Heroica RPG General Discussion

[UsernameMDM]

We'll be moving the quest along as soon as CMP gets back online.

Thanks! This really all stemmed from a misunderstanding I had, but it's turned into a neat RPG dialog.

[swils]

"Neat rpg dialog," "annoying pissing contest"... tomato tom-ah-to, I suppose. Through all of that I honestly couldn't tell if you were arguing in-character, or re-having the "should rogues share their gold" argument but forcing it into an in-character perspective.

[Zepher]

You'll have to direct the complaint at Pie and I, really. I, at least, did think it was interesting. I trust Scuba and MDM to both be fair and level-headed and keep it in character. I can understand some characters disliking rogues keeping all the gold they get. If it had gone on much longer we would have stopped it, but really using up a day for a page or two of RPing is okay in my book.

[swils]

Oh, no argument with that. It just became difficult to tell if it was actually RP'ing or just arguing that same point but using their characters' voices.

[UsernameMDM]

It's all in character. Just making some philisophical/RPG points that were brought up in the mentioned Black Knight ability. Also pointing out how much rogues can earn in a fight vs those w/o the ability. Just to clarify, I do not think the rogues should put their stolen items in the loot pool or buy consumables for others, but at the same time I think they can forgo the standard loot gold.

[Zepher]

Update in a few hours, 88ers! I gotta go an errand or two. Feel free to roleplay the rowboat a little, but be ready to enter the frigid northern High Kingdoms very shortly. :grin: I'm excited to get you back.

[Kintobor]

WBD, at this point, it might be wise to start forcing the party to pay Hint Coins. Their Picarat score is mighty low.

[Waterbrick Down]

WBD, at this point, it might be wise to start forcing the party to pay Hint Coins. Their Picarat score is mighty low.

Just gave one in quest. When all else fails, build.

[Cryos]

WBD, at this point, it might be wise to start forcing the party to pay Hint Coins. Their Picarat score is mighty low.

You and your Layton references. The worst thing about this puzzle is that I KNOW the route is slapping me in the face somehwhere in

[Kintobor]

It's my favourite video game franchise next to Legend of Zelda, and it's one of my favourite franchises next to as of right now MLP. Yeah, I'm pretty obsessive over it.

[Waterbrick Down]

One of these days I will need to play one of those games.

[Kintobor]

One of these days I will need to play one of those games.

Start with Curious Village. The series sort of falls under the same effect the Star Wars series does, with the newer games being a prequel trilogy. Except with Layton, the prequels are really good.

I don't think I've ever referenced the series before, although I honestly should one of these days.

[Capt.JohnPaul]

It's all in character. Just making some philisophical/RPG points that were brought up in the mentioned Black Knight ability. Also pointing out how much rogues can earn in a fight vs those w/o the ability. Just to clarify, I do not think the rogues should put their stolen items in the loot pool or buy consumables for others, but at the same time I think they can forgo the standard loot gold.

Not the Black Knight! All I did was steal 10 gold!

[UsernameMDM]

Not the Black Knight! All I did was steal 10 gold!

I know, and I gave you the cool sword, which Hoke is willing to buy. What I meant is the Black Knight's Shield skill. Everyone, including rogue players agreed that the Black Knight should add his stolen loot to the pool or shouldn't get additional loot after the battle. I think it's fair to apply that same standard to the gold.

[Flipz]

It seems like I'm surprisingly well-equipped for the Arena. Which is odd, because I so rarely use it.

[swils]

I know, and I gave you the cool sword, which Hoke is willing to buy. What I meant is the Black Knight's Shield skill. Everyone, including rogue players agreed that the Black Knight should add his stolen loot to the pool or shouldn't get additional loot after the battle. I think it's fair to apply that same standard to the gold.

You're comparing hard loot to excess loot, or rather, set items to generated gold. The BK removes a drop from the pool, rogue-types only generate gold, not pull it from the pool.

[Flipz]

It really depends on the Quest and on who's involved; originally in 77, I planned to keep my own Gold as usual and just keep everyone buffed with my Scrolls and consumables (and my supply of Grand Tonics), but as time went on and loot wasn't coming in, I decided it would be fairer to everyone to add my earnings to the community loot--and I noticed that suddenly my fellow players became more willing to support an optimal strategy for using the Overkill Gloves (Frail the Overkiller's target before they strike, let the powerful Overkiller attack a weak target, etc.). Honestly, it's worked so well that I'll probably keep the same strategy, even if I decide to go back to Sorcerer, just because it's a nice thing to do.

That said, it's a huge step from a Rogue offering it to a party leader demanding it. While I totally understand just not giving any Gold to Rogues who've rolled a Shield or two, demanding to dip into that pool and distribute to others is another thing entirely.

That said, however, Rogues, you should consider being a bit more free with your Gold when it comes to loot distro. Not only are you more likely to get cool stuff if you've been generous, but you're also less likely to get all of us Gold-earners nerfed if it's benefiting everyone--the non-earners lose their incentive to nerf if they're benefiting from it.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Flipz

[UsernameMDM]

You're comparing hard loot to excess loot, or rather, set items to generated gold. The BK removes a drop from the pool, rogue-types only generate gold, not pull it from the pool.

But tell me, specifically, in the battle in #89 how rogues were hurt for not getting 50 gold in my allocation. Mind you they still got loot. They pulled in over 2,400 gold amongst themselves IN ONE BATTLE. Assuming the quest has at least 5 similar battles, that is 12,000 gold for the rogues, which I think it was 5-6 of them which turns into ~2,000 gold a piece at the end of the quest. Plus one maybe two of the rogues were actually fighting in the battle. It seemed like the others were farming.

[Tachyon]

Well that's unlucky for you that the rogues on your quest aren't "Generous"

[Sisco]

Farming? How does a rogue farm, exactly? Just attack weak enemies and hope that they roll a shield? In that battle I was attacking enemies that weren't immune to instant death. Sure I was hoping I rolled a shield and assassinated that enemy. An assassination would've put us closer to winning the battle, would it not? Besides, most players that are rogues chose to be a rogue to roleplay as a rogue. That includes being loving gold. So calling a rogue greedy is like calling water blue. Most rogues are greedy, selfish, and in it for the money. I don't think that punishing them in the loot distribution is fair.

[UsernameMDM]

Few rogues were attacking the heavies in that battle, one of which generated enemies every round.

So, no more reading quest 89 & 90?

[swils]

@Flipz, I'm all for strategies where a rogue's income can be maximized and then split across the cooperating party, you know this Every time this argument comes up, I'm always on the side of "Change the attitude, not the mechanics" (not that there's a call for mechanics change here). No class can do it alone, heck, Guts would have capped at ~400 gold if there hadn't been a team there to get him back up. I'm no saint and wasn't about to make a martyr of myself while I was a rogue-type, because the opinions seemed fairly set in stone, but as you said, happier parties means less foul cries.

@MDM, If they were killing enemies, I'm satisfied. Sure, I was a bit annoyed that I got stuck attacking one of the guys who could pick my pockets, and had I actually lost a significant sum downing him, I might have asked for some compensation, but I took the target nonetheless, not complaining that the rogues may or may not have been taking easy targets. If someone took on Gombur(? The guy who could lower WP/SP) and lost some upgrade levels, I'd think it nice if the group, especially the rogues, pitched in to cover that expense. But IIRC that didn't happen, either. The fact is, we all contributed to the enemies dropping in our class-specific ways. We all deserve a fair split of the loot. That means not counting the extra generated gold that has literally no effect on you.

If, in a given fight, you somehow manage to roll a crapton of Enchants, and somehow you had enough ether to support them all (not through consumables, but, say, some restorative ability by a friendly, if such a thing were possible), should your cut of the loot be docked just because you got so much free gold in upgrades?

I don't think any of the rogues put up a huge amount in buffing consumables to aid their take in this fight, though Guts did use a few Essences. Since most of them aren't covering any consumables costs, I think it'd be awesome if they split off a portion of their gold to add to the pool. They certainly wouldn't have had as many enemies to harvest from if they hadn't been a part of this large party, nor would they likely have survived the fight. But am I going to punish them for that extra gold? Not at all. Even if it's a pittance compared to their lootings, its still their share that they earned.

Edit: The heavies were taking people out left and right. Burning Essences senselessly while there were smarter targets on the field. Those of us with the SP and Health to handle them should have been keeping them busy while the damage dealers cleared the fields.

Edited December 18, 2013 by swils

[UsernameMDM]

The free hits were taken care of. Can't help it if players chose bad tactics when attacking. With damage some of those rogues put out, that battle could have ended a lot sooner. Again, I don't think splitting loot gold among non rogues is taking anything away from the rogues. If I got at least 200+ gp in a fight from stealing and lost out on 50 gp so non rogues could get a decent amount, I wouldn't have a problem with that.

[JimBee]

Farming? How does a rogue farm, exactly? Just attack weak enemies and hope that they roll a shield? In that battle I was attacking enemies that weren't immune to instant death. Sure I was hoping I rolled a shield and assassinated that enemy. An assassination would've put us closer to winning the battle, would it not? Besides, most players that are rogues chose to be a rogue to roleplay as a rogue. That includes being loving gold. So calling a rogue greedy is like calling water blue. Most rogues are greedy, selfish, and in it for the money. I don't think that punishing them in the loot distribution is fair.

This.

We've been over this a hundred times already, nobody is going to attack a target specifically for the hopes of gaining gold if ti threatens the success of the battle. Jess was attacking the OHKO-able enemies because that's how she would be most effective. And the amount of gold that Rogues gain on the side is not worth arguing about, besides that.

[Scorpiox]

I'm not in favour of anyone having to drop their own items into the pool (other than Black Knight looted artefacts and weapons), but I like to think that it is the rogues' responsibility to pay for the party's phoenix essences once we come across a shop.