mercutio, the patron of the rich.

And Endgame, that seems fair to me.

[Cutcobra]

I have a question, how can a mechanical enemy bleed?

[Endgame]

I have a question, how can a mechanical enemy bleed?

I'd assume they'd operate on some sort of oil-based mechanism.

[Flipz]

Sorcerer is really the only class that can easily get a x8 multiplier though, due to their ability to garner gold, use gems, and cast frailty. Even hunters can't do that, due to their lack of income. Battle mages... maybe. However, I am willing to impose a 100 gold overkill limit per attack.

Sound good?

Not to me. Both for obvious reasons, and the fact that any hard cap will make the effect of the gloves not scale with level, which will make them less and less useful as time goes on. IF they are nerfed (which I do not support), I'd rather it be multiplicative in nature.

Believe it or not, I'm not making tons of Gold. As a good Rogue party member, I use a huge chunk of my earnings to buy up consumables for supporting and healing the rest of the team. I constantly have to worry about my Ether, and have to spend large amounts of money on Ether-restoring items. I also try to hand out some Gold to my fellow party members when I can afford it--and not to mention, part of being a rogue IS earning money so you can buy what you want. And I spend the vast majority of my wealth buying items at high prices.

I'm not going to apologize for optimizing my build. I am sorry that my analyses and advice have sparked a sort of mania within the community about numbers and optimization, but I'm not sorry for pursuing a style of gameplay that I enjoy. I laid down a substantial amount of cash for an item what works well with my build, and I try to use my abilities responsibly to aid my party--note how I follow orders even when it's likely to cost me a shot at Overkill. Sure I'll complain, but EVERYONE complains about something, and I don't see why I should have to suppress my opinion just because I have different problems than other people. Tons of money =/= no problems, as pretty much every lotto winner could tell you.

I don't make >> 400 gold in single hits. And battles can be easily adapted to give me a challenge, fixing the economy because thousands of gold from every battle is hard. (Guts makes like 200 gold a battle these days, keep that in mind).

I don't see how the economy can be "broken" in Heroica. By...someone earning more money than other people, which they can then spend to improve their abilities? By that logic basic Rogues "broke" the economy of Heroica right from the start. It doesn't make sense to me.

When the person who DOES make 400 Gold on an incredibly Lucky and unlikely scenario who has specifically optimized his build to be able to do it STILL has to budget his money down to the last coin, I don't think the situation is unbalanced.

Am I hard to balance for? Yes, particularly if I'm at a higher level than most of the rest of the party. But it IS still possible to walk all over me, as Endgame himself managed to do before he reduced the immunities (probably too much in the case of the chromoids, as even I'll admit). And as long as both extremes exist, there are ways to sit in the middle.

Jebediahs, by that logic raiders should not have had to be nerfed. (they had to be nerfed)

I'll say this once, and in the future, I will deny this every time, but rogue classes have a clear advantage and are easily the most powerful class in Heroica. Heroica is not balanced by any means, but playing a rogue is the most flexible, and easy way to become powerful in this game. Getting gold is an actual issue for non rogue classes, or people that never dual classed into rogue. The only easy way for those people to get a decent amount of gold is the Fields, and that's not everyone's cup of tea. In a game where a lot of power (and flexibility) comes from gold, this seems like a problem. Of course it's not so bad as before the raiders nerf, thousands of gold in a battle is not okay by any stretch, where someone else might get barely 50 in a whole quest. Rogues have that advantage, yet from the advanced classes onwards don't suffer in terms of power modifiers (e.g. attacks or roles). Rogue I'd say is the least powerful basic class if you don't take the gold into account. This is not the reason we have so many rogues, I like to think it's for roleplaying reasons, rogues are hip with the kids. Overkill gloves basically give you the power of being a rogue (probably more powerful even that that), e.g. lots of gold if used remotely right, but can be carried by anyone, even rogue classes themselves, effectively turning them into a double rogue. Meaning you'll get effectively twice the gold a regular rogue would get, which is already a multiplier of what non rogue classes get. What I am getting at is this: Rogues and their advanced classes are overpowered. Overkill gloves are overpowered. Together, they create Arthur, the soon to be Personification of Mercutio, the patron of the rich.

And Endgame, that seems fair to me.

Believe me, Arthur is not the Personification of Mercutio. You'll see that person (well, not in terms of wealth, but in terms of personality) in my Quest, if I can ever finish the last three sets. [/spoilers]

Everything can be countered. There are exactly two pairs of the gloves in existence, and similar to Healing Staves, I doubt any more are going to be made. Immunity to Fragile halves the potential for Overkill, which Endgame has been using very fairly so far. When I leave Mage classes behind (which I will be doing as soon as I can actually do so), my elemental advantages will disappear. When I go Mystic Knight, I'll be spending even more on Tonics than I already do. Hell, I'll voluntarily give up Mead if it will make people stop trying to nerf me--which has happened on at least three occasions I can remember in recent history. It's getting kind of ridiculous.

Part of it, I'm sure, is that I'm so ridiculously active in Heroica, which makes me a high-profile figure, which means my actions are watched my more people and thus have more opportunity for said people to find issue with them. But damn. These gloves ARE my primary source of income, since most of the time I can't seem to roll a damn SHIELD, and I have to spend a lot of money on upkeep.

You know what? I have a solution to any and all complaints against overpowered artifacts/special ability weapons: let's not have Artifacts and non-basic weapons sold in stores at all outside of the basic, official Marketplace. All Artifacts and special ability weapons have to be dropped by enemies, which limits the number of them that can ever exist. That should fix half of the problems people have been having about "OP-ness" right there.

[UsernameMDM]

So Scuba griping again because someone might be as strong as him at some point? Where did I hide that tiny violin...

[Endgame]

Ironically enough, this actually was a planned item for 70:

World's Smallest Violin: Can be played once per battle by Minstrels. The targetted enemy has a 50/50 chance of becoming Minimized for 3 rounds.

[UsernameMDM]

Ironically enough, this actually was a planned item for 70:

World's Smallest Violin: Can be played once per battle by Minstrels. The targetted enemy has a 50/50 chance of becoming Minimized for 3 rounds.

Only if it can be played with the forefinger & thumb!

[Kintobor]

Ironically enough, this actually was a planned item for 70:

World's Smallest Violin: Can be played once per battle by Minstrels. The targetted enemy has a 50/50 chance of becoming Minimized for 3 rounds.

Do you know how much I would pay for that?

[Endgame]

What happens if you minimize a newt?!

Only if it can be played with the forefinger & thumb!

Yes, exactly!

Edited June 30, 2013 by Endgame

[Dannylonglegs]

Do you know how much I would pay for that?

Why would you need that?

What happens if you minimize a newt?!

Tadpole? Mini-Newt?

But in all seriousness, a Newt cannot be minimized, as the effect itself states: "Target is minimized, etc..." and you can't apply the same effect twice.

Maybe the Overkill gloves could be (Suitable all-non-money-making classes)?

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited June 30, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Vash the Stampede]

Maybe the Overkill gloves could be (Suitable all-non-money-making classes)?

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Considering the number of overkill gloves in existence and the fact that Sandy OKed Arthur's strategy to get gold out of it I don't really see a problem with how it is now. No need to complicate the mattter. Sandy OKed it, shouldn't it be end of discussion.

[Dannylonglegs]

Considering the number of overkill gloves in existence and the fact that Sandy OKed Arthur's strategy to get gold out of it I don't really see a problem with how it is now. No need to complicate the mattter. Sandy OKed it, shouldn't it be end of discussion.

I do not have a problem with Arthur's strategy, I was just trying to add to the conversation. It seems some people are rather involved with the topic, so I figured I'd try to provide a possible solution.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Endgame]

Sandy OKed it, shouldn't it be end of discussion.

That is pretty much how I'm going to roll with it - besides my recent Chromoid blunder, Arthur's earning were actually pretty reasonable in the battles after I realized Arthur's strategy.