Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Cutcobra]

These new Chima minifigures can be really good to make Undead Terra Chimian tribes.

Too bad I probably won't get my hands on any set till next year.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Cutcobra

[Flipz]

You know, I've been taking a good, hard look at some of the underutilized classes (especially Barbarians), and I've come to a few tentative conclusions.

Regarding Barbarians:

1.) Barbarians tend to get overlooked because they come off as the "default" Hero, upon which all the others are specialized variations. Consider: Mages get elemental damage, Clerics heal, Knights get shields, Rogues earn money, and Rangers are ranged. Yes, Barbarians hit hard, but that's hard to "feel" when you're first looking at them in the class list, and the fact that they're first alphabetically does them no favors. Additionally, that advantage of "Barbarians hit hard" turns into a liability considering the next point:

2.) Barbarians are underutilized because of weapon proficiencies. This sucks, and there's GOT to be something we can do to improve it. The Barbarian has access to six weapon types; let's look at what each type ends up used for:

*Hammers: Clerics, occasionally? There aren't a lot of memorable hammers, I can think of exactly two: Nerwen's crowbar, with a lovely multiplier versus Mechanical enemies, and Johon's hammer that deals Sealed, the name of which escapes me (it was a Kinto creation). Artisans can use them, but a.) why would you use a hammer when you can use broomsticks, and b.) no one's really mentioned looking to use Artisan as a class; a similar thing goes for Alchemists and Regulators--they don't have ranged weapons, but they have access to daggers, and there are TONS of crazy, powerful daggers out there--they're cheap and common, and SO many classes can use them it's not even funny.

*Spears: I defy anyone who owns a spear to tell me it's not specifically for Dragoon.

*Halberds: See spears.

*Greatswords: These used to exist, but they disappeared because they're useless. They've been completely supplanted by longswords, since the only classes that can use a greatsword but not a longsword are Necromancers (who have better options anway) and...Barbarians. Hmm...

*Clubs: These frustrate me (and are the reason I've started looking into this): there are some COOL clubs out there, but we're never going to see them used because physical-attacking Barbarians that aren't Raiders just don't exist anymore; Endgame has put out at least two now that will do nothing but rot in people's inventories, which makes me a sad panda. (Note to staff, we need a sad LEGO panda emoticon.) Alchemists and Infiltrators have daggers (and only Atramor seems to be interested in going Infiltrator anyway), and Beast Warriors use ranged weapons far more effectively.

*Axes: Who the hell uses an Axe anymore? I think Erik is the only Hero who has interesting axes of any note.

Axes and Clubs in particular join Greatsword and Scythes in the "weapon types that nobody is actually going to use" club, which saddens me. There are WAY too many daggers and longswords out there and in use, in part because there are WAY too many Expert Classes that can use them. But the final nail in Barbarian's coffin is this:

3.) Barbarian Advanced Classes suck when you're coming into them as a Barbarian. Point-by-point (obviously with personal bias, but still):

*Berserker: Single-target restriction is PAINFUL. You don't have a shield built up from time as a Knight, nor a lot of Gold income to buff it yourself.

*Battle Mage: Mage classes in general are hard to get into as a non-Mage, and especially since you don't get the special effects from your weapons the way you did as a Barbarian. (Probably the coolest Barbarian AC, though.) On the plus side, the damage output is phenomenal--it's an unorthodox but very good choice for a Mage, to be sure.

*Hunter: I think it's pretty obvious that this is far more a Barbarian option for Ranger rather than the other way around. You'd also have to start your ranged weapon from scratch, the way Berserkers have to deal with the shield.

*Shaman: These are weird. Mechanically, they work great, but there's usually better options for Clerics, and there's not a lot of interesting builds/Artifacts designed for them--Haldor was one, but he's gone now. In all honesty, though, Shamans are a LOT better than people seem to give them credit for. Probably the easiest class to switch into from Barbarian next to...

*Raider: This is the option everybody chooses, and I think we all know why. No offense to the people who've taken the class, but it's really, really overused.

4.) Barbarians have limited Expert Class options. Barring a total rebuild at Level 30 (which, granted, is possible), Barbarians have basically four options with regards to weapon compatibility and general Artifact compatibility overlap: Alchemist, Beast Warrior, Infiltrator (sorta), and Regulator. (Winged Warrior, Skirmisher, and Dragoon also share major weapon compatibility, but tend not to share Artifacts with Barbarians.) Since two of those will basically never be offered again, that leaves just two classes for them to work towards--and since, as mentioned earlier, Beast Warriors do better with ranged weapons anyway, it's basically Alchemist or nothing. Definitely not encouraging for new players.

Regarding others:

These Expert Classes are underused/under-discussed: Artisan, Cannoneer, Chi Monk, Infiltrator, Winged Warrior. Of those five, the middle three have gained a little prominence recently (thanks to Erdathcath, another character, and Atramor, respectively making plans for each of the above), but Artisan and Winged Warrior still lack players with intention to use them. Artisan is...weird and hard for me to analyze, but Winged Warrior is definitely a class I'd like to see making a comeback--especially since, unlike most of the Quest-access ECs, JimB has stated repeatedly that he's open to other QMs offering it. I want to see that, and I want to see Winged Warriors in action--they're just too awesome to let the class sit around doing nothing.

Lastly, on one final note: I really, REALLY want to see Infiltrator Atramor alongside Skirmisher Arthur (preferably with Regulator Skrall and Dragoon Hoke along for the ride). Both statistically and roleplay-wise, that would be a BLAST.

[Kintobor]

*big wall of text*

I believe you mean the Stalker's Mallet?

Stalker’s Mallet (WP: 8, usable by Knights, Barbarians, and Harlots. Has a 1/2 chance to seal the targeted enemy. Right where you want them…)

Technically it's a Hammer, but the Harlot inclusion was a while ago. If anyone gets what the hammer's a reference too...

Edited June 7, 2014 by Kintobor

[Endgame]

If anyone gets what the hammer's a reference too...

Might as well call it the Piko Piko hammer.

[Kintobor]

Might as well call it the Piko Piko hammer.

Stalker's Mallet is so much more subversive though! Amy Rose does do some borderline stalker-like things!

[JimBee]

I have to say that I disagree with most of your points, Flipz. Barbarian is a little boring on its own, but IMO Knight is the most boring of the Basic classes (although it has the coolest Advanced class options).

2.) Barbarians are underutilized because of weapon proficiencies. This sucks, and there's GOT to be something we can do to improve it. The Barbarian has access to six weapon types; let's look at what each type ends up used for:

I agree that daggers and longswords are overused and too common, both as drops and as class weapon proficiencies. Greatswords are around, used by Tesni, Cronk, Eric, and Nerwen, off the top of my head. Hammers are pretty rare, but I think Nerwen had one (along with a mace at some point which are also uncommon). Spears are pretty common, Nagure has one for starters. Halberds are rarer, but it's one of those weapon types that is a little vague. Axes are everywhere. Thormanil and Nagure used them for a long time, I have a pair of dual-striking ones that have been quite useful in the hands of Hunter Soryx.

To address your point about classes that can use both ranged and melee weapons, yes it's common for people to choose ranged but not always. For non-ranged classes coming into ranged classes, it's pretty hard to come across a ranged weapon that's as powerful as your primary melee weapon that you used as a melee class (powerful ranged weapons are, rightfully, pretty rare to begin with). Hybros is a prime example - I've never bought a bow because the SOAH and Zoot's Reaper were plenty good (and the SOAH is better even from the back row than any ranged weapon I could get my hands on). And a lot of people who do go into classes that can use ranged weapons already have ranged weapons (see Benji, Skrall, Alexis, Docken...)

Axes and Clubs in particular join Greatsword and Scythes in the "weapon types that nobody is actually going to use" club, which saddens me. There are WAY too many daggers and longswords out there and in use, in part because there are WAY too many Expert Classes that can use them. But the final nail in Barbarian's coffin is this:

I have and use a scythe (I chose it as my first weapon, and it's still Hybros' preference over longswords or daggers), as does Sorrow.

Another thing about weapons is that there are 17 different types (18 counting instruments), and about 40 active people in this game at any given time. I imagine we'd see a much larger variety of weapon use and even class strategy if we had more people playing this game.

3.) Barbarian Advanced Classes suck when you're coming into them as a Barbarian. Point-by-point (obviously with personal bias, but still):

Tesni, Eric and Nagure are some of the strongest characters in the game, all started out as Barbarians and have minmaxed pretty successfully. Haldor was a pretty awesome Shaman before he left, and Johon has been pretty effective and flexible between classes. We've yet to see a Barbarian Battle Mage, but gems aren't all that hard to come by these days. Hunter wouldn't be that hard of a class to fall into, either - Skrall, although a Ranger, has opted to use some melee weapons for the class that were more effective than his crossbow.

4.) Barbarians have limited Expert Class options. Barring a total rebuild at Level 30 (which, granted, is possible), Barbarians have basically four options with regards to weapon compatibility and general Artifact compatibility overlap: Alchemist, Beast Warrior, Infiltrator (sorta), and Regulator. (Winged Warrior, Skirmisher, and Dragoon also share major weapon compatibility, but tend not to share Artifacts with Barbarians.) Since two of those will basically never be offered again, that leaves just two classes for them to work towards--and since, as mentioned earlier, Beast Warriors do better with ranged weapons anyway, it's basically Alchemist or nothing. Definitely not encouraging for new players.

This I disagree with the most. Chi Monk is equally compatible for Barbarians, Mages, and even Clerics, and Winged Warrior is sort of a Ranger-Barbarian hybrid. Those along with he others you mentioned make up for almost all of the Expert classes. And if we're going by just weapon compatibility, everyone has to rebuild when going Minstrel.

Regarding others:

These Expert Classes are underused/under-discussed: Artisan, Cannoneer, Chi Monk, Infiltrator, Winged Warrior. Of those five, the middle three have gained a little prominence recently (thanks to Erdathcath, another character, and Atramor, respectively making plans for each of the above), but Artisan and Winged Warrior still lack players with intention to use them. Artisan is...weird and hard for me to analyze, but Winged Warrior is definitely a class I'd like to see making a comeback--especially since, unlike most of the Quest-access ECs, JimB has stated repeatedly that he's open to other QMs offering it. I want to see that, and I want to see Winged Warriors in action--they're just too awesome to let the class sit around doing nothing.

One thing you should also keep in mind is that most people haven't even reached level 30 yet - or for those who have it's been recently. I seems like some Expert classes have gotten more attention than others in general discussions, I agree, but level 30 takes a very long time to get to and a lot can change about someone's class choices before they reach that point.

[Bricksandparts]

*Wall of text*

I think a way to try and balance it would be to make natural respite restore health while in combat. I don't mean the entire level of course, but either have an extra roll for natural respite which would revive more or less HP based on the roll. Any thoughts?

[Cryos]

I think a way to try and balance it would be to make natural respite restore health while in combat. I don't mean the entire level of course, but either have an extra roll for natural respite which would revive more or less HP based on the roll. Any thoughts?

Interesting, but I can imagine some broken characters with that addition, The undying tank would be born-if you could get the right build and a competent healer. I feel it would make playing a class out of the barbarian branch a lot safer and provide less counter play.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Cryos

[JimBee]

"The loot at the Forsaken Mine looks less useful, and our other option is the Firefly Mire, which I remember doesn't have much loot, either.

Or, you know, you could try a new area.

[StickFig]

Winged Warrior still lacks players with intention to use them.

I do, but Matthias is level 10... it's gonna be a while and a lot of things can change. I originally was thinking warden but I'm pretty set on druid for advanced class now, for example. I really like the fact that there are still "unexplored" options available for play styles and character classes.

...most people haven't even reached level 30 yet - or for those who have it's been recently.

Just for reference, if 1 EXP is the amount you need to go from level 1 to level 2, it takes:

9 EXP to reach level 10

19 EXP to reach level 15 (Advanced Classes)

29 EXP to reach level 20

59 EXP to reach level 30 (Expert Classes)

99 EXP to reach level 40 (Veteran Classes)

149 EXP to reach level 50 (Master Classes)

[Myrddyn]

Warning: Lots of unmarked *Snip*s

1.) Barbarians tend to get overlooked because they come off as the "default" Hero, upon which all the others are specialized variations.

Perhaps. But the reason I went Barbarian over Cleric was because I didn't want to have to worry about Ether early into a game I hadn't played before. So their "Default"ness was actually the reason I chose it. That and I don't like tanks.

the fact that they're first alphabetically does them no favors.

Not exactly a hugely major issue, in my honest opinion.

I think Erik is the only Hero who has interesting axes of any note.

Yeah. Titanic Axe. There's the Twin Axe as well, but it started at power 5, and as far as I'm aware that is the weakest any dual-striking weapon gets. And believe me when I say if it had been up to me, they wouldn't be axes. I have no clue what I'll do for expert classes. Chi Monk is probably my best bet.

Artificer uses "Everyday items", but apparently not Axes.

Marauders use light weapons. Axes might not generally be particularly light, but they're usually lighter than Maces.

Necromancers use "imposing" weapons, but not Axes. They use Maces again, though, so apparently Maces are both more imposing than Axes, and lighter than Axes. Maybe they're hollow?

Dragoons and Skirmishers use polearms, but not Axes. Axes are polearms, aren't they? They have poles for handles. Just stabby polearms, then.

Pretty sure Regulator is no longer unlockable.

Winged Warrior, Infiltrators and Beast Warriors use Axes, but also have access to ranged weapons. So, better to go to from Ranger.

Alchemist uses Axes.

*Shaman

Shaman's big advantage is sustainability. Natural Respite, Extra Critical healing, Ether-less, fully healing shield rolls, and Meditate. That said, a Cleric>Shaman has about +1 HP and +4 Ether over a Barbarian>Shaman, and the weapons they have from their basic classes again slightly favour the Cleric. Both have Hammers, Barbarian shares two weapon types with Knight, and Cleric only shares one with Knight, but two with Mage, one of which is ranged.

I think a way to try and balance it would be to make natural respite restore health while in combat. I don't mean the entire level of course, but either have an extra roll for natural respite which would revive more or less HP based on the roll. Any thoughts?

Perhaps, but Cryos raises a valid point, plus it seems kind-of unrealistic - it's one thing to be really tough and able to take hard knocks and recover quickly, but recovering WHILE you're being whacked just takes it to another level.

I think the obvious buff to Barbarian/Natural Respite would be making it heal fully, without needing Barbarian Boots.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Myrddyn

[Sandy]

By the way, have you considered which Expert Class you'll be taking Ellaria, or is she just going to wait for High Cleric?

Sorry, forgot to answer to this one...

I'm aiming Ellaria to become an Alchemist, actually. It fits her perfectly, but unfortunately Guild of Invision reputation is pretty hard to come by.

I think the obvious buff to Barbarian/Natural Respite would be making it heal fully, without needing Barbarian Boots.

Why does Barbarian itself need a buff? Aren't you guys talking about the limited options it has to advance?

Besides, usually Natural Respite is enough to restore a barbarian's health fully. The boots just give it that extra edge.

[Flipz]

Sorry, forgot to answer to this one...

I'm aiming Ellaria to become an Alchemist, actually. It fits her perfectly, but unfortunately Guild of Invision reputation is pretty hard to come by.

Noted. I'll add it to the to-do list...eventually.

Why does Barbarian itself need a buff? Aren't you guys talking about the limited options it has to advance?

Besides, usually Natural Respite is enough to restore a barbarian's health fully. The boots just give it that extra edge.

I don't think Barbarian itself needs a buff, it just needs more focus and more things (Artifacts) designed specifically to play to its strengths and/or do interesting things that other classes don't already. (An example of that as far as Shaman goes is the Shamanic Plate you made for Haldor--we need more stuff like that that makes Barbarians interesting.) What DOES need work are the classes it's expected to advance to, specifically the Expert Classes--we need ECs that use Clubs and Axes and Hammers as their ONLY weapons, and they need to be SUPER interesting and fun to play.

Maybe we could make a group effort to emphasize Barbarians, such as including interesting Barbarian-based NPCs, and/or including interesting Barbarian-usable Artifacts, and/or creating scenarios in which Barbarians' skills are especially useful (perhaps something like the first Guffington Quest where items are at a premium, making Natural Respite more useful, mayhaps?).

Edited June 7, 2014 by Flipz

[Sandy]

What DOES need work are the classes it's expected to advance to, specifically the Expert Classes--we need ECs that use Clubs and Axes and Hammers as their ONLY weapons, and they need to be SUPER interesting and fun to play.

I beg to differ. Why do we need a pure-barbarian Expert Class, when there's Barbarian Chieftain for them to advance to?

The whole point of the ECs is that they are completely different from the basic job classes, offering a different approach to the battles. They are not supposed to be a direct continuation to the advanced classes, and I'd expect some people to skip them altogether.

Ellaria certainly will, if she can't get enough reputation for the Alchemist before she hits Level 40.

Besides, you're making it sound like every new player plans their path through this game the minute they join this game, and choose their basic job class accordingly. I don't anybody does that, except maybe for you.

And as a final note, Cleric is actually the basic class with the least amount of players. There hasn't been a new Cleric in the game since Grimwald (and he joined over a year ago).

[Myrddyn]

Why does Barbarian itself need a buff? Aren't you guys talking about the limited options it has to advance?

Besides, usually Natural Respite is enough to restore a barbarian's health fully. The boots just give it that extra edge.

Mostly, yeah. There's not really a reason it needs a buff, but I wouldn't mind one. And making the boots effect standard would, as you said, be minor.

On somewhat of a different note, I just skimmed the hero list on the first page of the hall topic, and got results I find quite interesting. They could be slightly off.

Cleric - 10

Ranger - 16

Barbarian - 17

Mage - 23

Rogue - 24

Knight - 29

Yeah, who would have thought it, Cleric has the least. But then quite a significant amount more people start as Knight than Rogue - they just don't stick around.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Myrddyn

[StickFig]

Off topic, but my goodness where did this come from? (Note: Oversizing, red color, and COMIC SANS removed with extreme prejudice... view original at your own risk.)

Welcome to the Heroica Heros HQ!

Please come, and join the Heroica Heros! to fight the Goblins and claim our homeland! (Heroica!).

Positions Coming Soon!

Yours Sincerely,

OH I'M SO EXCITED 2 JOIN HEROICA HEROZ AN FIGHT GBLINZ! CAN I BE LIKE A HIGH POSITION OR SOMETHING?

[Kintobor]

Off topic, but my goodness where did this come from? (Note: Oversizing, red color, and COMIC SANS removed with extreme prejudice... view original at your own risk.)

OH I'M SO EXCITED 2 JOIN HEROICA HEROZ AN FIGHT GBLINZ! CAN I BE LIKE A HIGH POSITION OR SOMETHING?

We've had this before. It's just some newbie who thinks he can post here because "heros!" And what's with all the goblin hate! The last one was also goblins, but it was the Goblin HQ? Same guy, mayhaps?

[Palathadric]

Hybros has a great axe that Soryx is borrowing for now as well. What is Hybros doing with that anyway. Also have I never mentioned before that I wanted to go Artisan? Why do you think so many people were so excited by the marketplace quest? ...Maybe I just had my motives mixed up.

As far as Greatswords go. Johan has one of the awesomest ones out there courtesy of our friendly monk.

...I still regret selling it to him.

[Waterbrick Down]

Barbarians are about on the same scale as Rangers when it comes to damage output. Granted frenzy hits more enemies in certain situations, but that's about it, triple shot is actually more beneficial as soon as you're down to two or less enemies. Rangers have more health, due to back row and generally get about as much SP as a barbarian, so in my book the difference between Rangers and Barbarians is basically personal flavor preference. If you're concerned about making the class cool and giving it its own niche, I'd say let them do 2*WP on a normal hit, it increases their damage output (their niche) without being super OP (i.e. they would generally do on average +1 WP worth more damage than a Ranger who's real niche is the back row and secondary niche is high damage output.)

[Flare]

Off topic, but my goodness where did this come from? (Note: Oversizing, red color, and COMIC SANS removed with extreme prejudice... view original at your own risk.)

OH I'M SO EXCITED 2 JOIN HEROICA HEROZ AN FIGHT GBLINZ! CAN I BE LIKE A HIGH POSITION OR SOMETHING?

LOL where did you get that from? Its been deleted by now...

[Duvors]

Off topic, but my goodness where did this come from? (Note: Oversizing, red color, and COMIC SANS removed with extreme prejudice... view original at your own risk.)

OH I'M SO EXCITED 2 JOIN HEROICA HEROZ AN FIGHT GBLINZ! CAN I BE LIKE A HIGH POSITION OR SOMETHING?

You know, the wording of that quote sounded an awful lot like the opening post of a role-play topic from the official lego forums...

LOL where did you get that from? Its been deleted by now...

Not when he posted it wasn't.

[Palathadric]

Barbarians are about on the same scale as Rangers when it comes to damage output. Granted frenzy hits more enemies in certain situations, but that's about it, triple shot is actually more beneficial as soon as you're down to two or less enemies. Rangers have more health, due to back row and generally get about as much SP as a barbarian, so in my book the difference between Rangers and Barbarians is basically personal flavor preference. If you're concerned about making the class cool and giving it its own niche, I'd say let them do 2*WP on a normal hit, it increases their damage output (their niche) without being super OP (i.e. they would generally do on average +1 WP worth more damage than a Ranger who's real niche is the back row and secondary niche is high damage output.)

I would agree to this. But then if Barbarians get it, their advances classes should as well, and then some might start getting overpowered.

[Cutcobra]

Off topic, but my goodness where did this come from? (Note: Oversizing, red color, and COMIC SANS removed with extreme prejudice... view original at your own risk.)

OH I'M SO EXCITED 2 JOIN HEROICA HEROZ AN FIGHT GBLINZ! CAN I BE LIKE A HIGH POSITION OR SOMETHING?

Why do I always miss these type of things...

[Waterbrick Down]

I would agree to this. But then if Barbarians get it, their advances classes should as well, and then some might start getting overpowered.

Not really, as with the base classes, it's really only a small power increase that is added to the final calculation as opposed to a raw power multiplier which is where numbers really start to get crazy.

[Zepher]

Metal Claw (Unarmed attacks drain health from the enemy equal to the strength of the attack; handwear)

Does this item allow Chi Monks to heal themselves to perfect health every time they land a Hit/Critical Hit/Shield?