Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Scorpiox]

Saladin+Aladdin=Saladdin

You should know I love making references like this by now.

Yeah! Obscure history references are the best kind!

[Brickdoctor]

I would almost venture to say that the axe is ridiculously overpowered, and should be shifted down to WP: 20, but...

WP: 20 weapons are becoming common enough that there'd be nothing special about a WP: 20 weapon that you could only use every other turn. The Greatsword of Lion Nobles was dropped when WP: 10 weapons were becoming common, and you got double that and used it half as often.

[Scorpiox]

WP: 20 weapons are becoming common enough that there'd be nothing special about a WP: 20 weapon that you could only use every other turn. The Greatsword of Lion Nobles was dropped when WP: 10 weapons were becoming common, and you got double that and used it half as often.

Are they? I've never come into contact with any of these.

[Palathadric]

Giving a WP:20 weapon when WP:10 are common place, but WP:40 is many 1000s of gold worth of upgrades better than WP:20.

[PsyKater]

There is a huge discrepancy between sale value and upgrade costs. I really think this is a lack of the system. It nerfs rogues a bit as their high costs in upgrading don't pay out in sale price. But a rogue nerf isn't that bad... But it makes upgrading for classes that dont gain gold practically a stupid choice.

[Scorpiox]

Giving a WP:20 weapon when WP:10 are common place, but WP:40 is many 1000s of gold worth of upgrades better than WP:20.

True. Owing to the way weapon upgrade prices are exponential in increase, WP: 40 is FAR higher in value than simply twice WP: 20. Claiming that WP: 40 drops are justified as apparently WP: 20 weapons are common (which isn't true) is incorrect - the difference is much greater than purely twice.

There is a huge discrepancy between sale value and upgrade costs. I really think this is a lack of the system. It nerfs rogues a bit as their high costs in upgrading don't pay out in sale price. But a rogue nerf isn't that bad... But it makes upgrading for classes that dont gain gold practically a stupid choice.

I'm not sure that the community could cope with another rogue reduction of power.

[PsyKater]

I'm not sure if I was clear in my words. Got back from work and I am tired.

From the upgrading pov the weapon value increases exponentially - just as you said. But from the sale pov the value increases just linear.

Examples:

Buy at market / Sell at market / Relation

WP 5: 50 / 25 / x2

WP 10: 450 / 50 / x9

WP 20: 2000 / 100 / x20

WP 40: 8100 / 200 / x405

If I wanted to get an WP:20 axe at the marketplace, I'd have to pay 2000 Gold. I paid much less. But Tesni got still more gold than by selling at the market.

Regarding the Rogue nerf: I was saying that this IS a rogue nerf already. Only

Rogues can spend so much money on weapon upgrades, but it doesn't pay out when they want to sell it.

The reason is that the secondaey market is broken. You dont have to buy a high wp weapon as you can wait for another one coming

Or am I thinking wrong here?

[Scorpiox]

Okay, it's time for some maths.

• The total cost for upgrading a WP: 10 weapon to WP: 20 is 1550 gold pieces.
  
• The total cost for upgrading a WP: 20 Weapon to WP: 40 is 6100 gold pieces.
  
• Twice 1550 is 3100. That's 3000 clear.
  

Is that interpretable for everyone? This makes it rather clear to me at least that dropping slowed WP: 20 weapons when WP: 10 weapons were common is a HUGELY different kettle of fish to dropping WP: 40 weapons in a similar situation.

My opinion: the folks who are passing up that WP: 40 weapon are mad, nothing else. As WBD said, just grab yourself some winged sandals or imbue a scroll, and you've got your hands on a pretty nice prize. Seriously, no-one should be thinking of giving that away!

Or am I thinking wrong here?

No, you're quite right.

[Brickdoctor]

Giving a WP:20 weapon when WP:10 are common place, but WP:40 is many 1000s of gold worth of upgrades better than WP:20.

The price has nothing to do with it. You had a WP: 20 weapon instead of using a WP: 10 weapon twice. You now have a WP: 40 weapon instead of using a WP: 20 weapon twice. (And considering that Level is typically higher than WP, you probably end up dealing around the same Damage or less Damage most of the time.) If you want to sell it for its Gold value, fine; nobody's actually going to pay what it's worth in upgrades. You'd probably get something comparable to what should've been dropped from a boss after a quest this long.

[Scorpiox]

The price has nothing to do with it.

How does it not? By dropping this weapon, one is not only granting the heroes a WP: 40 weapon (not the equivalent of a WP: 20 weapon twice, as immunity is pretty easy to come by), but also an object worth many thousands of gold. I would say that even the most naive of sellers could flog that thing for at least 2000 gold, which is FAR more than a non-rogue class earns in two quests. No matter how you think of it, that axe is an extremely valuable drop and not to be sniffed at. I honestly cannot believe that some people thought this an uninteresting drop.

And finally: WP: 20 drops are NOT common, let alone without negative effects.

[Waterbrick Down]

How does it not? By dropping this weapon, one is not only granting the heroes a WP: 40 weapon (not the equivalent of a WP: 20 weapon twice, as immunity is pretty easy to come by), but also an object worth many thousands of gold. I would say that even the most naive of sellers could flog that thing for at least 2000 gold, which is FAR more than a non-rogue class earns in two quests. No matter how you think of it, that axe is an extremely valuable drop and not to be sniffed at. I honestly cannot believe that some people thought this an uninteresting drop.

And finally: WP: 20 drops are NOT common, let alone without negative effects.

For what it's worth, these things are just dropping out of thin air though. This is a unique item belonging to a boss at the end of a quest. I doubt you'll see anything near as valuable for the rest of the quest.

[Palathadric]

But it makes upgrading for classes that dont gain gold practically a stupid choice.

Exactly. Which is why I think powerful weapons should be dropped only very rarely, and by that, I consider WP: 15 already being powerful.

Is it just me or has the cost of powerful weapons just dropped drastically recently?

[Waterbrick Down]

Exactly. Which is why I think powerful weapons should be dropped only very rarely, and by that, I consider WP: 15 already being powerful.

Is it just me or has the cost of powerful weapons just dropped drastically recently?

Powerful weapons have never been for sale, though it might be an interesting counter measure to consider, i.e. what would happen if WP 40 were for sale in the market?

[Palathadric]

For what it's worth, these things are just dropping out of thin air though. This is a unique item belonging to a boss at the end of a quest. I doubt you'll see anything near as valuable for the rest of the quest.

Still, why not make it WP: 30 or WP:25? I would still pay a ton for such a weapon if it were actually suitable for Pretzel.

Powerful weapons have never been for sale, though it might be an interesting counter measure to consider, i.e. what would happen if WP 40 were for sale in the market?

I don't mean for sale in the Marketplace, but what kind of gold heroes expect for selling a powerful weapon.

[Flipz]

Just to point out: on a SHIELD, Skrall could potentially deal 1134 damage with that axe. Now imagine him wearing Overkill Gloves...

Also, Sandy, Atramor's Critical Hit was miscalculated; it strikes a random opponent (but still counts as targeting the original enemy for purposes of Free Hits).

[Zepher]

Flipz, are you still planning to feature playable flashbacks in your quests? I think that's a very cool idea, and would be super interested to see how it plays out.

[Flipz]

Flipz, are you still planning to feature playable flashbacks in your quests? I think that's a very cool idea, and would be super interested to see how it plays out.

Oh, most definitely.

[Scubacarrot]

Hmm. I didn't realize winged sandals were a thing, but I think the scroll of slowing is not a common scroll (elphaba?) anyway, so that's fine. You'd still have to give up an artifact slot and you'd be unable to be hastened.

It seems fine to me.

[JimBee]

Just to point out: on a SHIELD, Skrall could potentially deal 1134 damage with that axe. Now imagine him wearing Overkill Gloves...

Upwards of that, I would say. In the Fields he was dealing two or three thousand damage with elemental and favor multipliers.

[Tachyon]

Just stop dropping powerful loot.

[Scubacarrot]

Or maybe people should run all items through Sandy and agree that the ones that fall through the cracks we can still shout at? Mistakes will be made, but powerful loot is also cool loot. And loot is awesome,

[Zepher]

I actually have always run all items through Sandy. I think it's a good practice.

I also wouldn't mind a nerf on the axe, just to put my thoughts out there. I've kind of given up on complaining about items, but I can understand them, and as the current owner, I certainly don't mind it if it has to happen.

Edited November 4, 2013 by Zepher

[Tachyon]

Nerf all loot.

[Flipz]

I actually have always run all items through Sandy. I think it's a good practice.

I also wouldn't mind a nerf on the axe, just to put my thoughts out there. I've kind of given up on complaining about items, but I can understand them, and as the current owner, I certainly don't mind it if it has to happen.

Sandy's required it for some time now, though obviously it's not always been followed.

Hey, if I could use it in my ACs, I would have taken it. But I can't, so...

[Zepher]

I can't either, but Nerwen clearly didn't want it.