Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Endgame]

...Wow, that one was a bit obvious.

Maybe after her youth is gone, the Amazing Carletta Emilia Benita Priscilla Lucia Cecilia Maria Giliana Roberta Consuela Roalina Margarita Puerta joins the Syndicate?

[Pyrovisionary]

In my opinion the only thing that seems valid is a lowering of shield upgrade prices for knights. But not too much. Maybe upgrade costs are reduced by a third? But honestly. The fact that only knights can use shields is enough.

[UsernameMDM]

Before we start making changes to everything, let's take a look at each core classes' appeal, not counting any type of rolls (shield, crit, etc):

Knights - Shields

Rogues - Gold

Clerics - Healing

Mages - Gem/Spells

Barbarian - Natural Respite

Rangers - Ranged

Now, taking those into account, which of these seems to wax/wane as Advanced and Expert classes are available?

[CMP]

Now, taking those into account, which of these seems to wax/wane as Advanced and Expert classes are available?

Gold. Witches are the only class without access to both of what their Basic Classes offer. Black Knight, well, you still get to steal from enemies, it's just loot rather than gold.

[Scorpiox]

Before we start making changes to everything, let's take a look at each core classes' appeal, not counting any type of rolls (shield, crit, etc):

Knights - Shields

Rogues - Gold

Clerics - Healing

Mages - Gem/Spells

Barbarian - Natural Respite

Rangers - Ranged

Now, taking those into account, which of these seems to wax/wane as Advanced and Expert classes are available?

• SP seems to be easy to come by for most classes, yet upgradable shields are a bonus.
  
• Gold really comes into its own as a rogue selling point. Just to think, raiders and assassins especially are the strongest offensive options in the whole game because of their gold-gainin ability.
  
• Although the ability doesn't change, consumables leave clerics in less of a demand than previously.
  
• Elemental multipliers are readily available for all, but mages still manage to retain a flexibility that gives them an advantage.
  
• Useful, but not necessary or vital at all.
  
• The permanent half damage will always be a powerful asset.
  

[Flipz]

In my experience, few non-Mage Heroes pick a Mage AC at Level 15--I think you, Tomas, Elgar, and Alexis were the only ones that did it, and Elgar and Alexis both swapped out before Expert level.

Also, I'd argue that Barbarians' biggest strength isn't Natural Respite but rather Extra Critical Hits and other offensive abilities.

Leaving in just under half an hour--I'll see you all either tonight (if I'm lucky) or tomorrow (if I'm not).

[Scorpiox]

Also, I'd argue that Barbarians' biggest strength isn't Natural Respite but rather Extra Critical Hits and other offensive abilities.

Furthering the idea that raider is the most offensively powerful class available at advanced level. ECH + Massive gold farming = extreme power. That's why I'm going to consider any claims that any aspect of the class being weak invalid from now on.

I think that shaman doesn't get enough love to be honest. It's a very balanced offensive/support role with no major weaknesses, but I can understand why very few people decide to pick it. A barbarian front-row fighter would instinctively go for raider or berserker. A true healing cleric would choose druid as it is largely a step-up from the base class' healing powers. I picked shaman as it is naturally designed for a style similar to how I played Haldor as a cleric.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Scorpiox

[Palathadric]

Some day Pretzel will accept the dark side of the force and become a witch.

I don't think any of the classes particularly need a buff. For some it would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary, I think we just should avoid dropping artifacts that would enable a hero of a different class to significantly take over another classes' ability. I hope this makes some sense.

In my experience, few non-Mage Heroes pick a Mage AC at Level 15--I think you, Tomas, Elgar, and Alexis were the only ones that did it, and Elgar and Alexis both swapped out before Expert level.

Also, I'd argue that Barbarians' biggest strength isn't Natural Respite but rather Extra Critical Hits and other offensive abilities.

I would agree with you there. Extra Critical Hits are a lot more of a strength to Barbarians than their Natural Respite.

I think the reason many people don't go for Mage classes, it because Mages are pretty difficult to switch to. For instance, if I were to go Sage, I would have to sell off most of my weapons, disimbue the gems, etc. It's a class that takes quite a bit of money to switch to. Mages are usually favoured when it comes to gem drops, but to switch to a mage class at level 15 means that you probably won't have an incredible amount of gems in your possession.

I think an awful lot of heroes seem to have somewhat against mages as well. I know Pretzel is not the only one.

Furthering the idea that raider is the most offensively powerful class available at advanced level. ECH + Massive gold farming = extreme power. That's why I'm going to consider any claims that any aspect of the class being weak invalid from now on.

Besides the fact that Raider is the only Barbarian advanced class that retains the ability of damaging all enemies in a shield roll. Although I can't recall how the Berserker's updated special works.

Also, if a Shaman has an effect-dealing weapon, is that effect transferred in the blood ritual? I assumed not, but it would be interesting to know.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Palathadric

[Scorpiox]

Also, if a Shaman has an effect-dealing weapon, is that effect transferred in the blood ritual? I assumed not, but it would be interesting to know.

No it doesn't, although that is certainly a good idea.

[UsernameMDM]

Also, I'd argue that Barbarians' biggest strength isn't Natural Respite but rather Extra Critical Hits and other offensive abilities.

That may be true, but I said not counting any type of roll. If you start taking those into account for one class, then Ranger's Aim comes in, etc.

[Palathadric]

I vote to stay in the room."

I vote: Ecatsue (Eustace).

Let's lynch'm!

That may be true, but I said not counting any type of roll. If you start taking those into account for one class, then Ranger's Aim comes in, etc.

I figured as much, but there's not really a way that you can neglect the rolls when trying to balance things out.

[UsernameMDM]

I figured as much, but there's not really a way that you can neglect the rolls when trying to balance things out.

Didn't say that I was, Rather, trying to focus on the individual gimmick/appeal first before rolls are considered. It's kind of hard to differentiate as they are tied very closely together.

[Pyrovisionary]

Furthering the idea that raider is the most offensively powerful class available at advanced level.

Not necessarily, Let's put Gut's Extra critical hit against my Shield (Without dual strike). Guts=110 Sarge=118.

[Endgame]

Not necessarily, Let's put Gut's Extra critical hit against my Shield (Without dual strike). Guts=110 Sarge=118.

On a serious note, though, I wouldn't say that isa good comparison. If there are enough enemies in the room during a Raider's ravage, the Raider can do ludicrous amounts of damage.

[Scubacarrot]

That is incorrect. WP: 29 x 3 = 87 + 2 Power Bonus from artifact, + Level 26 = 115. And keep in mind Guts will be encouraged in 90% of the cases, and most of the enemies will be weak against his weapon as well.

[Palathadric]

Didn't say that I was, Rather, trying to focus on the individual gimmick/appeal first before rolls are considered. It's kind of hard to differentiate as they are tied very closely together.

Right.

[Pyrovisionary]

That is incorrect. WP: 29 x 3 = 87 + 2 Power Bonus from artifact, + Level 26 = 115. And keep in mind Guts will be encouraged in 90% of the cases, and most of the enemies will be weak against his weapon as well.

Oh, sorry, I thought that Lifestealer was Wp:28 and didn't take the other things into account!

[Scubacarrot]

It's nothing to apologize for. I'd say a Barbarian's attraction is not Natural Respite. For Guts at least due to Lifestealer, it's not even used, most of the time. It's convenient sometimes, but that's all. And there are often oppertunities for resting as well. Instead, a Barbarian's typical high damage output is the big attraction. Extra Critical hits are a wonderful thing.

[Dannylonglegs]

I'm back. This House moving stuff is a nightmare. We were supposed to move a week ago, but the buyers couldn't make the mortgage, so the move was postponed a week. \

Anywho. Am I the only one who thinks that the classes are all rather fairly balanced and that the gloves of overkill are not OP? Sure Flipz broke the system, but I didn't even think they were worth the money they cost. Unless you really go out of your way to break the stupid things, you can earn a modest amount of money (no more than a rogue or a non-witch advanced class of a rogue can.) Sure money is one of the best super powers, but that doesn't mean rogues need to be nerfed either. I'm a cleric, with absolutely no chance to make more money than I do through loot, and I'm fine with that. I really am fine with rogues making more money and being able to advance their weapons faster. That's how rogues work. Us others either need to wait for good Weapon drops (keep 'em coming QMs! No need to stop dropping weapons, IMO) or advance them by other means. Rogues make money. It's simple, effective and non-offensive. It seems like everyone's talking about mony now. It's like when I left everyone turned into a bunch of Fleurs. I sort of agree about the SP, but yeah, QMs should drop better shields every now and then. SP is not and has never really been only for knights, but they are the only ones that can make the best use of it. Some monsters can disregard SP, some can overrun SP through numbers, and some can overpower it with their levels. That's how it works.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited July 2, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Waterbrick Down]

Before we start making changes to everything, let's take a look at each core classes' appeal, not counting any type of rolls (shield, crit, etc):

Knights - Shields

Rogues - Gold

Clerics - Healing

Mages - Gem/Spells

Barbarian - Natural Respite

Rangers - Ranged

Now, taking those into account, which of these seems to wax/wane as Advanced and Expert classes are available?

Here's how I see it as time moves along and players advance.

Knights: Shields tend to lose their attractiveness as non-knight classes are able to acquire relatively comparable SP levels further on.

Rogues: No loss in appeal.

Clerics: Perhaps a little loss in their effectiveness as players are able to purchase restorative consumables more easily at higher levels.

Mages: A little loss in their gem appeal as a good number of advanced players will have acquired a few gem imbued weapons, but they still aren't as versatile as a mage.

Barbarians: Still able to deal more damage than the average class even at advanced levels.

Rangers: Still able to deal ranged damage more effectively than other classes at advanced levels.

Knights seem to me like the only class that loses their advantage as time wears on. I'm not calling for a buff, but perhaps away to keep the other classes from encroaching on it's territory.

[UsernameMDM]

May be a buff or a equalizer, but how about knights retain shield SP with enemies that ignore SP?

[Dannylonglegs]

May be a buff or a equalizer, but how about knights retain shield SP with enemies that ignore SP?

I don't like that. Not all enemies pierce SP, and in-fact, most shouldn't but those rare ones that do should be the bane of knights and force a strategy that allows the knight to target someone else while those with lower SP take on the opponent. If it comes to it though.I wouldn't mind if Shields were immune to SP disregarding, but other things like Armour and cloaks were not.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Edited July 2, 2013 by Dannylonglegs

[Palathadric]

Which is why high SP artifacts should not be created or should be suitable only for knights, right? I don't think those who bought artifacts over time should have to give them up now. Although if people really think something needs to be nerfed I suppose it wouldn't be terrible.

[Dannylonglegs]

Which is why high SP artifacts should not be created or should be suitable only for knights, right? I don't think those who bought artifacts over time should have to give them up now. Although if people really think something needs to be nerfed I suppose it wouldn't be terrible.

Yes, more Shield drops is a great solution. I dropped two nice ones in my first Quest, and I'll continue to cater to each of the classes. More artifacts that give SP to knights are alright to, like Knight's armour, or helmets usable by knights only. That doesn't mean that SP is the exclusive territory of Knights though. I think one of the best aspects of knights and many of their advanced classes is their ability to protect the party.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[UsernameMDM]

I'd rather buff than nerf.

I guess the reason I am honing in on the SP issue is that it seems to be a not uncommon for higher level enemies to ignore SP. I have yet to see an enemy that off the bat ignores gold, all elemental magics, negates healing, does not allow for class strength modifiers or is immune to ranged attacks. The knight's gimmick seems to be the most often negated.

But again, this seems to be a QM balancing issue.There are effects to deal with other class gimmicks (sealed, frail, weaken, etc), but these are usually bound up in enemy specials and not abilities.