Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Waterbrick Down]

Not sure if in any of those scenarios that the rebels presented themselves as a better alternative to the establishment.

Again, most of the time the "claims" exist that they (the rebels) have been doing "good" and that they stand for the "majority" of the inhabitants, however due to story limitations the heroes can never be absolutely sure that those claims are truthful and thus they err on sticking with the establishment even when they might be in the wrong. As a QM culture, we seem stuck in a rut of always claiming that the rebels are doing good but never showing them doing any good and thus we end up with situations like Quest 75 or the main story arc of Wolfgang vs. Houses.

[Brickdoctor]

In all those cases, wasn't it the established government that hired the heroes? Maybe this trend will change in Quest 77, with an outside neutral faction being the employer.

I mean, if we threw heroes into a Star Wars situation where they were hired by the heroes (sort of as Han was hired by Obi-Wan) and then put into a situation where they initially saw things from the rebels' perspective instead of from the big bad government's perspective (because the rebels are the employers), I'm sure they would be much more likely to side with the rebels.

[joeshmoe554]

I mean, if we threw heroes into a Star Wars situation where they were hired by the heroes (sort of as Han was hired by Obi-Wan) and then put into a situation where they initially saw things from the rebels' perspective instead of from the big bad government's perspective (because the rebels are the employers), I'm sure they would be much more likely to side with the rebels.

Like quest 19 for example.

[Waterbrick Down]

In all those cases, wasn't it the established government that hired the heroes? Maybe this trend will change in Quest 77, with an outside neutral faction being the employer.

I mean, if we threw heroes into a Star Wars situation where they were hired by the heroes (sort of as Han was hired by Obi-Wan) and then put into a situation where they initially saw things from the rebels' perspective instead of from the big bad government's perspective (because the rebels are the employers), I'm sure they would be much more likely to side with the rebels.

I guess loyalty to one's employer's versus loyalty to ideals is a valid point.

[TheBoyWonder]

Don't count out Laticum,looks like we may side with the rebels.

[Waterbrick Down]

Like quest 19 for example.

In that case, the rebels were the ones in the wrong though. I don't think we've seen any case in which the heroes don't end up on the side of the establishment when all the facts about the rebels and the establishment are not known.

[Endgame]

A lot of the times, they have no reason to side with the rebels. Unfortunately, I fear the Wolfgang may be the most glaring of the bunch to suffer that flaw. I love your quests, Sandy, but it is just something I've noted.

[Flipz]

The whole situation of "rebels are scum" has had a major influence on Arthur as well. His failure to redeem/join Wren seems to be another factor in that trend on a larger scale; if Wren had won, I have no doubt that there would be more "rebel"-type groups taking their cues from her, and Arthur himself would have sided with the Wolfgang had the events of Quest 53 not convinced him that "Chaos is evil!!1!" and that the Hero's rightful place is in service to "the man".

Of course, that's eating away at him, because deep down he knows that he's gone too far in the other direction; he has a strong will and strong opinions, and that makes him inherently dangerous to any established authority--and he knows it. He might do well as a leader of an organization, but a mere footman? He's very obviously not cut out for that.

-----------------------

Unrelated question: where is Nova Tertia in relation to Xu? What about to Dastan? I have an awesome idea that could go either way, depending on which nation (or potentially, both nations, if it's midway between the two) would have an interest in it.

[Endgame]

Unrelated question: where is Nova Tertia in relation to Xu? What about to Dastan? I have an awesome idea that could go either way, depending on which nation (or potentially, both nations, if it's midway between the two) would have an interest in it.

Ninjas riding dinosaurs?

[CMP]

A lot of the times, they have no reason to side with the rebels. Unfortunately, I fear the Wolfgang may be the most glaring of the bunch to suffer that flaw. I love your quests, Sandy, but it is just something I've noted.

Then why the hell does everyone keep siding with them?!

Atramor's always been the kind of person to support a rebellion, but he's learned a lot from Dastan. This is more sensible option to him right now, it fits into his near-future roleplaying, and, well....I want that Galactic Armor.

[Endgame]

Is there anymore vocal supporters? I seem to remember the others expressing regret that the ever sided, and only Benji and Romulus have liked them - Romulus has turned on them, and flare mentioned betraying them as well.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Unrelated question: where is Nova Tertia in relation to Xu? What about to Dastan? I have an awesome idea that could go either way, depending on which nation (or potentially, both nations, if it's midway between the two) would have an interest in it.

In fact, no one really knows. An exact location was never decided upon, and it's not on the map. I always imagined it closer to the Free Islands, a bit SW, though nothing is concrete.

[JimBee]

It's interesting to note that in almost every single situation in which a rebel group has tried to overthrow the government and setup something new, heroes have almost always landed on the side of the established government in the end: Dastan, Council of the Blue Hand, Haddon, Duplova, and the 6 Houses. I think the only time the party has sided with the rebels is in Charis. Part of me wonders if it's all psychological in that none of the Heroes have ever had a chance to experience the "atrocities" committed by the currently ruling powers and thus never take the rebels seriously.

Indeed. Speaking strictly in-game, I think this trend fits the heroes of Heroica perfectly. Dreyrugr made a comment in Quest 69 (and the same has been said many other times I'm sure) that the "heroes" are actually just selfish and care little about government or the benefit of the common person. There's loot, XP, and power to be gained personally instead. Obviously Heroica is an organization of ragtag mercenaries rather than morally straight heroes. At least, that's how most quests and NPCs depict them. As long as you can pick up a sword, join Heroica and enjoy free food, immortality, and the opportunity for easy gold and power.

Also: For Wolfgang VS The Houses... I don't think many, if any, heroes would be too inclined to side with the Wolfgang over the houses at this point in the story. Their lackies have been portrayed as thugs, and the higher-ups haven't been shown to be plenty destructive as well. The three generals were just pawns, Baba is clearly evil, and Ulric seems to be little better.

The Wolfgang actually seems to be the exception when it comes to heroes siding with the established government: the Wolfgang is cool and so is their Expert Class, while the Town Watch is meh and has no EC (excluding Scuba quests).

[Flipz]

Son of a--

I'm going to miss the Shadeaux reputation, aren't I?

[Tachyon]

Speaking of Shadeaux reputation, I have a strange wish to take the brown egg just because UsernameMDM wants it

But chances are he'll take it before I make it to level 30.

By the way, Quest #80 feels like Romulus is the only person questing

Edited August 17, 2013 by Zakura

[Scorpiox]

By the way, Quest #80 feels like Romulus is the only person questing

I have made it clear innumerable times that i'm running on the extent of my 3G at the moment and thus find it difficult to make proper posts.

[Sandy]

Again, I really want to avoid making the moral choices in my quests about "good option vs. evil option". It's really down to a matter of opinion - like in Quest#75, should the heroes involve theirselves in the politics of a country that they have no connection with, or should they just do what they are told and finish the job they are hired for?

Your call.

A lot of the times, they have no reason to side with the rebels. Unfortunately, I fear the Wolfgang may be the most glaring of the bunch to suffer that flaw. I love your quests, Sandy, but it is just something I've noted.

If my depictions of the Hovels isn't enough to convince people that the 6 houses do not care for the citizens of Eubric (unless they have money), then I don't know what will.

And if you don't take my word that Wolfgang is helping out the people in the Hovels, then I cannot really do anything to convince you otherwise.

[Scubacarrot]

In character knowledge vs out of character knowledge. The Hovels are filled with thieves and conners as well. So... Not good enough. Rebels are scum.

[Sandy]

In character knowledge vs out of character knowledge. The Hovels are filled with thieves and conners as well. So... Not good enough. Rebels are scum.

You have to think about what made them thieves and conmen. Place yourself in a situation where you and your family have no income, no chance to work your way out of misery, and you are surrounded by thousands of people in the same position as you.

I feel sorry that I have to heavily underline and spell out the misery of the citizens of Eubric to some of you guys, but I'm trying the best I can to do portray it realistically.

Sorry, my questers, I'm pressed for time as I'm heading to see my family and friends in another city, so my quests will continue tomorrow. Quest#74 is just about done, and Quest#75 will have its final showdown. It's going to be epic!

[Scorpiox]

In my opinion there would be something wrong if a group of heroes rushed to join what Is on the surface just a group of thugs that has done little but try and kill people, in their experience, just because they themselves said that they are helping the citizens. In-character, the obvious reaction is "Yeah... right. How about you prove it?"

In-character vs Out-of-character knowledge...

[Endgame]

I think it goes under the "show, don't tell" rule. The Wolfgang say they're helping the hovels, but they never really diverge how, even when prodded. Their solution is 'Put Ulric on the throne", but he has been shown to be completely willing to dispose his best men and women just to put himself head. Not something many heroes could side with, even the more twisted ones. In quests,

-Donny was shown just filching off of people in the Fishmarket.

-Violetta manipulated people and sent people to die to break into the House's houses.

-They ignited a riot that only succeede in getting the rioters killed or mortally wounded.

-Endangered about half a dozen people who didn't even reside in Eubric and had no business with them.

In between the theivery, gambling with lives, and starting riots... we've never really "seen" the help provided. And that makes a big difference.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Endgame

[Kintobor]

Welcome to Heroica, Purpearljellyblob!

The problem can be fixed easily, someone needs to host a quest where the Wolfgang are shown in a favourable light. The quest doesn't have to revolve around the Wolfgang, but it needs to show what the city would benefit from if the Wolfgang became an influential power. Perhaps what the trio said is the truth, and none of the heroes have seen it yet.

[Kadabra]

Finally updated Aras' stats with his post-death trades. After an unplanned almost-year-long hiatus, I'm more inclined to revive (reincarnate would actually be a better word) him than roll up a new character, as it'd be easier to catch up on the major plot events (from what I can gather: Jun Ji Pei, thought dead, is being held hostage by a rebel group in Xu. Reno Bonaparte is dead, Nemo is losing confidence in his leadership abilities, Attina is likely to become Admiral soon. The Shadeaux/Hinckwell engagement was broken off after Baba planted hypnotic seeds of mistrust in the two families. Bluetooth is now a full grown man, Mabel still desperately wishes for his rescue. The three Wolfgang generals are dead. Anything I miss?) with an established char rather than trying to work in a new one's backstory. I'm going to have fun with Aras, though. Poor guy won't be catching a break when I bring him back, I've already got plans in mind as for what to do with him. Planning on doing some small builds and a redesign of the Minifig (you'll see why ) to commemorate his resurrection, so in the meantime enjoy a theme song about how after his death, nothing remains for him and he'll have to start again with only his possessions that weren't looted by Arthur and Ad-Hoh and most of his relationships destroyed by a year of him being dead. Looking forward to hopping back in.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Kadabra

[CMP]

I'm excited to see Arasmyth back, and welcome to Heroica, PPJB. :thumbup:

As far as the moral stuff goes, I don't feel Sandy outlines it as obviously as contemporary RPGs do. If people saw the Wolfgang as outright evil, there wouldn't be more heroes with good reputation with the Wolfgang than with the Ji Pei right now. I think there are a lot of factors to take in.

The problem can be fixed easily, someone needs to host a quest where the Wolfgang are shown in a favourable light. The quest doesn't have to revolve around the Wolfgang, but it needs to show what the city would benefit from if the Wolfgang became an influential power. Perhaps what the trio said is the truth, and none of the heroes have seen it yet.

That's where I suspect the main storyline is going.

[Brickdoctor]

Son of a--

I'm going to miss the Shadeaux reputation, aren't I?

You don't have to. He's leading one of the major factions in R'kilf; I'm sure you'll get the chance to see him. (Assuming Sandy, Zeph, and Wedge don't kill him or something.)