Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Flipz]

Lind, there's already a tool that can detect spies, it was dropped in #120, and while we could probably do with maybe one or two more, they're clearly deliberately rare so as not to short-circuit All The Things. Heroica RPG is a game about collaborative storytelling in a shared fantasy setting, please stop trying to turn it into something it's not.

*puts away quest idea where every Hero is mind controlled by somebody else*

As a single Quest idea, it's fine. It just shouldn't become the focus of the game. If I wanted to play Mafia, I'd be petitioning to join Mafia games; I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feels the same.

And maybe I'm being a little too harsh or too reactive. I'm just seeing a lot of push to change Heroica from the way it is (not just from Lind, to be sure), and not necessarily in a positive way, and it worries me is all.

[Lind Whisperer]

Lind, there's already a tool that can detect spies, it was dropped in #120, and while we could probably do with maybe one or two more, they're clearly deliberately rare so as not to short-circuit All The Things.

I wasn't suggesting it be a regular drop, I was merely proposing it as a drop.

Heroica RPG is a game about collaborative storytelling in a shared fantasy setting, please stop contributing any ideas that in any way might risk changing any parts of a game that has spent four years doing nothing but changing and adapting.

The thing is, I want to challenge this game format and the players from time to time by trying something new. By incorporating a secret traitor into a quest I wanted to test how PvP worked without direct conflict (which usually means a quick end to a quest). I've played Mafia and a couple of "secret agenda" boardgames a lot, so the paranoia caused by a traitor is an intriguing phenomenon.

I liked the "paranoia" aspect Sandy was proposing. I thought, with the changing tides, it might make a nice addition to the game.

As a single Quest idea, it's fine. It just shouldn't become the focus of the game. If I wanted to play Mafia, I'd be petitioning to join Mafia games; I'm sure I'm not the only one here who feels the same.

And I'm equally sure there are other people here who do like the idea of having a Mafia flavor to some quests.

It's not like it's even that useful a tool. It's only useful if you think there might be a traitor, and even then, it doesn't even have a definite chance of working...

[Endgame]

The game has been evolving since quest 1, but I agree that there are some things sprouting that I'm not really fond of.

PvP is on the rise, not sure if I like it or not. I don't really like mafia in my games. The base formula of Heroica is that a goal isproposed, heroes sign up to do it, they're grouped up and thrown into the field to compete it. It's mostly a cooperative game, where a QM sets up hurdles/paths/storylines in advance for players to navigate and effect them as they wish, The story drives the game. In most mafia games, the game drives the story, and is primarily an antagonistic experience between players.

What I do like is the mythos of Heroica. It's become so huge and still so cohesive and I love it. I do think we need to take steps to ensure that prior reading doesn't become too integral, but otherwise, the fact that the game is still "jump in and play" AND so vast is remarkable.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Endgame

[The Legonater]

It's not like it's even that useful a tool. It's only useful if you think there might be a traitor, and even then, it doesn't even have a definite chance of working...

If it's not going to be useful, what's the point in dropping it?

[Emjajoas]

I wasn't suggesting it be a regular drop, I was merely proposing it as a drop.

I liked the "paranoia" aspect Sandy was proposing. I thought, with the changing tides, it might make a nice addition to the game.

And I'm equally sure there are other people here who do like the idea of having a Mafia flavor to some quests.

It's not like it's even that useful a tool. It's only useful if you think there might be a traitor, and even then, it doesn't even have a definite chance of working...

I'll be blunt. Look at it this way, Lind:

It's a useless drop. In the situations where you would want an item like that, it would ruin the fun/tension/etc.

1) In Quests where there's no traitor or chance to use it, it's useless.

2) In quests where there is a traitor and you have a chance to use it, it takes away the whole point.

So why bother?

[Endgame]

Speaking of which, would anyone be interested in a reskin-redrop of the Soul Glass from 105? It allowed you to see the mood/surface thoughts of an NPC. I thought it was cool - it can reveal a lot of stuff besides allegiance, or it can reveal nothing or it can just be funny. The inspriation was a move from SMRPG that allowed you to see the enmy's HP (normally hidden) and their thoughts - one of the hardest bosses in the game has surface thoughts along the line of... "Gotta mow the lawn tonight..." and "Crap, left the oven on..."

I liked it, I don't know if anyone else cared for it.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Endgame

[KotZ]

Don't worry, Flipz, I was joking. I'm still stuck on the Tridentia storyline and there's no way I'm trying to make another quest idea before that one is completed.

[Emjajoas]

Speaking of which, would anyone be interested in a reskin-redrop of the Soul Glass from 105? It allowed you to see the mood/surface thoughts of an NPC. I thought it was cool - it can reveal a lot of stuff besides allegiance, or it can reveal nothing or it can just be funny. The inspriation was a move from SMRPG that allowed you to see the enmy's HP (normally hidden) and their thoughts - one of the hardest bosses in the game has surface thoughts along the line of... "Gotta mow the lawn tonight..." and "Crap, left the oven on..."

I liked it, I don't know if anyone else cared for it.

I really liked the Soul Glass-- I thought it was cool, and I would've liked to have seen it maybe explored a bit more? Not sure what to say about that but overall it was fun.

Actually, it's something I've been meaning to ask:

In 105, would it have been possible to save Alice's sister if we had smashed their paintings? Iirc, part of the battle mechanic was that if the Heroes attacked an Ally who had been made into a painting, it would've freed them.

[Lind Whisperer]

And maybe I'm being a little too harsh or too reactive. I'm just seeing a lot of push to change Heroica from the way it is (not just from Lind, to be sure), and not necessarily in a positive way, and it worries me is all.

This part hadn't been posted when I responded. If it had...I'd have worded my response differently.

The game has been evolving since quest 1, but I agree that there are some things sprouting that I'm not really fond of.

PvP is on the rise, not sure if I like it or not. I don't really like mafia in my games. The base formula of Heroica is that a goal isproposed, heroes sign up to do it, they're grouped up and thrown into the field to compete it. It's mostly a cooperative game, where a QM sets up hurdles/paths/storylines in advance for players to navigate and effect them as they wish, The story drives the game. In most mafia games, the game drives the story, and is primarily an antagonistic experience between players.

What I do like is the mythos of Heroica. It's become so huge and still so cohesive and I love it. I do think we need to take steps to ensure that prior reading doesn't become too integral, but otherwise, the fact that the game is still "jump in and play" AND so vast is remarkable.

^This. Especially the first part of the third sentence. It's a great story, but even having been here a year, there is so much information I still don't know, especially on the Houses...

[Endgame]

In 105, would it have been possible to save Alice's sister if we had smashed their paintings? Iirc, part of the battle mechanic was that if the Heroes attacked an Ally who had been made into a painting, it would've freed them.

Maybe? I don't think a lot of people realize, but you can do a lot of stuff in my quests that I didn't plan for. Karie joining the Syndicate in Q70 was something I just thought of randomly during the hotel room sidequests and decided to throw out about half of the design doc for the rest of the quest. (Continuing on how capricious my quest design process usually is, I came up with the entirety of Q86 on a single bus ride. )Sometimes I'll just roll with it. In that case, I probably would have had her come out with only one arm or something, since that part of the portrait dried.

Speaking of Alice, damn, I completely forgot about her! I need to find a place to write her in to my final quest, now, as she's totally in Eubric...

Edited September 7, 2015 by Endgame

[Emjajoas]

Maybe? I don't think a lot of people realize, but you can do a lot of stuff in my quests that I didn't plan for. Karie joining the Syndicate in Q70 was something I just thought of randomly during the hotel room sidequests and decided to throw out about half of the design doc for the rest of the quest. (Continuing on how capricious my quest design process usually is, I came up with the entirety of 86 on a single bus ride. Sometimes I'll just roll with it. In that case, I probably would have had her come out with only one arm or something, since that part of the portrait dried.

Speaking of Alice, damn, I completely forgot about her! I need to find a place to write her in to my final quest, now, as she's totally in Eubric...

It was something I kept looking back on and thinking, like. "Damn, we really missed an opportunity there." I'm glad nothing was planned, it almost makes me feel better about leaving her to die.

[Endgame]

It was something I kept looking back on and thinking, like. "Damn, we really missed an opportunity there." I'm glad nothing was planned, it almost makes me feel better about leaving her to die.

Bet Mortimer is an aquaphobe after Alice forced him to take a quick swim.

I don't know if I ever said this, but had every single hero been tempted by Regret (Masson bedded Karie while she was drugged, Johon drugged Karie, Alice betrayed Mortimer) the ending would've been very different. Long story short, The Regret would realize he f*cked up creating his temporal assassins, hastily use Animutila to splice a few more lifespark embers into him, essentially making him a mindless beast. The battle would've been driving him backwards across the birdge to knock him into the Lifespark. The huge power surge the Oculoids got from that would result in them mowing down the rest of the hunters (including wrecking the Excelsus) before they overloaded and died, and the heroes would have to hijack another boat and ride back to Eubric in shame, with all of the treasure hunters dead.

105's endings, specially the one that transpired (more specifically, no ending at all) are not things I'm proud of.

[Flipz]

The game has been evolving since quest 1, but I agree that there are some things sprouting that I'm not really fond of.

PvP is on the rise, not sure if I like it or not. I don't really like mafia in my games. The base formula of Heroica is that a goal isproposed, heroes sign up to do it, they're grouped up and thrown into the field to compete it. It's mostly a cooperative game, where a QM sets up hurdles/paths/storylines in advance for players to navigate and effect them as they wish, The story drives the game. In most mafia games, the game drives the story, and is primarily an antagonistic experience between players.

What I do like is the mythos of Heroica. It's become so huge and still so cohesive and I love it. I do think we need to take steps to ensure that prior reading doesn't become too integral, but otherwise, the fact that the game is still "jump in and play" AND so vast is remarkable.

I like PvP when it stems from legitimate character choice, when two (groups of) Heroes look at the same situation and come to opposing conclusions of how to resolve it. That's real, that's human, that's Heroica. I don't like it when it becomes this artificial "thing" existing for arbitrary and/or mechanical reasons.

I guess I'm also a bit concerned about the "choose your side" thing being a major paradigm shift rather than a one-time event (and unfairly applied a degree of blame to Lind, for which I apologize). Thus far, politics in Heroica have happened on a personal scale, and it's been awesome--with each individual having their own political and social motivations, there's tons of differing perspectives and situations where everyone's voice has a meaningful impact. We have close friends who agree in their alliance towards one House, while being equally strong advocates towards opposing Houses. With the rise of parties and collectivism, however, I worry that the voice of individual characters is going to be drowned out by the party alliances, drowning out all the wonderful stories of unlikely allies that are currently possible.

I dunno, I'm in a bit of an abstract thought/discussion mood today (which is great for Quest planning, actually, since it's when I tend to get my totally off-the-wall "holy crap, if I put together this plot thread with this plot thread it would be something awesome to explore!" moments ), and the idea of a massive, permanent change out of nowhere has been weighing on my mind ever since Sandy announced it wasn't just a singular event. I'm all for change and experimentation in isolated events, but I'm less certain about it when it happens on such a large scale. I guess you could say I prefer gradual evolution over sudden change. But, to an extent my worrying doesn't really change anything--we don't know how things will change with the alliances until Sandy runs the event, and either way my meandering ramblings don't really change anything, so...

Maybe? I don't think a lot of people realize, but you can do a lot of stuff in my quests that I didn't plan for. Karie joining the Syndicate in Q70 was something I just thought of randomly during the hotel room sidequests and decided to throw out about half of the design doc for the rest of the quest. (Continuing on how capricious my quest design process usually is, I came up with the entirety of Q86 on a single bus ride. )Sometimes I'll just roll with it. In that case, I probably would have had her come out with only one arm or something, since that part of the portrait dried.

Speaking of Alice, damn, I completely forgot about her! I need to find a place to write her in to my final quest, now, as she's totally in Eubric...

Alatreon?

I was under the impression that the paint had already dried, so she was beyond saving--not to mention I had it in my head until just now that only Seerus could extract someone from the canvas curse, so...

[Endgame]

(Can anyone tell what's my second favorite game series, behind the first two Paper Marios? )

I have no plans for Alatreon. He went back to Dastan after killing a bunch of Oculoids. I considered brining him back for 138, but he had nothing to contribute besides "I'm a dragon, 'sup?"

Masson taking the Curse for Boomingham is still one of my favorite moments for Masson. How ungrateful Boomingham was is also great.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Endgame

[Zepher]

I'm pretty happy with Boomingham in 105, to be honest. I've worked for a long time to make him not fully likable and not fully unlikable - modeled after many of my favorite PCs. I've said it every two months (or every time I finish hosting them/watching them play) but the reason I love my favorite PCs is because they don't have likable sides/dislikable sides, but rather traits that serve as both those things. Nerwen, Guts, Nur, Eric, Hoke, Arthur... all of them come from that. It's a great example. I always try to employ that in PCs and NPCs.

[UsernameMDM]

And apparently Hoke is exhibiting one of his new(ish)ly developed unlikable traits.

[Zepher]

No, I love Hoke. I used to think of him as a sort of "standard" character, sort of middle of the road, but I've come to view him as rigidly principled. I'm really glad I've hosted him for so many years, he's pretty awesome. Because of 139 West I've been reading the end of Baltarok a lot, and he really showed his true colors there in the same way that he's showing them now in Dastan. One of my favorite parts of the end of Baltarok (and seriously, so much good role playing, Purpearl and Matthias and Nerwen and Guts show fantastic ability there too) is when he declares "this is the way this is happening" and then gets on the boat and falls asleep.

I also love Guts telling a King that his son died and just of being like "yeah, whatever". I forgot that happened.

[UsernameMDM]

then gets on the boat and falls asleep.

A sign of a man with a clear conscience.

[Flipz]

Hoke's always been kind of rigid (insert punchline here ), it's just that he's only started to vocalize it as he's gained the physical strength to back up his opinions. Arthur, by contrast, has always been quick to judge, quick to take sides, quick to assume he's right--and only now does he have the martial strength to go toe-to-toe with giants like Hoke and Hybros and Guts. Miirym, interestingly, has absorbed some of this from Arthur (and OOC some of Nerwen's speciesist superiority, which was a deliberate inspiration on my end to capture the wonderful alien-ness Zepher has with Vipera), but she suffers from the same thing Arthur did at first: she has strong ideas, but not the statistical strength to back them up. A lot of her development will depend on how well she is able to use the strength she's gaining in Dastan to support her own ideals.

I myself just re-read all of Baltarok today (looking for scenes I could steal--damn you all for making beautiful establishing shots I completely can't use because they prominently feature characters that won't be there this time! *shakes fist* ), and was struck again by how well-done so much of it is. I kind of wish I'd voted for Guts as most humorous in the Henrys--I stumbled across this fantastic moment just a couple of hours ago (...which I can't quote directly because Piiiiiiie...! ):

"Olmstyr, I want you to attack Kanvyral B with me from the back row."

Olmstyr stumbled towards the Kanvyral a few steps before faceplanting into the dirt.

"...Or not."

[The Legonater]

I re-read the whole bridge confrontation to get a background for Dyric's reactions to David. It was chaos at the time, but man that scene is amazing.

Dyric's always been rather bold in his convictions. He knows his guns and he sticks to them firm. He's been more and more disillusioned lately, and I'm excited for where that's going to take him.

[Flipz]

"No disrespect to you my friend, but he employed us to retrieve artefacts, as questionable as it sounds to me now, not lick his boots or die in a foreign country's civil war, especially since we do not and cannot fully grasp what is and has traspired in this land among its people."

Hoke looks over the crowd, and sees desperate faces filled with anger and frustration. Whether their rage was righteous or misplaced, he doesn't know and knows neither he nor his comrades will be able to ascertain which it is.

"We can't fix this and have already spilled too much blood for a conflict not our own."

Hoke looks to the crowd and back to the palace.

"We are doing a disservice to this land, these people and to our hosts."

"Do you think we can simply walk away from this and proclaim none of this is our business when we have been attacked in the first place? And when the people that are involved in this are people who can help us with our purpose here, I think it is necessary to protect them, even if it is to stick our head into their internal affairs."

"As it stands, we are protecting the very people who possesses the artefacts that will enable us do what we have to do here in Dastan." Purpearl continues to remain cryptic in front of the mass of angry mob while she watches the fight between the champions.

See, things like these remind me how different the three parties' experience was in Baltarok, how right or not it was presented for them to be meddling in the nations' affairs like that. It's very different from what we had in Dastan, where we all had our own goals but were (for the most part) on the same side, working for the greater good of Dastan.

Similarly:

<Arthur's misguided-righteousness does not impress me, neither does his assumption that he knows what's best for an entire country and a collection of people groups.>

Hoke shakes his head remembering the time his fellow Dragoon stepped aside in an effort to let a mad witch attempt to ascend to god-hood.

It fascinates me that this is the first time Hoke's actively referred to the events in the Temple, aloud or internally. Especially considering what Arthur said here:

And where that path led...I failed to stand up for them--Mallelio, Vipera, Phil--I failed them once before. You remember. I did not stand for them then. I will stand for them now."

There's this sort of rich dichotomy between the two perspectives--Hoke seems to think Arthur's doing this from the same place that led him to try to let Wren ascend (and who knows, maybe it is the same place, restructured around his changed mindset), whereas Arthur's seeing this fight as a chance to make up for what he perceives as a debt he owes Phil and Mallelio and Vipera.

Or maybe I'm just gushing because no one but Arthur's really brought up 53 anytime recently and someone really needs to just shut me up.

[Zepher]

Actually, re-reading Baltarok, Dyric brought Wren up right before the final battle.

It's been nearly 3 years since Wren died, and I think she's brought up plenty, which makes me grateful.

I'm also extremely happy whenever I host a bunch of old questees. So much shared history makes for crazy complex but informed party dynamics, and it only gets better over time. Thanks for sticking with me over all these years and making it a richer experience to host y'all each time.

[UsernameMDM]

It's a mix really. Basically Hoke believes Arthur's judgement is too impassioned, making him overcompensate in his decisions. Does that make sense? It's like Arthur is all-or-nothing x infinity.

[Flipz]

It's a mix really. Basically Hoke believes Arthur's judgement is too impassioned, making him overcompensate in his decisions. Does that make sense? It's like Arthur is all-or-nothing x infinity.

That's a very good way of describing Arthur.

[UsernameMDM]

Actually, re-reading Baltarok, Dyric brought Wren up right before the final battle.

It's been nearly 3 years since Wren died, and I think she's brought up plenty, which makes me grateful.

Hoke did too, kind of :

Another orc body lays lifeless at the Heroicans' feet. The witch (Bastala) still stands, looking only a bit disheveled.

Hoke doesn't like witches.

And I just re-read the Baltarok final battle. MAN! Such great role-play from almost everyone involved! And poor QMs! Those OOC battle mechanic, did-you-roll-this-right comments were insane!

Edited September 7, 2015 by UsernameMDM