Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Kintobor]

If I know anything about Munchkins, the cards will all be printed by Steve Jackson Games.

Anyone here play Munchkin? Own any of the sets?

[Tachyon]

Munchkin is an extremely fun game. Stupid theif when they have the item that stops people from stealing from them as well as the one that stops them from being affected by curses.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Zakura

[Lind Whisperer]

If you think that isn't short then just ask Flipz to tell you his character's backstory sometime...

On another note, welcome to the game! And I like the backstory, the deck of cards is certainly new.

Thanks! I got the original idea for the deck from a combination of the concepts behind M:TG, and the way that Gambit is always shown with a handful of cards. I thought it might be interesting to have a whole race of people who carry them, as a sort of visual identification as to their personal leanings and natures*.

*One of these days, I'll probably have a pic of Lind's personal deck to show, I'm still figuring out all the different cards at the moment...

Edited July 13, 2014 by Lind Whisperer

[Flipz]

Thanks! I got the original idea for the deck from a combination of the concepts behind M:TG, and the way that Gambit is always shown with a handful of cards. I thought it might be interesting to have a whole race of people who carry them, as a sort of visual identification as to their personal leanings and natures*.

*One of these days, I'll probably have a pic of Lind's personal deck to show, I'm still figuring out all the different cards at the moment...

Suggestion: instead of using a generic "long dagger", why not have your starting weapon be Playing Cards (WP:3, throwing weapon) ?

Edited July 13, 2014 by Flipz

[Sandy]

Anyone here play Munchkin? Own any of the sets?

Me, me, me! Munchkin (the card game) was actually one of the main inspirations behind this game, alongside LEGO Heroica, of course. I got the "level + weapon + other items = your strength" out of that game, for one.

We used to have only Munchkin Booty (the pirate version), but this year we bought the original one as well, with most of the add-ons. It's always a blast to play, and I wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone with friends who like to play tabletop games.

[Kintobor]

Munchkin Booty was my first set, and I attained it's add-on, Jump the Shark, later on. I also own Munchkin Bites which is the horror themed set and it's add on Pants Macabre, Munchkin Cthulhu and two of it's add ons, Munchkin Zombies with it's three add ons, and finally two of the Christmas packs. I'm pretty obsessed.

[Cutcobra]

I just realized Heckz is wearing the Shadeaux' colors. Perfect for the occasion.

[Zepher]

Sorry all, work has been intensive this weekend, updates will roll in this evening!

[Duvors]

Suggestion: instead of using a generic "long dagger", why not have your starting weapon be Playing Cards (WP:3, throwing weapon) ?

You, Sir, are a Genius.

Pirate Yoda approves.

[Chromeknight]

Sorry all, work has been intensive this weekend, updates will roll in this evening!

Also, conferences are finished, mid year break is over and I'm back on campus, so should be able to update more than only once daily now.

[Lind Whisperer]

Suggestion: instead of using a generic "long dagger", why not have your starting weapon be Playing Cards (WP:3, throwing weapon) ?

That is a great idea, and I did originally intend to arm Lind with throwing weapons...but you have to spend a turn retrieving them. And, as a level 1 player, with only 7 health points, that could very easily be deadly* if an enemy focused on me...not to mention that it would detract from the group's ability as a whole.

The health aspect wouldn't be a problem if I was attacking from the back row, but according to the rules, you can only retrieve weapons from the front row.

*Especially if I'm in a quest with the median level being 24.165...

Edited July 13, 2014 by Lind Whisperer

[StickFig]

And, as a level 1 player, with only 7 health points, that could very easily be deadly if an enemy focused on me...not to mention that it would detract from the group's ability as a whole.

Enemies can't focus on you - you chose which of them to attack, not the other way around - except for free hits, which follow the battle order. As a level 1 player character you shouldn't be first in the battle order, so you shouldn't take any bad free hits. Go for the throwing weapon!

P.S. - @Flipz is the best min-maxer (munchkin) around - if he's advocating something, do it.

Edited July 13, 2014 by nstickney

[Lind Whisperer]

Enemies can't focus on you - you chose which of them to attack, not the other way around - except for free hits, which follow the battle order. As a level 1 player character you shouldn't be first in the battle order, so you shouldn't take any bad free hits. Go for the throwing weapon!

P.S. - @Flipz is the best min-maxer (munchkin) around - if he's advocating something, do it.

I'll switch to the cards, then...

Thanks for explaining that. I've read through several of the quests and I was almost certain that I'd seen ones where enemies could focus...Ah, well, the first step towards learning is knowing that you have more to learn...

Edited July 14, 2014 by Lind Whisperer

[CMP]

I'd advise against the cards. Throwing weapons are a hassle as your primary weapon unless it's got a really good effect.

[Emjajoas]

Thanks for explaining that. I've read through several of the quests and I was almost certain that I'd seen ones where enemies could focus...Ah, well, the first step towards learning is knowing that you have more to learn...

Perhaps you are mistaking focus for a Warden's Shield roll or something similar that draws all attacks? I'm not sure what else it could be.

[Flipz]

I'd advise against the cards. Throwing weapons are a hassle as your primary weapon unless it's got a really good effect.

Eh, not really. The damage output is ultimately just as good as attacking from the Back Row (2 attacks in 2 Rounds at half strength versus 1 attack in 2 Rounds at full strength), but you only chance taking damage or Special Damage in one of those two Rounds. The only reason it's not been common is due to tradition and inertia, and because Daggers are so f*cking overcommon.

Also: Wheee, first battle! Yes, it's a little complicated, but hopefully not too much so--ask me if you have any questions.

[Lind Whisperer]

Eh, not really. The damage output is ultimately just as good as attacking from the Back Row (2 attacks in 2 Rounds at half strength versus 1 attack in 2 Rounds at full strength), but you only chance taking damage or Special Damage in one of those two Rounds. The only reason it's not been common is due to tradition and inertia, and because Daggers are so f*cking overcommon.

Thanks - I was a little bit confused, but that really clears things up nicely.

Also: Wheee, first battle! Yes, it's a little complicated, but hopefully not too much so--ask me if you have any questions.

Thanks - I think I've figured it out now, but I will definitely ask if there's something that I don't understand.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Lind Whisperer

[Myrddyn]

Yeah, I'd advise against the cards as your starting weapon/only weapon also. You could always buy some shurikens in the market place after your first quest, call them cards, and pretend you had them the whole time. I'm pretty sure that's allowed.

The damage output is ultimately just as good as attacking from the Back Row (2 attacks in 2 Rounds at half strength versus 1 attack in 2 Rounds at full strength), but you only chance taking damage or Special Damage in one of those two Rounds.

But then you may have to take a free hit, and you don't have the option to attack from the front row with the not-throwing-weapon (effectively getting double damage over two rounds.) And as a Rogue, you want more attack actions to increase your Mug chance.

It might be fun, though. Do what you want.

Edited July 14, 2014 by Myrddyn

[Endgame]

If you want uniqueness and no issues with throwing weapons, make it a Scythe.

[Flipz]

Yeah, I'd advise against the cards as your starting weapon/only weapon also. You could always buy some shurikens in the market place after your first quest, call them cards, and pretend you had them the whole time. I'm pretty sure that's allowed.

But then you may have to take a free hit, and you don't have the option to attack from the front row with the not-throwing-weapon (effectively getting double damage over two rounds.) And as a Rogue, you want more attack actions to increase your Mug chance.

It might be fun, though. Do what you want.

That's a party leader issue, though; Rogues retrieving throwing weapons should always be low in the Order so they're not taking Free Hits. I'd argue the "gap" from throwing weapons is kind of what Knights were built for in the first place: soaking up Free Hits.

And let's be honest--in the current meta, barring a Level 1-oriented Quest like my own, who's going to make enemies that a Level 1 Rogue can safely attack from the Front Row? It's a weakness in design, but it's part of the meta: Quests are balanced more around the upper end of the Level spectrum than the lower end.

Believe me, as someone who uses throwing weapons on a regular basis, they are VERY fun.

[CMP]

Believe me, as someone who uses throwing weapons on a regular basis, they are VERY fun.

You have five of them, they all have an effect of some kind, plus you have backup weapons. It's just not a choice of weapon to start with.

[Flipz]

You have five of them, they all have an effect of some kind, plus you have backup weapons. It's just not a choice of weapon to start with.

I disagree. Even if he wants a backup weapon, it's extremely likely he'll find one in his first Quest; daggers and longswords are ludicrously overcommon, especially those with special effects on them. Meanwhile, the throwing weapon will continue to be useful to him throughout his Heroica career, whereas a simple melee starter weapon is only worth the 15 Gold you can get from cashing it in.

Besides that, throwing weapons are more interesting to play with and allow for more options than a simple "I attack X with Y until one of us is dead". A male human Rogue with a dagger or a longsword is a carbon copy of most Level 1 Rogues who have joined Heroica (many of whom are now listed in the Archives); a male human Rogue with a throwing weapon is, at the very least, a little bit different from the rest.

[CMP]

Besides that, throwing weapons are more interesting to play with and allow for more options than a simple "I attack X with Y until one of us is dead". A male human Rogue with a dagger or a longsword is a carbon copy of most Level 1 Rogues who have joined Heroica (many of whom are now listed in the Archives); a male human Rogue with a throwing weapon is, at the very least, a little bit different from the rest.

Because instead of attacking every turn he gets to go retrieve his weapon every other round?

If a level 1 rogue can't safely attack an enemy from the front row he's picking the wrong target or his QM isn't balancing things well enough. Besides, doing 4 damage instead of 2 from the back row isn't worth the round it takes to go retrieve the weapon.

There's recorded evidence of dagger-wielding male human rogues turning out to be complete badasses later on, by the way.

[Flipz]

his QM isn't balancing things well enough

The most common issue here, again particularly with mixed-Level parties.

Mechanically how it goes is this:

Melee:

Round 1: Rogue attacks with dagger from Back Row for potential of 2, 4, or 5 damage, with a 1/3 chance to roll Damage or Special Damage. Total damage range: 2-5 damage

Round 2: Rogue attacks with dagger from Back Row for potential of 2, 4, or 5 damage, with a 1/3 chance to roll Damage or Special Damage. Total damage range: 4-10 damage

That's assuming two attacks land; the odds of hitting both attacks are 1/4, leaving a 1/2 chance of the total damage range over both Rounds being 2-5 and a 1/4 chance of no damage being dealt to the enemy whatsoever.

Throwing weapon:

Round 1: Rogue attacks with throwing weapon from Back Row for potential of 4, 7, or 10 damage, with a 1/3 chance to roll Damage or Special Damage. Total damage range: 4-10 damage

Round 2: Rogue retrieves throwing weapon from Front Row for potential of 0 damage, with no chance to roll Damage or Special Damage. Total damage range: 4-10 damage; however, if the first attack didn't land, the Rogue still has their weapon and can try to throw it again for the same odds as the first Round.

This leaves a total 2/3 chance of the total damage range being 4-10 damage, with a 1/3 chance of no damage being dealt to the enemy whatsoever. The ranged Rogue has a 2/3 chance to deal more damage than the melee can with only one strike, and even if we assume the enemy is "safe" for a melee Rogue to attack from the Front Row (at Level 1, that means Level 6 or lower), let's look at how many rolls of Damage each Rogue can handle without being KO'd:

Level 1: 6 melee, 6 ranged

Level 2: 3 melee, 6 ranged

Level 3: 2 melee, 3 ranged

Level 4: 1 melee, 3 ranged

Level 5: 1 melee, 2 ranged

Level 6: 1 melee, 2 ranged

Add to that that over two Rounds the ranged Rogue only risks rolling damage at all 2/3 of the time compared to the melee build's 3/4, and you have yourself a winner.

Granted, it's a very small difference, but still, in minmax terms, this is the best you're going to get.

[JimBee]

If a level 1 rogue can't safely attack an enemy from the front row he's picking the wrong target or his QM isn't balancing things well enough.

This.

I've found both throwing weapons and melee weapons useful. I used to have more of the former, and would use them quite often (without retrieving them until the battle was over). It's just that now I have a melee weapon powerful enough to be more effective from the back row than any of my throwing weapons.