Heroica RPG General Discussion

[JimBee]

Then you run into the issue of them steamrolling your battle, though. While it can be decisive, 1 turn at the beginning of combat usually isn't all that influential in the future; especially if they use a Smelling Salts to buff twice in one turn and just tank the free hits.

I think you're oversimplifying things. Take a look at the battle in 98, none of us buffed beforehand, but it took some strategizing to work out a way where we could beat the relatively tough enemies using consumables.

[Endgame]

I think you're oversimplifying things. Take a look at the battle in 98, none of us buffed beforehand, but it took some strategizing to work out a way where we could beat the relatively tough enemies using consumables.

That's indeed a good example, and I don't think the problems I described would be universal - I just think it'd make battle balance even more precarious than it already is, however.

[Waterbrick Down]

Then you run into the issue of them steamrolling your battle, though. While it can be decisive, 1 turn at the beginning of combat usually isn't all that influential in the future; especially if they use a Smelling Salts to buff twice in one turn and just tank the free hits.

Battled really shouldn't be adjusted because heroes decided to buff themselves. That's the entire idea of a buff, to give you an advantage, not keep the battle at the same difficulty but with everyone at higher stats because the QM doesn't want his enemies to be steamrolled. Make a battle at a set difficulty, if it requires the heroes to buff themselves up to be able to survive then let them learn that once they see the enemies.

I'd really be interested in seeing consumables only used during battles, it's an intriguing idea as far as balance is concerned.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[CMP]

Battled really shouldn't be adjusted because heroes decided to buff themselves. That's the entire idea of a buff, to give you an advantage, not keep the battle at the same difficulty but with everyone at higher stats because the QM doesn't want his enemies to be steamrolled. Make a battle at a set difficulty, if it requires the heroes to buff themselves up to be able to survive then let them learn that once they see the enemies.

I'd really be interested in seeing consumables only used during battles, it's an intriguing idea as far as balance is concerned.

Hosting constantly buffed rogues will change your stance on this.

I always thought it was just unfair to balance a battle for buffed heroes. But it's the only way to make sure a battle is worth fighting most of the time.

[Waterbrick Down]

Hosting constantly buffed rogues will change your stance on this.

I always thought it was just unfair to balance a battle for buffed heroes. But it's the only way to make sure a battle is worth fighting most of the time.

Then set the difficulty of the encounter to require heroes to buff themselves and stick to it. If I'm hosting a barbarian and they decide to take a mead before a battle, I don't go and double the health of my enemies so they don't die as easily. That's essentially making the player waste a consumable. As a player I've been starting to hold off on popping consumables before a battle because I'm paranoid that the QM is just going to increase the difficulty of the battle which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by taking the buff in the first place.

If battles need to be so drastically changed because of consumable usage before the battle, then maybe instead of a balancing issue, the real issue is with the multiplicative nature of the effects.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Endgame]

Here's my policy on rebalacing for each buff:

Hastened: Don't toucha anything.

Lucky: Occasionally boost levels a little bit. Rarely will I add an effect erasing special.

Encouraged: No more than a 25% increase in HP, maximum. Usually more in the ballpark of 10%.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Endgame

[CMP]

Then set the difficulty of the encounter to require heroes to buff themselves and stick to it. If I'm hosting a barbarian and they decide to take a mead before a battle, I don't go and double the health of my enemies so they don't die as easily. That's essentially making the player waste a consumable. As a player I've been starting to hold off on popping consumables before a battle because I'm paranoid that the QM is just going to increase the difficulty of the battle which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by taking the buff in the first place.

If battles need to be so drastically changed because of consumable usage before the battle, then maybe instead of a balancing issue, the real issue is with the multiplicative nature of the effects.

If we start assuming heroes are just going to buff the hell out of themselves and balance battles accordingly before we know for certain, we're sort of forcing them to constantly buff themselves. Then any chance of that cycle being broken is gone.

Maybe there should just be a cap on how many positive effects you can have at once.

[Waterbrick Down]

Here's my policy on rebalacing for each buff:

Hastened: Don't toucha anything.

Lucky: Occasionally boost levels a little bit. Rarely will I add an effect erasing special.

Encouraged: No more than a 25% increase in HP, maximum. Usually more in the ballpark of 10%.

Reinforced, Inspired? And why make the changes? What's the benefit of the consumable if you're going to rebalance?

[UsernameMDM]

Then set the difficulty of the encounter to require heroes to buff themselves and stick to it. If I'm hosting a barbarian and they decide to take a mead before a battle, I don't go and double the health of my enemies so they don't die as easily. That's essentially making the player waste a consumable. As a player I've been starting to hold off on popping consumables before a battle because I'm paranoid that the QM is just going to increase the difficulty of the battle which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid by taking the buff in the first place.

If battles need to be so drastically changed because of consumable usage before the battle, then maybe instead of a balancing issue, the real issue is with the multiplicative nature of the effects.

I just had a feeling Zepher was going to try to kill us in 3 rounds, so I loaded Hoke up big time.

[Waterbrick Down]

I just had a feeling Zepher was going to try to kill us in 3 rounds, so I loaded Hoke up big time.

Which is a reasonable guess, though one better made perhaps from an IC as opposed to an OC reason.

[Endgame]

Reinforced, Inspired? And why make the changes? What's the benefit of the consumable if you're going to rebalance?

Reinforced I don't do anything about. Inspired depends on the person's base HP.

[Waterbrick Down]

Reinforced I don't do anything about. Inspired depends on the person's base HP.

Again why? Why should someone's temporary stats require effectively nerfing there capabilities?

[CMP]

Again why? Why should someone's temporary stats require effectively nerfing there capabilities?

Because if they're stacked up enough they can literally render an entire battle irrelevant.

[Endgame]

It's a matter of stirking a balance; Giving people the benfits of their consumables without totally negating the battle. It's tough, but I think I'm doing a decent enough job - maybe I should post the original stats for some of my bosses.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Endgame

[Waterbrick Down]

Because if they're stacked up enough they can literally render an entire battle irrelevant.

It's a matter of stirking a balance; Giving people the benfits of their consumables without totally negating the battle. It's tough, but I think I'm doing a decent enough job - maybe I should post the original stats for some of my bosses.

Just follow my logic here: so consumables or the correct combination of them render battles, as originally designed, unbalanced? Then we should fix the consumables not the battles, no? The issue here is again the multiplicative nature of some of the effects, they essentially create too much of an advantage that they render battles negligent without adjustment. The effects and/or combination of effects should give someone an advantage in a battle, not a pretty much guaranteed win. I'd propose an additive system where in depending on your tier i.e. level 1-10, 11-20, etc. certain consumables have an additive effect, i.e. encouraged grants you +5 power between levels 1-10, +10 power between levels 11-20, and so on. Same with reinforced and inspired. This allows for an advantage but not a game breaking one and one that scales between levels and avoids power creep like we're currently seeing, hence the necessity for more and more battle adjustments after heroes buff themselves. Edited April 24, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Flipz]

The flip side of the coin is the cost of consumables. I generally won't use a consumable unless a.) I see an opportunity for direct profit through its use or b.) I believe that there is an enemy/fight coming up that will require me to use them to survive.

The only final solution I see is to take (some of?) the positive effect consumables out of the Marketplace. This would then make them scarcer resources that players would hesitate to use frivolously, and thus QMs would have no reason to rebalance for them. (See, for example, the way I use Jinxy Juice or Pie's Noxious Venom.)

[Endgame]

I wouldn't mind Nostrums pulled or having their price jacked up. Meads and Smelling Salts are kind of innocuous.

[Flipz]

It's gotta be pull or nothing; a price increase just limits them to Rogues.

[Waterbrick Down]

The flip side of the coin is the cost of consumables. I generally won't use a consumable unless a.) I see an opportunity for direct profit through its use or b.) I believe that there is an enemy/fight coming up that will require me to use them to survive.

The only final solution I see is to take (some of?) the positive effect consumables out of the Marketplace. This would then make them scarcer resources that players would hesitate to use frivolously, and thus QMs would have no reason to rebalance for them. (See, for example, the way I use Jinxy Juice or Pie's Noxious Venom.)

Frivolously or not, QM's would still rebalance for them. The issue isn't availability it's the actual amount of advantage they give in a battle which is being compounded as heroes grow more and more powerful.

[Flipz]

Not really. The argument of "I need to balance against the players who are always buffed" falls apart once players can't always be buffed anymore. Rebalancing for consumables would be seen as a poor design decision, and would go out of practice. Meanwhile, the buffs would then feel more powerful, since they wouldn't be used as often and would be more powerful because QMs wouldn't be balancing around them.

[Bricksandparts]

So they should be additives, not multipliers? That sounds ok to me. Then you could also have different tiers, and possibly different levels needed to use them. Another idea I had a while back was potion crafting. It's another one of my crazy ideas, but the point is to make potions that can benefit classes to their own needs, but you'd need to collect ingredients throughout the game, each having different values allowing you to add different effects.

[Waterbrick Down]

Not really. The argument of "I need to balance against the players who are always buffed" falls apart once players can't always be buffed anymore. Rebalancing for consumables would be seen as a poor design decision, and would go out of practice. Meanwhile, the buffs would then feel more powerful, since they wouldn't be used as often and would be more powerful because QMs wouldn't be balancing around them.

My issue isn't so much QM's rebalancing because a hero has a consumable that grants a buff in their inventory, but rebalancing because a hero uses a buff just before a battle. Just because the consumables would be more limited doesn't stop QM's from rebalancing when their heroes do decide to use them.

[Kintobor]

Just follow my logic here: so consumables or the correct combination of them render battles, as originally designed, unbalanced? Then we should fix the consumables not the battles, no? The issue here is again the multiplicative nature of some of the effects, they essentially create too much of an advantage that they render battles negligent without adjustment. The effects and/or combination of effects should give someone an advantage in a battle, not a pretty much guaranteed win. I'd propose an additive system where in depending on your tier i.e. level 1-10, 11-20, etc. certain consumables have an additive effect, i.e. encouraged grants you +5 power between levels 1-10, +10 power between levels 11-20, and so on. Same with reinforced and inspired. This allows for an advantage but not a game breaking one and one that scales between levels and avoids power creep like we're currently seeing, hence the necessity for more and more battle adjustments after heroes buff themselves.

I don't think the issue is changing stats in a battle, or the fact that effects are OP, or whatever you want to say. I think it's become somewhat of a reliance on them. People started drinking the Heroica Cocktail of Mead, Smelling Salts, and Nostrum, and so QM's had to adjust for this. The enemies became ridiculously harder, so players continue to use the Heroica Cocktail. It's a vicious cycle.

That and I'm against the idea of consumables only being able to be used in battle. If I'm a hero and I've been shot with an arrow and the battle's over, logically I'm going to want to take a potion and get the arrow taken out of me. Heroes are generally intelligent, they're characters who need to adapt to the situation at hand, and if it calls for taking a mead before going around the bend, it shows their ready for what lies ahead. If you're at the Big Bad's door, and your about to take him on, of course you're going to prepare yourself for the trial ahead. If you don't want your party buffed, spring a trap on them. Don't allow them the ability to talk to their opponent, just throw your enemies at them.

Edited April 24, 2014 by Kintobor

[Waterbrick Down]

I don't think the issue is changing stats in a battle, or the fact that effects are OP, or whatever you want to say. I think it's become somewhat of a reliance on them. People started drinking the Heroica Cocktail of Mead, Smelling Salts, and Nostrum, and so QM's had to adjust for this. The enemies became ridiculously harder, so players continue to use the Heroica Cocktail. It's a vicious cycle.

Sorry I'm confused, can you clarify what you are saying the issue is then? Edited April 24, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Kintobor]

I don't know, it's just as of late the game's gotten ridiculously insane in terms of it's fights. I'm not sure what I was trying to say, but I feel the reason that consumables get used so often is this feeling that QM's feel that their party's are going to, so buff the enemies before the quest begins. It's sort of become commonplace to see heroes buff themselves with everything imaginable before a battle. I'm fine with a few buffs, but when every battle in a quest starts with Nostrum, Mead, Smelling Salts, the QM generally has to do something to make the enemies challenging, but ridiculously OP.