Heroica RPG General Discussion

[swils]

Orcs: The Kingdoms are gonna attack us and try to wipe us out.

Heroes: Don't be ridiculous. The Kingdoms would *never* be stupid enough to start and unprovoked war for no good reason.

Orcs: Well...okay, fine, we'll do it your way.

*The Kingdoms start an unprovoked war for no good reason.*

Heroes: ...well, shit.

Orcs: NOW do you believe us?!

Heroes: ...yeah, f*ck those guys. UP YOURS, KINGDOMS!

This is fairly accurate.

[CMP]

To be fair Marga and Clan Aj-Kahr were going to do basically the exact same thing to the Kingdoms, but the Baltarok heroes managed to stop them. The Kingdoms heroes were kinda dealing with a viking invasion when Prince Speros rode off.

I forgot how much I enjoyed those quests. I recently updated the Baltarok post on the wiki with information concerning the current going-ons in Baltarok....did I ever mention how utterly different the clan leader makeup could've been depending on player choice? I love doing that in quests.

Edited September 12, 2015 by CallMePie

[The Legonater]

To be fair Marga and Clan Aj-Kahr were going to do basically the exact same thing to the Kingdoms, but the Baltarok heroes managed to stop them. The Kingdoms heroes were kinda dealing with a viking invasion when Prince Speros rode off.

I forgot how much I enjoyed those quests. I recently updated the Baltarok post on the wiki with information concerning the current going-ons in Baltarok....did I ever mention how utterly different the clan leader makeup could've been depending on player choice? I love doing that in quests.

I guess it's a good thing we pulled off the clan meet with perfection!

Wait.

[Khorne]

(Someone share the quick version of the Baltarok Trilogy for us youngsters.)

You should try and read that trilogy if you find some time. It's a good read. I especially loved Pie's part (but the others were very good quests too!). I loved how fleshed out the Orcs and their culture was . The trilogy's story and RP are terrific.

[UsernameMDM]

To be fair Marga and Clan Aj-Kahr were going to do basically the exact same thing to the Kingdoms, but the Baltarok heroes managed to stop them. The Kingdoms heroes were kinda dealing with a viking invasion when Prince Speros rode off.

Exactly. And what about the orcs attacking the bridge for how many times before the heroes got there? Truth be told there were NO good/honest/clean sides on that quest, yet many saw the orcs as 'oppressed' and, the OH NO! We gotta save them! came out. This, despite that fact, that the orcs didn't even like each other to begin with AND there was friction within that one clan between the leader and his daughter. So, in Hoke's summation, the orcs couldn't get their act together, and didn't look like they could get their act together. The paladins were jerks as well as Mint's son, who, in the end were dealt with.

Hoke hasn't had experience (to my knowledge) of being an outcast, of being the bottom rung of a social ladder that hates you for things about yourself that are impossible to change.

Boohoo? Here's an idea: get over it. Grow up. Do something about it.

[The Legonater]

Boohoo? Here's an idea: get over it. Grow up. Do something about it.

That's what they were trying to do. Also, what's this that the orcs were attacking the bridge before hand? I don't recall that.

[UsernameMDM]

That's what they were trying to do. Also, what's this that the orcs were attacking the bridge before hand? I don't recall that.

By getting rid of the Orc chief that actually wanted peace and replacing him with one that wanted to kill everyone? Yeah, good way to do that...

http://www.eurobrick...ic=89125&st=125

And if they had made it over the bridge, I am pretty sure there would have been a slaughter.

If y'all haven't figured out that Zepher quests are morally ambiguous/lose-lose, then I don't know what to tell you. If you solve one problem, it either leaves one unattended to that gets worse or it causes another one to pop up. Lots of unswayable NPCs, multiple factions at odds, etc etc.

Edited September 12, 2015 by UsernameMDM

[Scubacarrot]

I guess it's a good thing we pulled off the clan meet with perfection!

Wait.

If y'all haven't figured out that Zepher quests are morally ambiguous/lose-lose, then I don't know what to tell you. If you solve one problem, it either leaves one unattended to that gets worse or it causes another one to pop up. Lots of unswayable NPCs, multiple factions at odds, etc etc.

Except Guffington quests. They're always a bit more out there.

[UsernameMDM]

Except Guffington quests. They're always a bit more out there.

I am sure there is a LOT we are missing on ALL of these quests. Just have to push the right buttons which are often overlooked.

[Zepher]

Will throw my hat into the having severe computer troubles ring! My laptop flat out won't turn on past the boot up screen... so I'm hoping it gets better but if not we might have a bit of a pause in these quests. I just got it fixed last year. Bah.

[Palathadric]

Windows 10 is the new nemesis of Heroica.

Quest 150: Kill Windows.

Not that I think Zepher's problem has anything to do with Windows 10.

[Zepher]

My problem is the deepest down the rabbit hole of a compute I've ever gone. Trying to back up my files so that I can reformat my disk... whatever the hell that all means. So probably no update until Monday when I can get this to my schools IT. Unless I become a tech genius. I'm really hoping my files aren't gone, I have all the pictures for quests on this!

[Flipz]

My problem is the deepest down the rabbit hole of a compute I've ever gone. Trying to back up my files so that I can reformat my disk... whatever the hell that all means. So probably no update until Monday when I can get this to my schools IT. Unless I become a tech genius. I'm really hoping my files aren't gone, I have all the pictures for quests on this!

I recommend uploading all of your pics to Flickr and just setting them to private until you need them (it's what I've been doing with 141 set pics). Then again, if you can't even boot up in the first place, I'm not sure what to tell you.

[KotZ]

Windows 10 is the new nemesis of Heroica.

Quest 150: Kill Windows.

Not that I think Zepher's problem has anything to do with Windows 10.

See this is why we should just all use magic instead of science.

[Flipz]

Exactly. And what about the orcs attacking the bridge for how many times before the heroes got there? Truth be told there were NO good/honest/clean sides on that quest, yet many saw the orcs as 'oppressed' and, the OH NO! We gotta save them! came out. This, despite that fact, that the orcs didn't even like each other to begin with AND there was friction within that one clan between the leader and his daughter. So, in Hoke's summation, the orcs couldn't get their act together, and didn't look like they could get their act together. The paladins were jerks as well as Mint's son, who, in the end were dealt with.

Just because the Kingdoms heroes couldn't get the Kingdoms' act together doesn't mean the Baltarok heroes couldn't get Baltarok's act together--which they basically had before Immaelstym happened.

Boohoo? Here's an idea: get over it. Grow up. Do something about it.

As Legonater said, that's what they were trying to do. It's also kind of hard to "do something about it" when the people who hate you are actively trying to deny you your basic human rights and treat you like you're some kind of subhuman monster, unworthy of respect or consideration.

By getting rid of the Orc chief that actually wanted peace and replacing him with one that wanted to kill everyone? Yeah, good way to do that...

http://www.eurobrick...ic=89125&st=125

And if they had made it over the bridge, I am pretty sure there would have been a slaughter.

If y'all haven't figured out that Zepher quests are morally ambiguous/lose-lose, then I don't know what to tell you. If you solve one problem, it either leaves one unattended to that gets worse or it causes another one to pop up. Lots of unswayable NPCs, multiple factions at odds, etc etc.

Those Orcs were trying to destroy the bridge, not cross it. Also, how are they any worse than the Boulders troops doing patrols within Baltarok itself, which the Kindgoms Heroes participated in instead of actually cleaning up the Kingdoms' act? Until the viking raid, the Kingdoms party's role was to play along with the Kingdoms' game (which, to be fair, is what their employer told them to do), whereas the Baltarok party's goal was to actually fix Baltarok's problems.

And RE: Grishnod vs. Bastala, that's not a real choice, considering that if they hadn't brought back Grishnod, Bastala would have been assassinated anyway; "keep Bastala in power" wasn't an option. (Also, you do realize it was the Kingdoms' employer who put the "one who wants to kill everyone" in place of Bastala, right? )

The Orcs had problems, yes, and racing up to the bridge in a war party did not help matters. Considering the Kingdoms refused to consider a peaceful option at all until post-bridge (again, the Baltarok party WAS Baltarok's attempt at a peaceful option, and it damn near worked), and that the Kingdoms both threw the first punch AND were prepared to war in the name of genocide (as opposed to Baltarok, who wanted to free their enslaved people [good motive] on top of getting their revenge [bad motive]), it's not hard to see why people saw the Kingdoms as more in the wrong than Baltarok. Yes, it was a wrong-wrong, lose-lose situation, but the Kingdoms were well more in the wrong overall. (And I mean, hell, they preferred to try to make peace with the FIRE NORDS, the "we fight because we're Klingons Fire Nords" people who STARTED the whole mess, rather than the Orcs they had enslaved and penned into their country for generations. Not exactly a sympathetic action there.)

Actually, the Fire Nords seem to be the sort of people that Sven wanted Dastan to become under his rule, now that I think of it; is that really the direction the Heroes want the nation to go after all the work they've put into it?

[Palathadric]

It's also kind of hard to "do something about it" when the people who hate you are actively trying to deny you your basic human rights and treat you like you're some kind of subhuman monster, unworthy of respect or consideration.

But that's what they are...

[UsernameMDM]

I could just quote that entire post and respond with and be justified, but...

1. Like I said before, both sides had elements that wanted war, and neither was WHOLLY just/good. To say otherwise is to purposefully ignore the evidence presented in the quest(s).

2. Orcs & U'kin aren't humans, so... And I replied to Legonator, and, after reading the quests, the Orcs were only unified in hate & blood lust at that time. No faction/clan was interested in holding just the guilty accountable.

3. What context clues did you gather that say the orcs were ONLY after the bridge? Destroying the bridge may have been a grand plan, but it wasn't their sole intent, just see the last battle.

4. Heroicans are mercenaries, not heroes, in the strictest sense.

5. Outcomes are only partially dictated by the PCs. Sure we can swoop in and save the day, once, but a QM can have any bad guy/faction/nation show up and poo-poo on the whole situation, just like in real life. I would like to point out that it looks like there is PEACE AND A BRIDGE in Baltarok as of this quest.

6. It's great to have QMs make quest that we are still talking about quite passionately YEARS after they are over.

Edited September 12, 2015 by UsernameMDM

[CMP]

And RE: Grishnod vs. Bastala, that's not a real choice, considering that if they hadn't brought back Grishnod, Bastala would have been assassinated anyway; "keep Bastala in power" wasn't an option. (Also, you do realize it was the Kingdoms' employer who put the "one who wants to kill everyone" in place of Bastala, right? )

Actually I believe the Quest 90 heroes could've instead sided with Bastala in the Trial and kept her in power instead, but I might be mistaken.

Also Flipz you're not accounting for the Kingdoms and Orcs being split up into smaller groups with different goals.

[UsernameMDM]

Actually I believe the Quest 90 heroes could've instead sided with Bastala in the Trial and kept her in power instead, but I might be mistaken.

I thought some heroes supported her. Hoke was not high-fived by Guts & Haldor after he whipped her in the last battle AFTER promising not to finish her off is she surrendered.

And that's something that annoys me. We couldn't save Mint (I think?), yet, after Hoke DECIMATES Bastala, she gets revived. Lame.

[CMP]

And that's something that annoys me. We couldn't save Mint (I think?), yet, after Hoke DECIMATES Bastala, she gets revived. Lame.

The world would be a much emptier place if everyone the heroes fought died.

[Flipz]

I could just quote that entire post and respond with and be justified, but...

1. Like I said before, both sides had elements that wanted war, and neither was WHOLLY just/good. To say otherwise is to purposefully ignore the evidence presented in the quest(s).

2. Orcs & U'kin aren't humans, so... And I replied to Legonator, and, after reading the quests, the Orcs were only unified in hate & blood lust at that time. No faction/clan was interested in holding just the guilty accountable.

3. What context clues did you gather that say the orcs were ONLY after the bridge? Destroying the bridge may have been a grand plan, but it wasn't their sole intent, just see the last battle.

4. Heroicans are mercenaries, not heroes, in the strictest sense.

5. Outcomes are only partially dictated by the PCs. Sure we can swoop in and save the day, once, but a QM can have any bad guy/faction/nation show up and poo-poo on the whole situation, just like in real life (Middle East anyone???). I would like to point out that it looks like there is PEACE AND A BRIDGE in Baltarok as of this quest.

6. It's great to have QMs make quest that we are still talking about quite passionately YEARS after they are over.

1. Neither side was wholly good. I've said this several times. However, the Kingdoms were MORE BAD.

2a. It doesn't matter if, genetically speaking, they aren't Human; they're still people.

2b. The Orcs' goals changed as a result of Immaelstym. Prior to that, half of them seemed fine with just defending their own turf and that's it; of the two clans that were pushing for war, the Heroes dealt with one and the other was the rallying point for the attack on the bridge post-Immaelstym (i.e. the ones the Baltarok Heroes couldn't get to before said clan was "proven right" in the eyes of the Orcs by the Kingdoms' stupidity). It's only after the most peaceful clan was attacked out of the blue that the entirety of Baltarok decided to go to war.

3. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned on the Baltarok side that those troops specifically wanted to destroy the bridge; one of the "hostile" clans wanted to destroy the bridge, while the other wanted to cross it.

4. I'm not sure where I seem to imply I don't believe this? It still doesn't mean that some Heroes don't want to be heroes with a lowercase "h".

5a. Granted, the party was following their employer's orders. On the bridge, though, the Heroes were allowed to make their own choice; if they believed that their employer was in the wrong, that was the place where the players were given the freedom to act according to that belief.

5b. It should be pointed out that both Baltarok and Dastan ASKED for Heroica's help. Olmystyr and Phil both knew their nation and made the call that Hero help would, in fact, help more than it hurt. That's their call to make, and refusing to answer it is just as much "I know better than you how to handle your culture" as actually answering the call to interfere.

6. Baltarok touched on some really universal themes (namely racism and bigotry), which have only become more relevant over time; the trilogy also handled them in a subtle enough manner that there is room for people to discuss their ambiguities; it's something I like about all three QMs involved, and one reason Baltarok was much more divisive and controversial than the original Dastan trilogy (where at least one QM had a much more straightforward style).

Actually I believe the Quest 90 heroes could've instead sided with Bastala in the Trial and kept her in power instead, but I might be mistaken.

Also Flipz you're not accounting for the Kingdoms and Orcs being split up into smaller groups with different goals.

I think that would have been Quest Failure, though, since Bastala said she wouldn't free Valentino (though only WBD knows for sure).

IIRC, Musalnav was pretty much completely for peace (as much as an entire clan of individual people can be, obviously), Irlaz didn't really care (under Bastala)/had more pressing matters (under Grishnod), and Aj-Kahr and Tarokin were both pushing for aggression. Of the latter two, I seem to recall one wanting the bridge taken out (I want to say Aj-Kahr?) and the other wanted it to stay so they could invade; correct me if I'm misremembering, the clanmeet was a little hard to follow.

EDIT: The Kingdoms seemed a lot more united than the Orcs. IIRC the big difference was that Four Boulders was more miliaristic overall, while Red Lizards was peaceful except for the zealot paladins...who happened to be basically ruling the country through David.

I thought some heroes supported her. Hoke was not high-fived by Guts & Haldor after he whipped her in the last battle AFTER promising not to finish her off is she surrendered.

And that's something that annoys me. We couldn't save Mint (I think?), yet, after Hoke DECIMATES Bastala, she gets revived. Lame.

The Baltarok Heroes seemed to support her (since she was more pro-outside than Grishnod), while the Circus Heroes seemed to prefer Grishnod overall.

Mint fought, was beaten, and then got up again to try and fight more, which ended with him being killed by an NPC. When Bastala got up again (with Haldor's help), she didn't immediately resume the offensive, so she was allowed to live. The lesson here is: when someone beats the crap out of you, stay down afterwards and there's a chance you'll live.

Unless you fight Hoke, I guess, in which case he'll just straight-up murderate your face or something.

Edited September 12, 2015 by Flipz

[CMP]

IIRC, Musalnav was pretty much completely for peace (as much as an entire clan of individual people can be, obviously), Irlaz didn't really care (under Bastala)/had more pressing matters (under Grishnod), and Aj-Kahr and Tarokin were both pushing for aggression. Of the latter two, I seem to recall one wanting the bridge taken out (I want to say Aj-Kahr?) and the other wanted it to stay so they could invade; correct me if I'm misremembering, the clanmeet was a little hard to follow.

EDIT: The Kingdoms seemed a lot more united than the Orcs. IIRC the big difference was that Four Boulders was more miliaristic overall, while Red Lizards was peaceful except for the zealot paladins...who happened to be basically ruling the country through David.

Exactly.

[Flipz]

Actually, I suppose the "Fathers and sons" theme of 88 comes in here; both of the "fathers" were fairly reasonable people, while the sons were militaristic bigots. In both cases, the sons effectively controlled their Kingdoms (Speros through the military, David directly and through the Paladins), which is where the stupid actions generally originated from; Valentino was a prisoner, while King Speros basically had very little control over his own nation's military, to the point where Mint and Prince Speros basically walked all over him until they were killed.

[CMP]

I guess it's a good thing we pulled off the clan meet with perfection!

Wait.

I missed this earlier. Actually, if you had failed that puzzle Karstaal would not have given you his support and would've died of his wounds after Imaestym.

[Flipz]

Calamity checks the fallen table for anything that seems useful or relevant.

"Wouldn't it be great if my spells started being effective again?"

Darkness isn't one of the better elements for world interaction. It's fantastic for stealth (seriously, why don't more people do that? ), but not so much when you need to, say, build a bridge over a canyon or freeze a lake or [REDACTED] (oops, sorry Pie kudos on the subtle design, though ).

I used to give the advice "read the original BIONICLE run" as a great example of using elemental powers in an interesting and effective way, but looking back there's an unfortunate amount of "just blast it" going on in some parts. Anyone know of any books/comics/movies/TV shows that are really good at illustrating elemental powers?

...I'm an idiot. Why did my mind not immediately go to Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra?

Edited September 12, 2015 by Flipz