Heroica RPG General Discussion

[CMP]

I'm quite interested, but I don't think I could equip it as a Rogue...If I went Black Knight, could I equip it then?

Yeah, but that shield is worth in the excess of like 1000 gold.

[Lind Whisperer]

Yeah, but that shield is worth in the excess of like 1000 gold.

I was thinking payment plan. A very long payment plan.

A very, very, very, long payment plan.

[Endgame]

I apologize if the NPCs have become intrusive - they were implemented to hold over those who were waiting for the rather long sign ups. There will be no more, and The Regret will be exitting shortly. I can see how especially The Regret can be obstructive, but ultimately he was just there to check his own posting. He would've walked in and out silently if no had intervened, but I had to consider what the Sand Queen would've done.

I hadn't seen any negative feedback prior to The Regret, so I had him appear as the final NPC. I'm always open to criticism - everything I do is left flexible - so I hope that in the future I can remedy things like this before it hits a boiling point. They were getting responses, so I made the faulty assumption that all was well.

Also: The Regret is a pretty blatant villain. He's tactless, he likes displays of power, he's cruel. I've written him to be pretty much entirely hate-able. But it's also known he considers hate to be one of the strongest, if not volatile, sources of strength, and that he does what it takes to move closer to his goal. He's also a big fan of deception and control. Put all of the factoes together and it may be apparent that The Regret's true nature isn't entirely his displayed one.

I've dropped tiny scraps in all of The Regret's conversations, and to be honest I probably have made it too subtle and stretched The Regret too thin. But things will start becoming clear soon enough.

Also, I think it's clear to me now that I don't see the hall itself as anything much different than a mercenary base with a bar. I've always seen the place as a bit run down, to be honest.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Endgame

[Duvors]

I was thinking payment plan. A very long payment plan.

A very, very, very, long payment plan.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Lord Duvors

[Waterbrick Down]

I apologize if the NPCs have become intrusive - they were implemented to hold over those who were waiting for the rather long sign ups. There will be no more, and The Regret will be exitting shortly. I can see how especially The Regret can be obstructive, but ultimately he was just there to check his own posting. He would've walked in and out silently if no had intervened, but I had to consider what the Sand Queen would've done.

I hadn't seen any negative feedback prior to The Regret, so I had him appear as the final NPC. I'm always open to criticism - everything I do is left flexible - so I hope that in the future I can remedy things like this before it hits a boiling point. They were getting responses, so I made the faulty assumption that all was well.

Also: The Regret is a pretty blatant villain. He's tactless, he likes displays of power, he's cruel. I've written him to be pretty much entirely hate-able. But it's also known he considers hate to be one of the strongest, if not volatile, sources of strength, and that he does what it takes to move closer to his goal. He's also a big fan of deception and control. Put all of the factoes together and it may be apparent that The Regret's true nature may become apparent.

I've dropped tiny scraps in all of The Regret's conversations, and to be honest I probably have made it to subtle and stretched The Regret too thin. But things will start becoming clear soon enough.

Also, I think it's clear to me now that I don't see the hall itself as anything much different than a mercenary base with a bar. I've always seen the place as a bit run down, to be honest.

The issue isn't so much his blatent evilness, it's his appearing forces, as Flipz says, both heroes and the veterans into an awkward spot. In reality if this was an acutal quest, the Regret would be trounced if he set a foot into the hall, by both the heroes and the veterans. I know you're going for a really powerful villain, but from a meta perspective we all know that the Regret's going to be beat so it's hard to take him seriously when he comes into the hall like that and it makes even less sense that the heroes and veterans would cower before him. The rest of this is probably best hashed out in the QM Lounge and after your finale though.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Waterbrick Down

[Duvors]

Also, I think it's clear to me now that I don't see the hall itself as anything much different than a mercenary base with a bar. I've always seen the place as a bit run down, to be honest.

This is your definition of 'run down'?

[Lind Whisperer]

Also, I think it's clear to me now that I don't see the hall itself as anything much different than a mercenary base with a bar. I've always seen the place as a bit run down, to be honest.

If you don't want the villains themselves to appear, try having them send an emissary - you can't kill them per the rules of war(or at least you're not supposed to...), and you don't have all of the wondering as to how the villain can appear without being attacked.

Plus, if your heroes are really going for chaotic evil, they can kill the emissary for Ultimate Dark points.

[CMP]

Plus, if your heroes are really going for chaotic evil, they can kill the emissary for Ultimate Dark points.

Unless you're Aragorn. Then it's perfectly fine.

[Pyrovisionary]

he does what it takes to move closer to his goal.

If his goal is to display what an cocky supervillain he is. Yes. He's hired a group of Mercenaries to come and try their luck against him, and he's rubbing in his invincibility by doing the equivalent of calling them up before the tea party to ask if anyone would mind awfully if the butter for the Crumpets is Salted. If anyone even tried to attack him he'd do the old magically suspend the hero/projectile with no effort. Nonetheless I can see where he's coming from in that the heroes have defeated him before and he's still fine, until the heroes of Heroica unleash their McGuffin on him, carefully introduced by the World's expert on being killed. If he has no reason to kill all the heroes their and then, he has no reason to take over the world.

Unless you're Aragorn. Then it's perfectly fine.

Or if you're from Sparta.

Edited July 26, 2014 by Pyrovisionary

[Brickdoctor]

I was thinking payment plan. A very long payment plan.

A very, very, very, long payment plan.

Considering that you are a new hero and that Black Knight, despite being a Rogue Advanced Class, possesses no Gold-gaining abilities, I am pleased to tell you that you have been approved for an interest-only loan of two thousand (2000) Gold in the form of one (1) Mythril Shield SP: 20, at a monthly rate of 11.38%.

[Endgame]

The issue isn't so much his blatent evilness, it's his appearing forces, as Flipz says, both heroes and the veterans into an awkward spot. In reality if this was an acutal quest, the Regret would be trounced if he set a foot into the hall, by both the heroes and the veterans. I know you're going for a really powerful villain, but from a meta perspective we all know that the Regret's going to be beat so it's hard to take him seriously when he comes into the hall like that and it makes even less sense that the heroes and veterans would cower before him. The rest of this is probably best hashed out in the QM Lounge and after your finale though.

You're right on pretty much all counts, although I still think that the Sand Queen would be frightened of him. After all, visions are her thing, and The Regret shut her down. Imagine if Jonah took away Drucilla's ability to use ether - I'd think Drucilla would be terrified of Marilith/Jonah until the day she died. The heroes have had past experience with him, sure, but you're right that it doesn't justify fear. I don't expect him to be feared wherever he goes - some heroes choose to fear him, some decide to rebel. I like both reactions - they diversify him a bit.

You can try trouncing him, just like you could've tried trouncing Seerus! I'm not afraid of letting things get derailed for a bit - especially after 70, I'm kind of glad if and when Heroes decide to go off my rails. It makes it a more organic experiment. You folks have done it before without even realizing it. For example:

-In 79, the Oculoid Chief was never meant to be fought hand to hand, but you folks goaded him into it.

-In 86, the drug dealers would've never even give you an offer to skip that battle, but once again you goaded it.

-In 81, you could've attacked the Oculoid Mob escorting you to Echoes Tower for some sweet loot if you manged to grab it and flee. Iris was also permanently killable as well.

-In 99, the Bookmark was never meant to leave Nevermore.

-If Seerus was attacke,d there was potential for removing one of his tentacles if a hero got a lucky shot in. He would've fled after.

-The Regret would give the heroes attacking him the same warning, and if they still chose to fight, I would've worked something out via PM.

It's something I wish I could go back and change - make it more apparent that the heroes were having impact.

This is your definition of 'run down'?

Scattered brickwork, a dislodged railing or two (unintentional, I know), a bar that needs constant sweeping, and the general RPing atmosphere gives me more of an image of a grittier place. Plus, it's in Eubric, which i've always imagined as a filthy place

(This is in no way a critique of your building skills, Sandy - It's my interpretation of art, because to be honest, I think your Hall build is art - I've always loved it. )

If his goal is to display what an cocky supervillain he is. Yes. He's hired a group of Mercenaries to come and try their luck against him, and he's rubbing in his invincibility by doing the equivalent of calling them up before the tea party to ask if anyone would mind awfully if the butter for the Crumpets is Salted. If anyone even tried to attack him he'd do the old magically suspend the hero/projectile with no effort. Nonetheless I can see where he's coming from in that the heroes have defeated him before and he's still fine, until the heroes of Heroica unleash their McGuffin on him, carefully introduced by the World's expert on being killed. If he has no reason to kill all the heroes their and then, he has no reason to take over the world.

Or maybe he's using availible resources.

[Pyrovisionary]

-In 81, you could've attacked the Oculoid Mob escorting you to Echoes Tower for some sweet loot if you manged to grab it and flee. Iris was also permanently killable as well.

Now I just feel cheated of Loot!

[Endgame]

Now I just feel cheated of Loot!

You had your shot, admittedly one I didn't clarify.

[Kintobor]

Scattered brickwork, a dislodged railing or two (unintentional, I know), a bar that needs constant sweeping, and the general RPing atmosphere gives me more of an image of a grittier place. Plus, it's in Eubric, which i've always imagined as a filthy place

I've always envisioned Eubric as being similar to how London is portrayed in the Professor Layton series, with narrow side alleys, multi-story buildings and apartments, and wide streets; albeit with a lot more grime and dirt. Future London from the Unwound Future is sort of the main inspiration for a couple of my buildings.

[Lind Whisperer]

Considering that you are a new hero and that Black Knight, despite being a Rogue Advanced Class, possesses no Gold-gaining abilities, I am pleased to tell you that you have been approved for an interest-only loan of two thousand (2000) Gold in the form of one (1) Mythril Shield SP: 20, at a monthly rate of 11.38%.

I forgot about the gold-gaining or lack thereof...

(This is in no way a critique of your building skills, Sandy - It's my interpretation of art, because to be honest, I think your Hall build is art - I've always loved it. )

Agreed - I've always liked looking at these pictures - especially the part where you filled it with PCs.

I don't suppose we might see another updated anniversary pic someday*?

*I ask because Lind's technically wearing the wrong torso. He was originally supposed to be wearing this, with green arms, but my edition of LDraw didn't come with it.

[UsernameMDM]

I picture Eubric/Heroica being a lot like the WotC D&D Setting Eberron.

Edited July 26, 2014 by UsernameMDM

[Cutcobra]

Hey look! It's Elphaba's mom.

[Palathadric]

This is your definition of 'run down'?

Run down is after all those heroes are finished with their drinks, poisoned arrows, crusaders, etc.

[Flipz]

Forgive me for harping on this, I'm really only saying it because I want this plotline to redeem itself before it's too late. I considered just PMing you, but I feel that saying this here will allow others to offer their own takes on what I'm saying, so the points of mine that are accurate can be reinforced while the ones that aren't can be corrected by writers who are a lot cleverer than me.

You had your shot, admittedly one I didn't clarify.

I think that's the big problem with The Regret plotline, though, is that it doesn't seem like we can do anything--when we try, we get beaten up, beaten up, or threatened with being beaten up. There doesn't seem like there's a point in playing, because nothing can happen until The Plot says so--or more appropriately, Only The Author Can Save Them Now. It seems like you were trying to go for You Can't Thwart Stage One (which worked rather well in 48 and with 79 and 86) but ended up with Strong As They Need To Be--no matter how far the Heroes progress in experience and stats, the Appeal To Force over the player characters (which is dicey as-is) is Enforced even when it doesn't make sense.

Put it another way: compare Regret's (or any of his major minions') response to/attitude towards Arthur or Johon or any of the characters he's met more than once between the first and last times he's encountered them. You could almost literally swap the two conversations, only changing the direct references to a character's class--there's no development, no acknowledgement that anything has changed. No matter what we do, The Regret keeps Moving the Goalposts so the exact same scenario always plays out: "the ragtag bunch of misfits struggles against the impossibly unbeatable foe, and against all odds they win the fight but ultimately it doesn't matter because the villain had planned for every eventuality, even though they claimed the Heroes winning was impossible."

Basically, when every choice is a Morton's Fork, and trying to Take A Third Option is punished, the only reasonable remaining response is "Just Get It Over With," which in this game generally means the players have stopped having fun.

Again, just my opinion, but hopefully it will help you understand better where I'm coming from.

[Palathadric]

I don't string together long speeches when not talking for Pretzel, but basically I agree with Flipz. When enemies start becoming too powerful, they stop becoming interesting or fun. They're just always the same...kind of. I think this is why I still appreciate Endgame's quests geared to newbies, because they're usually not as much focused on some big powerful being who's controlling everybody...oh, wait (Death Progg, Masson...)

[Flipz]

Remind me whose idea it was to make the U'kin talk like that?

I was originally planning to stretch this conversation out a little more, but given my slow update speeds (sorry again!) I decided to condense things down a bit.

[Endgame]

Has anyone really tried a 3rd Option in any of the Lifespark quests, really? All examples cited are at the very end against the big bad, and even then they weren't really choices... Just mocking them, and the big bad responding in kind. (In fact, it kinda is a good sign, because it proves Heroica is capable of getting under his skin.). Nobody has tried any choice beyond the choice the quest itself offers - if you want to take a third route, try! The largest consequence I've had for doing such a thing has been what, 1 ether? If you want to try something: try.

[The_Customizer]

So, pretty much you are wanting us to go against the quest's options for fighting the Regret? Fine by me!

[Endgame]

I would encourage you to keep your objective in mind, but if you see a conceivable path you'd rather take... Go for it. I can think of an area on the fly.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Endgame

[swils]

swils taps his foot impatiently. "Dangit. Where's that new guy. I want to progress already but he's holding me up!"