Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Dannylonglegs]

I'd rather buff than nerf.

I guess the reason I am honing in on the SP issue is that it seems to be a not uncommon for higher level enemies to ignore SP. I have yet to see an enemy that off the bat ignores gold, all elemental magics, negates healing, does not allow for class strength modifiers or is immune to ranged attacks. The knight's gimmick seems to be the most often negated.

But again, this seems to be a QM balancing issue.There are effects to deal with other class gimmicks (sealed, frail, weaken, etc), but these are usually bound up in enemy specials and not abilities.

I agree. this seems to be more of a QM balancing issue. I also agree that SP-disregarding baddies should be limited to only a few per Quest, and that SP should be circumvented in different, fairer ways. Usually it's not so much a problem, in my mind, Endgame's recent battle nonwithstanding. I think a baddie that disregards gold collection would be very interesting... but I've seen plenty with very excluding elemental immunities (Ancients and Etherials make mages cry). Monsters that disregard row negate rangers' gimmic and those are more common than SP disregarders. Healing disregarders would be interesting to (ie: once hit by this special, target cannot be healed for the next round.) or something, but healing being disregarded would probably piss people off more than it would make a fight fair.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Rumble Strike]

The Raider is the only Barbarian Advanced class that keeps the Battle Frenzy-style AoE attack. I really missed that when Tarn switched to Bezerker, especially as he was up against multiple enemies a lot. To me, that's more important than the gold-gathering, although that is a very nice bonus.

[UsernameMDM]

I think a baddie that disregards gold collection would be very interesting...

And we would never hear the end of it from Scuba, but I am all for it.

but I've seen plenty with very excluding elemental immunities (Ancients and Etherials make mages cry).

Forgot ethereals could not be damage by elemental magic.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Or, maybe we should fix the way Rogues can get gold. I mean seriously, in Nova Tertia, Benji shoots a crossbow at a dinosaur and somehow magically produces all this gold. I don't have a solution yet, but it's something to think about.

[Flipz]

The Raider is the only Barbarian Advanced class that keeps the Battle Frenzy-style AoE attack. I really missed that when Tarn switched to Bezerker, especially as he was up against multiple enemies a lot. To me, that's more important than the gold-gathering, although that is a very nice bonus.

Actually, if the party is already Encouraged, Berserkers do get an AoE attack against them. It's one of the changes they got in part because of Q50.

[CMP]

Actually, if the party is already Encouraged, Berserkers do get an AoE attack against them. It's one of the changes they got in part because of Q50.

It's not an AoE.

[Flare]

Or, maybe we should fix the way Rogues can get gold. I mean seriously, in Nova Tertia, Benji shoots a crossbow at a dinosaur and somehow magically produces all this gold. I don't have a solution yet, but it's something to think about.

You see, the high pressure of my arrow hitting the dinosaurs scales, combined with the explosion of a body fluid sac coating the outside of the dinosaurs scales, causes a rapid chemical process turning the scales into pure 24k gold coins

[Flipz]

It's not an AoE.

It's not? Huh. Seems like it should be.

[Scubacarrot]

And we would never hear the end of it from Scuba, but I am all for it.

I'd be okay with it. I'd also be okay with a change that only let's you steal from humanoid enemies.

[Palathadric]

Healing disregarders would be interesting to (ie: once hit by this special, target cannot be healed for the next round.) or something, but healing being disregarded would probably piss people off more than it would make a fight fair.

Well, sealing makes clerics unable to heal, but the fact is that the clerics ability effects the party not the enemy. Of course, you could have an undead who is immune to healing.

I'd be okay with it. I'd also be okay with a change that only let's you steal from humanoid enemies.

That would be an interesting idea. I get a feeling that suddenly the Fields of Glory would become rather uninteresting for most rogue classes.

[Flipz]

I wouldn't mind specific enemies that disregard theft, but I would definitely not be cool with a "humanoids-only" theft rule. That's just a bit too crazy (and punishes existing and prospective Rogues for the sin of...what? Being of a certain class? Of having money...?).

To be honest, I don't see why people are getting so much into this when it comes to Gold. If you want Gold, go Rogue; if you're a Cleric, we owe you more money. I don't understand how some people having money is so harmful to the people who don't have it, especially considering that after Level 15, it's easy enough to switch to a Rogue AC if it bothers you so much. (Yes, Witches get the shaft in that regard, but honestly, if you picked Cleric as your starting class, you most likely enjoy helping others more than seeking your own riches anyway.)

Yes, I speak as a "have" in Heroica, but I've seen this phenomenon across all sorts of games and MMOs, where I am unilaterally among the have-nots, who despite this finds myself incredibly "meh" about ordinary wealth. Is it simple jealousy? Or is there some other social phenomenon at work here that I'm not aware of?

[Palathadric]

but honestly, if you picked Cleric as your starting class, you most likely enjoy helping others more than seeking your own riches anyway.

Yeah, I'm actually thinking the classes are fine the way they are. No sweat. I think it's just dropping less powerful SP artifacts that is the cure to the world's problems.

[LordoftheNoobs]

My character likes helping people, not me.

[Dannylonglegs]

I wouldn't mind specific enemies that disregard theft, but I would definitely not be cool with a "humanoids-only" theft rule. That's just a bit too crazy (and punishes existing and prospective Rogues for the sin of...what? Being of a certain class? Of having money...?).

To be honest, I don't see why people are getting so much into this when it comes to Gold. If you want Gold, go Rogue; if you're a Cleric, we owe you more money. I don't understand how some people having money is so harmful to the people who don't have it, especially considering that after Level 15, it's easy enough to switch to a Rogue AC if it bothers you so much. (Yes, Witches get the shaft in that regard, but honestly, if you picked Cleric as your starting class, you most likely enjoy helping others more than seeking your own riches anyway.)

Yes, I speak as a "have" in Heroica, but I've seen this phenomenon across all sorts of games and MMOs, where I am unilaterally among the have-nots, who despite this finds myself incredibly "meh" about ordinary wealth. Is it simple jealousy? Or is there some other social phenomenon at work here that I'm not aware of?

Exactly. Si non confectus, non reficiat. ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it.")

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Vash the Stampede]

Exactly. Si non confectus, non reficiat. ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it.")

~Insectoid Aristocrat

Or you could say it's obsolete and remake it causing hell for everyone for no good reason which seems to be happening.

[UsernameMDM]

For the record, I am against anyone being punished for being purposeful in making an awesome build (Arthur, Guts, etc). What I am for though, if that each class should be able to hold a distinct advantage over the others. This gets blurred when it comes to Advanced Classes. I think the Advanced Classes should truly combine the advantages of the Basic Classes.

What is your opinion? Do the Advanced Classes successfully combine the advantages of the Basic Classes?

[Vash the Stampede]

What is your opinion? Do the Advanced Classes successfully combine the advantages of the Basic Classes?

Except for maybe witches I think so, not to say witches don't have their appeal.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

The problem is not that Rogues get gold. It's that they make way too much for way too little effort. A rogue can buy a nostrum for 35 gold, and then make 100's or 1000's of gold a battle. And then there are the rest of us who can't even finish a quest with 500 gold to spare. Isn't that a little broken? As for jealousy, there probably is some. Come on, be serious, you would feel kind of silly if you roll a 6 because you can't afford a nostrum, and then the assassin next to you instakills and manages to rake in a couple hundred gold in one hit.

I am all for rogues stealing from humanoids only. That would prevent them (say, an assassin) from going to the Fields, and getting all this gold because there are so many enemies. It doesn't even make sense anyways for this not to be implemented. Some enemies we fight in Heroica are rats, or butterflies. Don't tell me you should make 100 gold for stabbing a butterfly.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Capt.JohnPaul

[Flare]

The problem is not that Rogues get gold. It's that they make way too much for way too little effort. A rogue can buy a nostrum for 35 gold, and then make 100's or 1000's of gold a battle. And then there are the rest of us who can't even finish a quest with 500 gold to spare. Isn't that a little broken? As for jealousy, there probably is some. Come on, be serious, you would feel kind of silly if you roll a 6 because you can't afford a nostrum, and then the assassin next to you instakills and manages to rake in a couple hundred gold in one hit.

I am all for rogues stealing from humanoids only. That would prevent them (say, an assassin) from going to the Fields, and getting all this gold because there are so many enemies. It doesn't even make sense anyways for this not to be implemented. Some enemies we fight in Heroica are rats, or butterflies. Don't tell me you should make 100 gold for stabbing a butterfly.

I already explained the process earlier...

Except for maybe witches I think so, not to say witches don't have their appeal.

Was going to say that.

[Tachyon]

I'd just say that hopefully the rogue who's on your quest in generous enough to donate gold to you.

[Scorpiox]

I'd just say that hopefully the rogue who's on your quest in generous enough to donate gold to you.

It's true that this could happen more. I appreciate how your character enjoys giving to others, and I'd like it is such an idea made it into other quests too. I think it was Scuba who suggested that rogue classes ought to pass consumables to non-rogue classes if a tough battle is on its way; it's not asking for them to donate riches or precious items - only allow teammates to fight more effectively in a party. On an average quest, a cleric would typically gain from 100-200 gold depending on drops, which for most is enough for a weapon upgrade and little else - certainly not enough for them to purchase many nostrums or smelling salts. If raiders and assassins were more generous as a whole then it would vastly improve battle effectiveness for a group.

I don't read all the quests by any means, but in recent history I have not seen a single money-maker offering out buffs to party members - besides Mizuki - whatsoever. I don't mean lending or expecting repayment, but simply boosting up another hero so that they can be better at their role.

[TheBoyWonder]

Romulus would and has done before (48) but all my weapon deals meant I didn't even have enough for one nostrum.

[Scubacarrot]

I don't read all the quests by any means, but in recent history I have not seen a single money-maker offering out buffs to party members - besides Mizuki - whatsoever. I don't mean lending or expecting repayment, but simply boosting up another hero so that they can be better at their role.

Guts does it sometimes, I remember him doing it in 52, an again in the beginning of 72. In the two quests between those, 58 and 63, it wasn't really neccesary I guess, because the battles weren't too hard.

So yeah, I'll definitely do it, but if you can just power through all the battles regardless, why would you?

[Dannylonglegs]

The problem is not that Rogues get gold. It's that they make way too much for way too little effort. A rogue can buy a nostrum for 35 gold, and then make 100's or 1000's of gold a battle. And then there are the rest of us who can't even finish a quest with 500 gold to spare. Isn't that a little broken? As for jealousy, there probably is some. Come on, be serious, you would feel kind of silly if you roll a 6 because you can't afford a nostrum, and then the assassin next to you instakills and manages to rake in a couple hundred gold in one hit.

I am all for rogues stealing from humanoids only. That would prevent them (say, an assassin) from going to the Fields, and getting all this gold because there are so many enemies. It doesn't even make sense anyways for this not to be implemented. Some enemies we fight in Heroica are rats, or butterflies. Don't tell me you should make 100 gold for stabbing a butterfly.

I disagree, I think. I'm fine with rogues making that money. They chose the class for that reason. I chose Cleric to heal (and to get on more quests because there aren't enough clerics and because I wanted to be a druid and Sandy told me that Druids were a combo of Cleric and Ranger.) Knights chose Knights to defend and protect. Barbarians chose that to deal damage. Rangers chose ranger to fight from the back and hit more frequently. Mages chose that to do magic on people. If the rogue is simply generating money from a butterfly, you can explain the rogue found money hidden in the hollow of a tree he stabbed or buried in the dirt that his lunge uncovered.

~Insectoid Aristocrat

[Scubacarrot]

If the rogue is simply generating money from a butterfly, you can explain the rogue found money hidden in the hollow of a tree he stabbed or buried in the dirt that his lunge uncovered.

I like to think because Guts does awesome dance moves, the money, raining from the sky, appreciation from the Gods themselves.