Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Kintobor]

Maybe we haven't seen much of them helping the Hovels, but when have we seen them doing any of that stuff?

Maybe they're not exactly model citizens, but they're not maniacs.

Ulric to me comes off as if he has an idea of what he wants to do, but doesn't know how he's going to do it. He's resorted to crime and what not to fuel his organization because it's the only thing he believes he can do to achieve his goals.The one glimpse we've seen of him shows us that he does want to assist the poor, but that wasn't seen by any of the characters.

[CMP]

Thugs: Pretty much most mook appearances.

Marauders/Highwaymen: 73, Escort Service. Constantly attempted to off us and take the cart.

Thieves: Ques6, Fishmarket, Quest 34, Traid Park. A lot of them have gold snatching specials as well.

General Trouble Makers: Self explanatory, most appearances.

Stirring Up Life Threatening Scenarios: The riots in 44.

Gambling With Lives/Manipulation: Violetta (The Bunney Burglar/Crimson Assassin), Ulric (The generals, most of his underlings in general.)

You have a point. But again, there's a cause behind all of it, they're not doing it out of spite or just to cause havoc.

[Endgame]

You have a point. But again, there's a cause behind all of it, they're not doing it out of spite or just to cause havoc.

That is their intention, though. They want to use the havoc to destroy the houses, by the looks of it.

[CMP]

That is their intention, though. They want to use the havoc to destroy the houses, by the looks of it.

Destroy the Houses maybe, but not the people.

[Endgame]

Destroy the Houses maybe, but not the people.

Collateral is collateral, and they are causing tons of it.

[CMP]

Collateral is collateral, and they are causing tons of it.

Again, I can't recall them killing anyone other than their own followers who know very well what they've gotten themselves into, and the two paid assassins in Quest 34 who should know by now the risks they take.

Edited August 17, 2013 by CallMePie

[Endgame]

They brainwashed everyone in the room in 66, not just the houses, and they've been known to just be skulking around in the park at night. Not to mention the examples I provided, only 2 of them really served to off the houses.

[CMP]

The Six Houses have done much worse collateral damage, by far.

[Endgame]

The Six Houses have done much worse collateral damage, by far.

Definitely not individually, and even combined is questionable, especially given Ulric's main goal.

[CMP]

They brainwashed everyone in the room in 66, not just the houses, and they've been known to just be skulking around in the park at night. Not to mention the examples I provided, only 2 of them really served to off the houses.

Their target was the houses. And again, nobody died besides the Moon Elf who I'm sure wasn't a specified target of the Wolfgang. And have they ever stolen from anyone that wasn't a hero?

Not every incident involving the Wolfgang is going to be one that was ordained by Ulric or one that serves the cause. Yes, there are many common thugs that associate themselves with the Wolfgang, but my point is, they're at least trying to help the common people. When have the Houses ever done so?

Definitely not individually, and even combined is questionable, especially given Ulric's main goal.

His main goal is to dismantle the Houses. If he wanted them all dead, nobody would've walked out of the Theatre in Quest 66 alive.

Obviously the path of the Wolfgang trying to gain enough momentum to make Eubric a better place for everyone involves more risk and probably more damage than the Houses trying to expand, but the ultimate goal is far nobler than what any of the Houses can claim.

[Endgame]

I'm certain that there wouldn't be just thugs hanging around Triad Park waiting for a hero to rob. Also, Donny is a self-proclaimed pcikpocket, and he was a figurehead. I'm sure he mugged some non-heroes.

Ordained by Ulric or not, an action under the wolfgang banner is done by the Wolfgang. That is another reason Sorrow, at any rate, opposes him: he cannot keep his own mooks under control, so how would he regulate an entire city?

Houses definitely have done some shady stuff, but Hinckwell's and Shadeaux's main goals are to sell their wares. Guild Of Invision sells their alchemy creations on the streets of Eubric, the Bonapartes keep pirates off the seas (albeit in a way detrimental to people), and the Ziegfrieds and Ji Pei are... pretty harmless, really. They're all helping Eubric in some way, but they end up tripping over eachother in the process.

Also, the riot from 44 was specifically made to kill the Bonapartes, if I recall.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Endgame

[CMP]

I'm certain that there wouldn't be just thugs hanging around Triad Park waiting for a hero to rob. Also, Donny is a self-proclaimed pcikpocket, and he was a figurehead. I'm sure he mugged some non-heroes.

Ordained by Ulric or not, an action under the wolfgang banner is done by the Wolfgang. That is another reason Sorrow, at any rate, opposes him: he cannot keep his own mooks under control, so how would he regulate an entire city?

Houses definitely have done some shady stuff, but Hinckwell's and Shadeaux's main goals are to sell their wares. Guild Of Invision sells their alchemy creations on the streets of Eubric, the Bonapartes keep pirates off the seas (albeit in a way detrimental to people), and the Ziegfrieds and Ji Pei are... pretty harmless, really. They're all helping Eubric in some way, but they end up tripping over eachother in the process.

Also, the riot from 44 was specifically made to kill the Bonapartes, if I recall.

Probably, but I doubt he mugs random innocent commoners for the hell of it.

In the epilogue he implied getting rid of his generals was kind of part of the plan of attacking the Theatre. And I think it was mentioned somewhere the thugs and such didn't really have a place in the new Eubric, but I'm not sure where.

Yes, and the Wolfgang's main goal is to help the common people, which is fairly clearly far less selfish.

I think so. And who took it upon themselves to slaughter all the innocent commoners?

[Endgame]

In the epilogue he implied getting rid of his generals was kind of part of the plan of attacking the Theatre. And I think it was mentioned somewhere the thugs and such didn't really have a place in the new Eubric, but I'm not sure where.

And we want a guy like that at the helm?! "You guys did what you needed to, so thank you for your service. Barbie, dear, please roast them while I work on some legislation."

[CMP]

And we want a guy like that at the helm?! "You guys did what you needed to, so thank you for your service. Barbie, dear, please roast them while I work on some legislation."

You want to keep people like Donny and Violetta around when you're trying to fix the city?

[Endgame]

Hey, leading some bad people is one thing. Using them as pawns and not really giving half a damn is like a cardinal sin, only being topped by Ether Cores.

[Kintobor]

You want to keep people like Donny and Violetta around when you're trying to fix the city?

Violetta, yes. Donny, no.

[Zepher]

Donny was going to help the heroes of 53 at some point, but I sadly cut the plot point from the story due to time constraints.

Updates later, folks! Got to head to work now, sorry. It is my last day, however, and then I have a week to move you guys along at a clipping pace! Sandy, I've started to work on what you've been egging me on about too.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Zepher

[Flipz]

Welcome to Heroica, Purpearljellyblob!

The problem can be fixed easily, someone needs to host a quest where the Wolfgang are shown in a favourable light. The quest doesn't have to revolve around the Wolfgang, but it needs to show what the city would benefit from if the Wolfgang became an influential power. Perhaps what the trio said is the truth, and none of the heroes have seen it yet.

Exactly. In Q70, we saw the Syndicate's records of helping the poor, and the members explained how they were doing good--and note that those records weren't intended for Heroes' eyes, so that made the claims more credible. We also saw them fighting the Wolfgang thugs and busting their drug-runners--the Syndicate seems to be doing a better job of helping the poor than the Wolfgang at this point.

Don't forget, rule number 1 of role-playing, never trust the DM/GM/QM.

Welcome back Kadabra and welcome to PPJB!

Meh... I don't think the wolfgang will be gaining any support until some of this 'help' is shown.

Right. "Show, don't tell," as it were.

Donny was going to help the heroes of 53 at some point, but I sadly cut the plot point from the story due to time constraints.

That disappearance cost him his life, you know...it was Arthur's exact point: "You're trying to help Eubric? Where were you when [Quest 53] happened? You liar." If he'd shown up on 53, it probably would have been enough for Arthur to side with the Wolfgang--getting kicked out of the Watch, of course, but still.

Of course, then we wouldn't have learned that Violetta was Karie's sister, and we wouldn't have gotten Quest 70, so...

I don't think they're going to or even meant to stack up against all six other houses in terms of support, but the way the main storyline seems to be set up....you're either supporting one of the six houses or the Wolfgang. It doesn't look like Ulric is bothered too much about Baba, so once she's out of the picture, they're not such an evil faction. They're the only ones with a sense of trying to help out the common people. Once their support among the poor of Eubric becomes more obvious in-Quest, I don't think heroes are going to be as enthusiastic about destroying them. I think it'll just take time for it to become clear how much the Wolfgang is actually a viable choice to side with. They're a widespread band of thugs right now, but as Quest 66 made clear, that's changing.

I agree with this. Look at Quest 70, after all.

Quest 66 actually made the Wolfgang seem more evil, to me. It showed Ulric was a manipulative jerk who was willing to spend and ruin lives to secure power, and an absolutely sinister witch was also at the helm.

The seven corpses in 70 say otherwise, unfortunately. Also, I haven't seen the houses really disregard yet, and the Wolfgang certainly has no problem letting their low rankers die. (Donny complimented Sorrow on the pile of corpses he made.)

Ulric to me comes off as if he has an idea of what he wants to do, but doesn't know how he's going to do it. He's resorted to crime and what not to fuel his organization because it's the only thing he believes he can do to achieve his goals.The one glimpse we've seen of him shows us that he does want to assist the poor, but that wasn't seen by any of the characters.

Collateral is collateral, and they are causing tons of it.

Exactly. Collateral is collateral.

Again, I can't recall them killing anyone other than their own followers who know very well what they've gotten themselves into, and the two paid assassins in Quest 34 who should know by now the risks they take.

Their target was the houses. And again, nobody died besides the Moon Elf who I'm sure wasn't a specified target of the Wolfgang. And have they ever stolen from anyone that wasn't a hero?

Obviously the path of the Wolfgang trying to gain enough momentum to make Eubric a better place for everyone involves more risk and probably more damage than the Houses trying to expand, but the ultimate goal is far nobler than what any of the Houses can claim.

Quest 44, the riot. Even if the Heroes hadn't been there, innocent civilians would have been killed by the Bonapartes, in justified self-defense--the Bonapartes have every right to try to save their own skin if someone's trying to murder them.

Funny--no one took that opinion of Arthur when he was trying to bring chaos into the world so he could use its power to save the city.

You want to keep people like Donny and Violetta around when you're trying to fix the city?

Hey, leading some bad people is one thing. Using them as pawns and not really giving half a damn is like a cardinal sin, only being topped by Ether Cores.

It's basic ethics:

"Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in that of another, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means." --Immanuel Kant, Groundwork of the Metaphysic of Morals

Ulric violates that. Big time.

[Scorpiox]

Woo hoo! I'm at last back from Ireland and in my lovely house - complete with its lovely internetz and my lovely free time. I shall hopefully be more active in Quest #80 from this point onwards. Many thanks to TBW for stepping into the breach and to CJP for being patient.

[CMP]

Funny--no one took that opinion of Arthur when he was trying to bring chaos into the world so he could use its power to save the city.

Well, Ulric's plan makes sense...

[Capt.JohnPaul]

Woo hoo! I'm at last back from Ireland and in my lovely house - complete with its lovely internetz and my lovely free time. I shall hopefully be more active in Quest #80 from this point onwards. Many thanks to TBW for stepping into the breach and to CJP for being patient.

Welcome back! No problem.

[Sandy]

Great to see all this analysis on the main storyline! Definitely gives me tips about what to focus on during the upcoming quests. I'm not trying to deny that the Wolfgang hasn't done criminal acts to further their cause - they are a criminal faction, after all - but their whole point is to be the "end justifies the means"-faction for people who like their character to think like that.

I never intended to make the Wolfgang alluring for all the players to side with, but I'm trying to split the support pretty evenly among all seven houses.

Oh, and before I forget, a hearty welcome into the game, Purpearljellyblob! It seems your character has the same fashion sense as mine. And a warm welcome back into the game, Kadabra!

Exactly. In Q70, we saw the Syndicate's records of helping the poor, and the members explained how they were doing good--and note that those records weren't intended for Heroes' eyes, so that made the claims more credible. We also saw them fighting the Wolfgang thugs and busting their drug-runners--the Syndicate seems to be doing a better job of helping the poor than the Wolfgang at this point.

If that's the impression you got from the quest, I have to express my resentment over Endgame "stealing my thunder", so to speak. I specifically instructed Endgame not to try to show his own faction as more capable and "better" than the Wolfgang, and I thought we reached a common understanding, but I guess what has happened has happened.

I guess just have to restrict other QMs access to the faction even more from now on, so the main storyline won't be ruined by them unbeknowingly. It's just not physically possible for me to monitor and oversee each quest as they progress, so I usually request to know the main story points in advance before accepting the quest to avoid any contradictions with my stories.

And if conflicting storylines do happen, let it be known that my quests are canon.

[Endgame]

Great to see all this analysis on the main storyline! Definitely gives me tips about what to focus on during the upcoming quests. I'm not trying to deny that the Wolfgang hasn't done criminal acts to further their cause - they are a criminal faction, after all - but their whole point is to be the "end justifies the means"-faction for people who like their character to think like that.

I never intended to make the Wolfgang alluring for all the players to side with, but I'm trying to split the support pretty evenly among all seven houses.

Oh, and before I forget, a hearty welcome into the game, Purpearljellyblob! It seems your character has the same fashion sense as mine. And a warm welcome back into the game, Kadabra!

If that's the impression you got from the quest, I have to express my resentment over Endgame "stealing my thunder", so to speak. I specifically instructed Endgame not to try to show his own faction as more capable and "better" than the Wolfgang, and I thought we reached a common understanding, but I guess what has happened has happened.

I guess just have to restrict other QMs access to the faction even more from now on, so the main storyline won't be ruined by them unbeknowingly. It's just not physically possible for me to monitor and oversee each quest as they progress, so I usually request to know the main story points in advance before accepting the quest to avoid any contradictions with my stories.

And if conflicting storylines do happen, let it be known that my quests are canon.

You asked me to keep the number of Syndicate members low, and I did - they were only 14, and several of them were killed. And the amount of help the Wolfgang provided to the Hovels was never really defined, so I had no way of knowing if their aid was outclassing them or not.

However, in no way would the Syndicate be able to dismantle the Wolfgang head on. They win their battles and do their busts from what basically equates to guerilla warfare. As a whole they do not have nearly as much firepower as the Wolfgang, so they are forced to be tactical. The Stealer Of Senses/Masson Cour may be a paragon, he'd never be able to take Ulric or Baba 1 on 1, considering how the power of the Wolfgang has been escalating quest from quest.

[Sandy]

You asked me to keep the number of Syndicate members low, and I did - they were only 14, and several of them were killed. And the amount of help the Wolfgang provided to the Hovels was never really defined, so I had no way of knowing if their aid was outclassing them or not.

But you never told me the Syndicate was benefactors to the poor in the first place, you just posed them as a rivalling criminal gang. I just feel like you took my storyline (which you were aware of) and put it into a faction of your own. Which is not cool. There's already one "steal from the rich, give to the poor"-crime gang in Eubric, why did you have to go and create another?

I've been very liberal with other QMs to allow them to tell the stories they want to tell and build the world of this game the way they want to, but I want all of you to realize that I also have a story to tell, so these sort of incidents feel like someone's trying to "steal the limelight" from my story.

Just to be clear, I'm not mad about it or anything, just a tad disappointed. Like I said, I need to be more specific in the future.

[Scorpiox]

Just an opinion of mine to give:

As much as I respect what Endgame has done in creating the Syndicate, I find it difficult to see how they fit into the game world. That's the real difficulty with a non-Sandy QM creating a prominent Eubric faction, if the Wolfgang conflict comes to a head everyone will be asking "why does the Syndicate do nothing?". As all of the main-story quests will be run by Sandy, sometimes there's little room left for other QMs to play with the city in any big way. The Wren Saga worked so well because of how Zepher co-operated with other QMs to write a tale that could have big consequences but not leave plot holes like that.

Although I do wonder what would have happened if Wren had succeeded and the heroes been killed. Would the game be really changed? Or would Wren have just blown up?