Waterbrick Down Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 And if you don't take my word that Wolfgang is helping out the people in the Hovels, then I cannot really do anything to convince you otherwise. Don't forget, rule number 1 of role-playing, never trust the DM/GM/QM. Welcome back Kadabra and welcome to PPJB! Quote
Scorpiox Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Meh... I don't think the wolfgang will be gaining any support until some of this 'help' is shown. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 As far as the moral stuff goes, I don't feel Sandy outlines it as obviously as contemporary RPGs do. If people saw the Wolfgang as outright evil, there wouldn't be more heroes with good reputation with the Wolfgang than with the Ji Pei right now. I think there are a lot of factors to take in. I haven't seen anyone really support the Wolfgang in character, besides some choices early in the game. (Even then, those have never really been capitilized on.) Even the vocal supporters of the Wolfgang no longer really side with them. Also: You really can't lose Wolfgang rep, minus outright betrayal, so that gives them a further advantage on the Ji Pei rep. (also the fact that quests with Ji Pei rep are surprisingly few and far between.) Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I haven't seen anyone really support the Wolfgang in character, besides some choices early in the game. (Even then, those have never really been capitilized on.) Even the vocal supporters of the Wolfgang no longer really side with them. I don't think they're going to or even meant to stack up against all six other houses in terms of support, but the way the main storyline seems to be set up....you're either supporting one of the six houses or the Wolfgang. It doesn't look like Ulric is bothered too much about Baba, so once she's out of the picture, they're not such an evil faction. They're the only ones with a sense of trying to help out the common people. Once their support among the poor of Eubric becomes more obvious in-Quest, I don't think heroes are going to be as enthusiastic about destroying them. I think it'll just take time for it to become clear how much the Wolfgang is actually a viable choice to side with. They're a widespread band of thugs right now, but as Quest 66 made clear, that's changing. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 (edited) Quest 66 actually made the Wolfgang seem more evil, to me. It showed Ulric was a manipulative jerk who was willing to spend and ruin lives to secure power, and an absolutely sinister witch was also at the helm. Edited August 17, 2013 by Endgame Quote
PsyKater Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Welcome, PJB! I am totally excited to see you joining the fun! Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Quest 66 actually made the Wolfgang seem more evil, to me. It showed Ulric was a manipulative jerk who was willing to spend and ruin lives to secure power, and an absolutely sinister witch was also at the helm. Who'd Ulric kill/ruin other than his devoted followers? Like I said, Baba's totally evil, but I don't think she's part of Ulric's plan. Quote
Waterbrick Down Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Quest 66 actually made the Wolfgang seem more evil, to me. It showed Ulric was a manipulative jerk who was willing to spend and ruin lives to secure power, and an absolutely sinister witch was also at the helm. Sounds like a description of the houses, minus the witch part. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Hey, houses don't have a bunch of ruthless thugs who just go out and commit crimes under their banner. Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Hey, houses don't have a bunch of ruthless thugs who just go out and commit crimes under their banner. Except for the Hinckwells (Quest 2), the Shadeuax (Quest 4), and the Bonapartes (Quest 58). Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I don't recall Quest 2 or 58 at all, and I read both of those twice. 4 is quite the fine line, though, I'll give you that. Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I don't recall Quest 2 or 58 at all, and I read both of those twice. In Quest 2 the Hinckwells hired the heroes the break into a Shadeuax warehouse, and in Quest 58 Reno nearly took over the Bonapartes by having his brother kidnapped...also for the Bonapartes, there's Quest 51. Even the Town Watch in Quest 33 is corrupt. Quote
Tachyon Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Quest #2 was corporate espionage wasn't it ? Still don't understand your reason for putting Quest#58 under there. Quote
UsernameMDM Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Except for the Hinckwells (Quest 2), the Shadeuax (Quest 4), and the Bonapartes (Quest 58). Were those crimes against the people or against the other Houses? Quote
Waterbrick Down Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Except for the Hinckwells (Quest 2), the Shadeuax (Quest 4), and the Bonapartes (Quest 58). We could add Ji Pei (Quest 15 in a round about way) and Guild of Invision (Quest 74). Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Were those crimes against the people or against the other Houses? Agreed. I would think that is house vs house, not house vs the general population. Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Were those crimes against the people or against the other Houses? The Houses, with a pretty blatant disregard for the common people who got tied up in them, where as far as I know the Wolfgang hasn't killed or been behind the death of a single person that wasn't already willing to die for the Wolfgang cause. (Except for Baba killing the Moon Elf.) Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 (edited) The seven corpses in 70 say otherwise, unfortunately. Also, I haven't seen the houses really disregard yet, and the Wolfgang certainly has no problem letting their low rankers die. (Donny complimented Sorrow on the pile of corpses he made.) Edited August 17, 2013 by Endgame Quote
Waterbrick Down Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Hey, houses don't have a bunch of ruthless thugs who just go out and commit crimes under their banner. You didn't say House vs. House and I'd constitute grave robbing as a crime against the general population. In the end I don't think this is all going to matter, what happens will happen and we'll eventually get to see the entire picture. Like Sandy has said, none of the factions are really the "good" guys or "bad" guys and I think the same could be said about the Wolfgang. Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Agreed. I would think that is house vs house, not house vs the general population. What makes the Wolfgang any different, other than they want to help the general population in the process of sabotaging the other houses? Quote
Waterbrick Down Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 The seven corpses in 70 say otherwise, unfortunately. Also, I haven't seen the houses really disregard yet, and the Wolfgang certainly has no problem letting their low rankers die. (Donny complimented Sorrow on the pile of corpses he made.) However you QM'd quest 70, so your depiction of the Wolfgang might not line up with what Sandy has in mind. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 However you QM'd quest 70, so your depiction of the Wolfgang might not line up with what Sandy has in mind. Fair enough, point taken. Perhaps my main problem is that they have bneen portrayed as thugs, marauders, highwaymen, thieves, and general trouble makers, as well as stirring up life-threatening scenarios and gambling with lives for almost the entire game, really. That was one of the reasons I only involved the Wolfgang once, and that was in 70 - even then the Syndicate was the main focus, not the Wolfgang. The fact that they help the hovels really doesn't match up with their portfolio, mooks or leaders. In character, they just seem to me too much like just a crime gang to be seen as a force that is helping Eubric. And so far, it hasn't been shown. Quote
CMP Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Perhaps my main problem is that they have bneen portrayed as thugs, marauders, highwaymen, thieves, and general trouble makers, as well as stirring up life-threatening scenarios and gambling with lives for almost the entire game, really. Maybe we haven't seen much of them helping the Hovels, but when have we seen them doing any of that stuff? Maybe they're not exactly model citizens, but they're not maniacs. Quote
Endgame Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Thugs: Pretty much most mook appearances. Marauders/Highwaymen: 73, Escort Service. Constantly attempted to off us and take the cart. Thieves: Ques6, Fishmarket, Quest 34, Traid Park. A lot of them have gold snatching specials as well. General Trouble Makers: Self explanatory, most appearances. Stirring Up Life Threatening Scenarios: The riots in 44. Gambling With Lives/Manipulation: Violetta (The Bunney Burglar/Crimson Assassin), Ulric (The generals, most of his underlings in general.) Quote
UsernameMDM Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 What makes the Wolfgang any different, other than they want to help the general population in the process of sabotaging the other houses? I'm still not buying that story. Quote
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