Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Kadabra]

He has read far more than he really should have been capable of and is thus very book smart but I get the feeling that Arthur is still very naive about the world. He knows what he wants but he doen't know how to get there, which is why he has all of these illogical ideas. At least, that's the feeling I get from reading his Quests.

[Zepher]

As I'm sure Scuba will remind you, Wren was no Goddess.

I do miss her, though. I think that many other QMs can back me up in this - when your story gets mentioned (as Wren does from time to time) it makes your heart swell a little bit.

[Flare]

He's plenty smart, just often very illogical when it comes to trying to save stuff. You can't save a city by destroying it over time, you can't do it by trying a depose a god of chaos, and you certainly can't do it by worshiping a goddess that fully admits she want to sow all the chaos she can.

You just realized that Arthur thinks illogically?

[CMP]

As I'm sure Scuba will remind you, Wren was no Goddess.

Whatever the hell she was, she was crazy and powerful and wanted to destroy stuff for the sake of it being beautiful in her eyes. Following her isn't a great way to try and save anything.

[Scorpiox]

"Chaos" isn't the same as "anarchy". At its core, the Chaotic alignment is about self-reliance and personal freedom. Instead of relying on Orderly institutions and governments, the Chaotic user focuses on using their free will and personal intellect to solve their problems. They despise institutions that try to control what people think and do (like all organized institutions do to some extent).

Robin Hood is the best-known popular example of a non-villainous Chaotic outlook. Robin Hood espouses reliance on the individual and your own personal friends, in opposition to Prince John and the Sheriff of Nottington, who control the populace through a combination of bullying and over-taxation. Two even better examples of Chaotic Good and Lawful (Orderly) Evil characters are Elan (Chaotic good) and General Tarquin (Lawful Evil) from Order of the Stick.

Arthur's plan was to release Chaos--in controllable, reasonable amounts (he underestimated Wren) so that, when the time came and Eubric faced destruction, the people would have adapted to a life of Chaos and thus been able to fend for themselves/survive anything.

cha·os

/ˈkāäs/

Noun

• Complete disorder and confusion.
  
• Behavior so unpredictable as to appear random, owing to great sensitivity to small changes in conditions.
  

I'm almost certain that chaos has nothing to do with self-reliance. That's not what chaos is. There's nothing to say that a chaotic Eubric wouldn't just be fires/looting/rape/murder/muggings left right and centre with no authority to control it. Chaos is about a breakdown of society, not a group of people dealing with things for themselves.

And as for Robin Hood: Well, he never tried to make people think for themselves or solve their own problems. Robin's approach was to get a couple of men and rob caravans, and steal from nobility, in order to hand it out to the poor. Robin Hood's philosophy was to fight for those who were too weak to fight, the guys who were still getting killed every time he went AWOL. And don't forget, Hood was never about changing the world, or even Nottingham - he was only ever making life easier for the peasants until King Richard came back from the crusades. Robin didn't want chaos (I believe), he simply wanted a better, less violent bloke to come and take back over.

Well, how could one 'get people used to the idea of chaos' in Arthur's philosophy? Chaos means the complete absence or order - it's impossible to have semi-chaos in a city. And anyhow, chaos doesn't evolve people into instant badarses, they'd just end up more victimized than before.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Scorpiox

[Kadabra]

Chaos as a word in English is just 'randomness' with a negative connotation. Arthur appears to believe differently. In DnD, the 'Chaotic' alignment refers to the philosophy of 'the ends justify the means' for Good, 'I do what I want' for Neutral, and 'lol, rape and murder just for teh evulz' for Evil. Arthur's definition of independence and self reliance is really just a disdain for government and conformity and authorities and has nothing to do with DnD chaos or the actual meaning of the word chaos, but that's okay because Chaos in Heroica is a different thing altogether than chaos the word or Chaotic the alignment. And we've all agreed, I think, that Arthur's philosophy is logically unsound - it's the way Arthur thinks, not the way Flipz thinks. As for Robin Hood... He was never about disdain for government. A key part of his character is his love and respect for King Richard. Robin Hood's story is about the contrast between tyranny (John) and benevolent rulership (Richard) and the comforting idea of a hero who stands up for the little guy instead of only doing things like slaying dragons and saving princesses. In fact, Robon Hood is meant to promote the hereditary ruling class, according to Wikipedia.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Kadabra

[CMP]

Chaos as a word in English is just 'randomness' with a negative connotation. Arthur appears to believe differently. In DnD, the 'Chaotic' alignment refers to the philosophy of 'the ends justify the means' for Good, 'I do what I want' for Neutral, and 'lol, rape and murder just for teh evulz' for Evil.

Yeah, Chaotic doesn't necessarily mean pure Chaos in this context.

[Chromeknight]

Ninja'd.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Chromeknight

[CMP]

Wren was all about pure Chaos, though.

[Scorpiox]

Chaos as a word in English is just 'randomness' with a negative connotation. Arthur appears to believe differently. In DnD, the 'Chaotic' alignment refers to the philosophy of 'the ends justify the means' for Good, 'I do what I want' for Neutral, and 'lol, rape and murder just for teh evulz' for Evil. Arthur's definition of independence and self reliance is really just a disdain for government and conformity and authorities and has nothing to do with DnD chaos or the actual meaning of the word chaos, but that's okay because Chaos in Heroica is a different thing altogether than chaos the word or Chaotic the alignment. And we've all agreed, I think, that Arthur's philosophy is logically unsound - it's the way Arthur thinks, not the way Flipz thinks. As for Robin Hood... He was never about disdain for government. A key part of his character is his love and respect for King Richard. Robin Hood's story is about the contrast between tyranny (John) and benevolent rulership (Richard) and the comforting idea of a hero who stands up for the little guy instead of only doing things like slaying dragons and saving princesses. In fact, Robon Hood is meant to promote the hereditary ruling class, according to Wikipedia.

I think that you've got your head screwed on properly.

But I want to make this clear: my post on chaos, philosophy and Robin Longstride was in no way meant to be disrespectful to Flipz and how he writes his character. Characters can get things wrong, people get things wrong - in fact, mistakes make a character more realistic. Misguidedness (is this a word?) very much so.

In my opinion; perhaps we could enter this into the Heroica Mental Player's Dictionary - 1st Edition: Chaos (upper case) for the noun of Wren and Arthur's philosophy and world views - chaos (lower case) for the correct English meaning of the word. That sound fair?

[Kadabra]

Exactly. Chaos and chaos are entirely different, and Chaotic is tangentially related to both of them.

[Scubacarrot]

Able to kill every hero in the hall, unable to pronounce opportunity. Figures.

[Endgame]

I think Sorrow would actually be a decent match for Guts.

[CMP]

For the record, I'm pretty sure there's like a dozen heroes at the table right now, a lot of listening is happening anyway.

Edited September 16, 2013 by CallMePie

[Scubacarrot]

For the record, I'm pretty sure there's like a dozen heroes at the table right now, a lot of listening is happening anyway.

They can listen, they can't steal the moment though. It's like that one song.

I think Sorrow would actually be a decent match for Guts.

Guts is immune to Sorrow's weapons, Sorrow is not to Guts's.

[Endgame]

I never realized you embedded so much into those dancing shoes.

[Zepher]

With Nyx and Guts suring up their relationship, and Nerwen and Boomingham doing the same, I think we're racing ever closer to the quest where the four of them finally work together.

[Rumble Strike]

Now that'd be a party!

[Scubacarrot]

Indeed, there'd just be so much there.

[Kintobor]

De equip the dancing shoes and he's powerless. If you want to puncture Guts's defence, you need to de-equip the Dancing Shoes, which, at the time of this post, isn't possible player on player.

Anti Guts Pendant (Accessory- Negates the effects of Guts Holla's Dancing Shoes)

[Scubacarrot]

Meh, his offensive capabilities would still be intact, and they are the best in the game as of now, for straight up damage.

[Kintobor]

What about Tesni? I'd debate about whether it's Guts or Tesni as to who has the best offence.

[CMP]

Guts. Tesni has a ton of fantastic weapons, but nothing can beat up to four Ravages in a row.

[Scubacarrot]

Keep in mind Ravage recently got buffed.

[Endgame]

Sorrow has back row advantage on both of them and the second strongest Weapon (WP wise) in the game - if Guts lost the shoes, I'd be very interested in seeing the results of their bout.

Also, Guts is most likely not the strongest thing on Uland currently. I have a Level 200+ enemy lined up for 81.