Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Myrddyn]

Granted, I'm glad Chauncey won, but this battle definitely shows that the division system is inherently unfair, as it gives those with SP FAR too much of an advantage over their opponents, not to mention how ineffectual it makes the weaker Heroes.

I disagree; SP was subtracted from damage before it was divided, so the advantage given by SP was much less significant than it normally is in PVE.

Example:

>Chauncey v. Aventine - Special Damage/Shield (Dark Minion Explodes, 11 Damage All, XX KO'd, (only 9 damage Nerwen, Aventine Immune)

Despite her 16 SP, Nerwen took only 2 less damage than everyone else. (74-16=58, 58/7=9(Well 8.3, apparently it was rounded up)).

SP=Advantage? Yes. SP=Far too much of an advantage? I don't think so, but less of an advantage than usual, at any rate. SP=More advantage than under the HP*10 system? Well, the Nerwen:Plebeian damage ratio is not significantly different: 58:74 means Nerwen takes only 0.784 of the plebeians' damage, while 9:11 means Nerwen takes 0.82. So in this example Nerwen's SP actually gave less of an advantage than it would have using the *10 system. I imagine this would vary depending on the numbers involved, though.

Ineffectual weaker heroes? Well yes, they're more ineffectual because they're weaker. A level 16 basic-class is unlikely to be as effective as a level 46.8 expert-class. Again, though, I don't understand how the *10 system is better. It's simply a different multiplier.

In fact, in the #102 example, Matthias would have been even more ineffective. With the /7 system, everyones damage was significantly reduced, but the Peashooter's burning damage, applied once and unremedied, could have K/O'ed Chauncey in 103 rounds. With the *10 system, everyone would have been doing standard damage, and the Peashooter's burning in the same circumstances would have taken 1030 rounds to K/O Chauncey.

EDIT: Apostrophe in "plebeians' ".

Edited November 12, 2014 by Myrddyn

[StickFig]

Some raw numbers, that perhaps only Flipz will be able to interpret for any sort of useful knowledge:

/7 System

Chauncey: Level 70, 205 Health, 4 SP

Matthias: Level 16, 21 Health

Matthias deals (16-4)/7=1.71 damage, call it 2, plus 2 Burning per turn. 13 turns (due to compounding Burning) until Chauncey dies. 103 turns without Burning.

Chauncey deals (70-0)/7/2=5 damage. 11 turns (including *Blessed*) until Matthias dies. 5 without *Blessed*.

*10 System

Chauncey: Level 70, 2050 Health, 4 SP

Matthias: Level 16, 210 Health

Matthias deals 16-4=12 damage, plus 2 Burning per turn. 54 turns (compounding Burning) until Chauncey dies. 129 without Burning.

Chauncey deals (70-0)/2=35 damage. 7 turns (including *Blessed*) until Matthias dies. 6 without *Blessed*.

<disclaimer>I am not a QM.</disclaimer>

First observation is that effects (Burning and Blessed in this example) have much more effect in a /7 system than a *10 system, as @Myrddyn pointed out above.

I think that based on this math, Chauncey simply had too much health. If it's to be a PVP fight, then the characters on both sides need to have PC-style stats. Aventine and Chauncey didn't; Aventine had ~2x Alexis' health (using Alexis as a measuring stick because she had 1.5x the next-highest character's health) and Chauncey had ~3x.

For reference, Aventine's party had 310 health and 19 SP between 5 characters (average: 62/4.8); Chauncey's party had 358 and 9 between 4 (average: 89.5/2.25).

Conclusion: It was the drugs. Nerwen was right.

Edited November 12, 2014 by StickFig

[Chromeknight]

This fits with how the battle felt, we simply couldn't deal Chauncey enough damage. And adding inspired on that put it out of the park entirely.

I do note Flipz, you assume under an *10 system Chauncey would have 700-800 health. Why woudn't Zeph, having written his stats multiply the 205 health he had by 10, giving us 2050 we needed to whittle.

As to SP being borked, at one point I was going to take an ambrosia, but 16 vs 32 SP translated into 2 or maybe 3 (depending on rounding) more points of damage reduced. {16/7=2.28 32/7=5.56} which wasn't going to be a significant advantage. In a non PvP battle Ambrosia means stopping OHKOs from high level enemies and bouncing damage from low ones.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Chromeknight

[StickFig]

Adding inspired on that put it out of the park entirely.

Exactly.

[Flipz]

I do note Flipz, you assume under an *10 system Chauncey would have 700-800 health. Why woudn't Zeph, having written his stats multiply the 205 health he had by 10, giving us 2050 we needed to whittle.

As to SP being borked, at one point I was going to take an ambrosia, but 16 vs 32 SP translated into 2 or maybe 3 (depending on rounding) more points of damage reduced. {16/7=2.28 32/7=5.56} which wasn't going to be a significant advantage. In a non PvP battle Ambrosia means stopping OHKOs from high level enemies and bouncing damage from low ones.

Aventine and Chauncey both had player classes. I assume that if Zepher had planned for an *10 from the beginning, their health would have also been based off of player health amounts for their Level and Class.

I did miss that SP was handled before dividing. In that case, the division is even more pointless, serving only to unnecessarily complicate the calculations.

I disagree with you on the meaning of Ambrosia in non PvP; in my experience, owning an Ambrosia means that all enemy Levels will immediately be doubled from normal until said Ambrosia is used up, or tripled if there's a lower - level party member you want to earn experience.

Ineffectual weaker heroes? Well yes, they're more ineffectual because they're weaker. A level 16 basic-class is unlikely to be as effective as a level 46.8 expert-class. Again, though, I don't understand how the *10 system is better. It's simply a different multiplier.

In fact, in the #102 example, Matthias would have been even more ineffective. With the /7 system, everyones damage was significantly reduced, but the Peashooter's burning damage, applied once and unremedied, could have K/O'ed Chauncey in 103 rounds. With the *10 system, everyone would have been doing standard damage, and the Peashooter's burning in the same circumstances would have taken 1030 rounds to K/O Chauncey.

EDIT: Apostrophe in "plebeians' ".

I didn't mean ineffectual relative to the team, I meant ineffectual as in "been playing for a year and yet still ends up dealing only single-digit damage when it really counts." Even though some QMs tend to inflate enemies so every single battle is a struggle for survival, none of them can take away the satisfaction of the fact that, no matter how small a percentage of the enemy's health my attack is chipping away, the numbers themselves are still getting larger.

...Well, except when they can.

Some raw numbers, that perhaps only Flipz will be able to interpret for any sort of useful knowledge:

/7 System

Chauncey: Level 70, 205 Health, 4 SP

Matthias: Level 16, 21 Health

Matthias deals (16-4)/7=1.71 damage, call it 2, plus 2 Burning per turn. 13 turns (due to compounding Burning) until Chauncey dies. 103 turns without Burning.

Chauncey deals (70-0)/7/2=5 damage. 11 turns (including *Blessed*) until Matthias dies. 5 without *Blessed*.

*10 System

Chauncey: Level 70, 2050 Health, 4 SP

Matthias: Level 16, 210 Health

Matthias deals 16-4=12 damage, plus 2 Burning per turn. 54 turns (compounding Burning) until Chauncey dies. 129 without Burning.

Chauncey deals (70-0)/2=35 damage. 7 turns (including *Blessed*) until Matthias dies. 6 without *Blessed*.

<disclaimer>I am not a QM.</disclaimer>

First observation is that effects (Burning and Blessed in this example) have much more effect in a /7 system than a *10 system, as @Myrddyn pointed out above.

I think that based on this math, Chauncey simply had too much health. If it's to be a PVP fight, then the characters on both sides need to have PC-style stats. Aventine and Chauncey didn't; Aventine had ~2x Alexis' health (using Alexis as a measuring stick because she had 1.5x the next-highest character's health) and Chauncey had ~3x.

For reference, Aventine's party had 310 health and 19 SP between 5 characters (average: 62/4.8); Chauncey's party had 358 and 9 between 4 (average: 89.5/2.25).

Conclusion: It was the drugs. Nerwen was right.

All of that discounts two things: 1) the health would have been altered for a *10 fight, and 2) the damage from the undead. Aventine's undead--the most powerful aspect of the Necromancer class and one without which they are merely severely underwhelming Mages--were severely nerfed by /7. In *10 they deal 125 unblockable damage per Round; in /7 it was 15. Chauncey's minion (the one that could actually deal damage to Aventine, anyway) would have dealt 74 versus 10. 10-15 damage can be healed off with healing or Grand Potions; 125 damage not so much. Don't forget that Chauncey kept losing his light minion to Summon Burst, whereas Aventine's undead were there unless sacrificed.

As one final note, I should point out how much damage was lost to rounding. I bet if someone not on mobile went through and added it all up, the Aventine party would have dealt quite a bit more extra chip damage than the Chauncey one.

[Flare]

Can anyone explain to me why Alexander (Wedge09's character), currently in Quest 113, is sitting at Level 25.99????

And for that matter, William Harkenshire at 20.99, same quest

[CMP]

Can anyone explain to me why Alexander (Wedge09's character), currently in Quest 113, is sitting at Level 25.99????

And for that matter, William Harkenshire at 20.99, same quest

If I had to guess, I'd say they went on some quests and levelled up.

Update incoming for Quest #114. I knew I'd have to rebuild the set I've been slowly cannibalizing but it needed to be cleaned too, it looks like.

[The Legonater]

My fault, sorry.

[Sandy]

While waiting for a chance to start my next quests, I've been busy updating the Heroica RPG Wiki. There's much new info, especially about the NPCs, so do check it out!

[Flipz]

Update for 118 in a couple hours. Unlimited Quest, I still need actions for Darksten.

[Chromeknight]

Aventine and Chauncey both had player classes. I assume that if Zepher had planned for an *10 from the beginning, their health would have also been based off of player health amounts for their Level and Class.

That's an assumption. And its equivalent to saying if Chauncey had less health, Avertine would have won.

I did miss that SP was handled before dividing. In that case, the division is even more pointless, serving only to unnecessarily complicate the calculations.

Yes, and no. And this highlights the difference between the two methods.

Any thing that happens to health after multiplication or before division is attenuated.

In the case of the *10 system, that's everything. So the four things that affect health all move in the same way.

In the case of the /7 system, that's only damage (and SP since it got moved) leaving effects and health proportionally more powerful.

Damage - need to take 10 times as much damage as you'd normally have dealt to you, which gives a feeling of power.

also, still dealing large numbers of damage out, further feeling powerful.

OR -take damage 7 times slower than in a PvE fight, OHKOs are off the table and there feels less threat. But equally dealing seemingly less damage (though here, rounding can alternately help or hinder you).

However

as has been previously noted, tick damage from effects is much more powerful in a division system with unmultiplied health.

a badly poisoned 10 damage to 50 health is much nastier than that same 10 damage to 500 health.

conversely, blessing of +3H can restore a hit of 21damage in a /7 system, it does proportionally much less in a *10 system.

Equally, if someone drinks a potion (+5H) in a /7 system, they've undone a round or two of damage. As you've pointed out, flipz, that's not the case in a *10 system.

Upshot, neither system is objectively 'better'. The *10 system is (much!) simpler, but at the cost of attenuating healing and effects. This just means different tactics are needed.

To win against Chauncey under a /7, Nerwen should have been spam healing Avertine and XX, boring but effective.

[Asphalt]

All of this talk of ten and seven systems is so beyond me at this point.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Asphalt

[Chromeknight]

All of this talk of ten and seven systems is so beyond me at this point.

Heroes hit hard but can't take much damage. Any fight between heroes with modifying the rules is brutally short, one or at best two rounds. The systems we're discussing are different (but very similar) ways to resolve that.

Now that I'm thinling of it, there is a huge difference between PvP and PvE that hasn't been mentioned yet.

Chance of damage.

In PvE, players take damage one or two rolls out of six, ie. rarely. Healing is a secondary action or a response to a series of bad rolls. And stopping to heal may allow an extra free hit, but usually nothing more than that.

In PvP, players take damage usually every round. And if like Zeph did, the order of attackers alternates, the damage is taken consecutively with no response opportunity. This makes healing more crucial but with an crippling opportunity cost. Healing means giving up damaging the opponent. So unless you can heal faster than he can damage, stopping to heal is essentially conceding the fight.

As detailed above, healing faster than damage is much harder in an multiply HP system. Unless healing actions are also multiplied, which negates that system's simplicity.

[Flipz]

In PvP, though, party balance is even more important. Healing from a Cleric has always equal in power to their Hit, with the exact same odds, so I don't see why healing should be favored to become more powerful than their attack by a factor of 7 (or whatever divisor is used). If healing can't keep up with damage intake, then the party itself was poorly balanced (which, to be fair, was a serious serious issue with 102).

I do think that Free Hits should not be a thing with PvP, however. The opponents are already getting their own turn in which to attack the other party, they don't need a Free Hit opportunity every Round on top of that. Once Free Hits are taken out of the equation, *10 PvP ends up being pretty balanced on all sides; healing negates damage roughly equally, SP, healing, and damage over time are equally balanced against enemies as it would be in a PvE battle, and everyone has the same chances of taking damage.

[Chromeknight]

Where to next for Nerwen?

Minstrel, Cannoneer or a different cleric class (Witch/Sage/Druid)?

Got a instrument sitting in your inventory you want to sell? PM me now!

Edited November 13, 2014 by Chromeknight

[Palathadric]

Just thinking how crazily protected Paladin Pretzel would be an a /7 PVP. Sitting in the Back Row with 32 SP, it would almost 450 damage to get in a hit. Since gems don't give multipliers against heroes, that figure would be well-nigh impossible to reach.

Or maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong.

[JimBee]

Where to next for Nerwen?

Minstrel, Cannoneer or a different cleric class (Witch/Sage/Druid)?

Got a instrument sitting in your inventory you want to sell? PM me now!

Cannoneer all the way! I've been wanting to see that class in action (with a PC) for some time now. And once Karie goes Minstrel, we can say that all of the original 7 Expert Classes have been attained by PCs. You should've killed XX for that handcannon... Maybe Math would let you borrow one from his arsenal, although one at the Marketplace is only 50 gold.

And yes, I too am going to give you, Zepher, a hard time about Donnie Darko. Seriously, it's essential. Not to hype it up too much but it's also one of my favorites. Also it's on Netflix so there's no excuse.

[Flipz]

Cannoneer all the way! I've been wanting to see that class in action (with a PC) for some time now. And once Karie goes Minstrel, we can say that all of the original 7 Expert Classes have been attained by PCs. You should've killed XX for that handcannon... Maybe Math would let you borrow one from his arsenal, although one at the Marketplace is only 50 gold.

And yes, I too am going to give you, Zepher, a hard time about Donnie Darko. Seriously, it's essential. Not to hype it up too much but it's also one of my favorites. Also it's on Netflix so there's no excuse.

Eh, Erdy's going Cannoneer if 105 ever ends, and she's already built for it--it's more interesting to see a class that's working as intended rather than hamstrung by lack of prep (i.e. a Cannoneer without a good handcannon AND without enough bombs). I'd rather see Minstrel Nerwen over Cannoneer. That said, I'd like to see that crazy axe in action sometime, so...

[Chromeknight]

Just thinking how crazily protected Paladin Pretzel would be an a /7 PVP. Sitting in the Back Row with 32 SP, it would almost 450 damage to get in a hit. Since gems don't give multipliers against heroes, that figure would be well-nigh impossible to reach.

Or maybe I'm thinking about this all wrong.

depends on if it's SP before or after division. #102 had it before division, so an opponent dealing 33 damage does 1 to you (regardless of row. 80 damage would do 4 damage to you in the back row or 7 in the front.

Cannoneer all the way! I've been wanting to see that class in action (with a PC) for some time now. And once Karie goes Minstrel, we can say that all of the original 7 Expert Classes have been attained by PCs. You should've killed XX for that handcannon... Maybe Math would let you borrow one from his arsenal, although one at the Marketplace is only 50 gold.

If XX had died, Matthias would have stuck a shiv into me had he not got the loot. But yes, I could 'persuade' him to lend me something until my next QM drops something better. Equally #102 isn't over yet :evil:

Eh, Erdy's going Cannoneer if 105 ever ends, and she's already built for it--it's more interesting to see a class that's working as intended rather than hamstrung by lack of prep (i.e. a Cannoneer without a good handcannon AND without enough bombs). I'd rather see Minstrel Nerwen over Cannoneer. That said, I'd like to see that crazy axe in action sometime, so...

Meh, arguably I'm equally unprepared for Minstral (I knew I should have pestered Malty into actually teaching me that song!)

and I don't qualify for any class that uses an axe except shaman.

[StickFig]

You should've killed XX for that handcannon...

If XX had died, Matthias would have stuck a shiv into me had he not got the loot.

Concur on both counts - Matthias would have drooled all over that XX Cannon (pierces SP!) if it had come up. And he still will if it drops in the future. And I drooled all over it from the minute I saw it hahahaha. For now, Nerwen might be able to 'persuade' Matthias into lending her the Peashooter, but I doubt it; that poor gnome has gone to too many (gun)fights with a knife.

...equally balanced against enemies as it would be in a PvE battle....

I think this is the best reason to use *10 in a PvP battle.

[Palathadric]

If I received any consumables or gave any out in 112, let me know so I can return them. I think otherwise I sorted my inventory out.

Also, just editing my inventory, I remember the good ol' days when we used to keep it in our signature.

Is anyone interested in a Pongcanis Quiver (WP +1 to Bows and Crossbows; suitable for Rangers, Beast Warriors, Infiltrators, and Winged Warriors; backwear), or should I sell it to Fabian?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Palathadric

[CMP]

Also, is anyone interested in a Pongcanis Quiver (WP +1 to Bows and Crossbows; suitable for Rangers, Beast Warriors, Infiltrators, and Winged Warriors; backwear), or should I sell it to Fabian?

It's not even as good as the regular Ranger's Quiver. It's just vendor trash, I'd sell it.

Too bad Doc coneys all the realism of an RPG.

[Palathadric]

I thought it was exactly the same just with a fancy name.

[CMP]

I thought it was exactly the same just with a fancy name.

Oh, I thought Ranger's Quiver gave 2 WP for some reason.

[CMP]

I was writing a wiki article and it occurs to me this random dwarven cook might be one of the most well-travelled NPCs in the game. He shows up in seven quests.

I think Wren and Felton show up in all the Wren Quests, so that's five. Surely there's some House NPC that's shown up more than him, though. Punii? Altair Ziegfried?