Heroica RPG General Discussion

[Flipz]

So you're saying attacking the insane murderer was too much ' I do what I want', and less 'follow the quest'?

You never once made it clear that allying with Zane was the only option. Sure, you pushed to it. But it's a ridiculous option. He threatened us and straight out told us he would abuse whatever he got from the cooperation. Maybe if all of us knew the character, it would make sense, but they don't. He's volatile and crazy, and his court just mostly wants to kill things, especially Medusa. I really thought there was another way to make it work. If that failed us the quest, I'm very sorry, Legonater, especially.

First rule of Zepher NPCs: they're uncooperative, sometimes dramatically so.

Second rule of Zepher NPCs: the "practical" and/or "logical" solution for dealing with them almost never works.

Third rule of Zepher NPCs: bring dozens of Phoenix Essences, because they are a ***** to keep alive.

Ladies and gentlemen, Zepher NPCs in a nutshell.

Also, if you're dealing with Zane, then you're operating on Wren Quest rules rather than post-Wren rules, meaning anything you try to do will likely have some dramatically negative side-effect. Dunno why Legonater failed to warn you about that, though.

[The Legonater]

No need to apologize, Scuba - to be honest I'm with you here. Dyric is the only one in the group that knows Zane, and even he doesn't trust him. Guts and Matthias have been perfectly in character. While I see Zeph's point, the fact is these are two very strong willed characters pitted against each other, and neither is backing down any time soon.

[Endgame]

I'm running into that in #143. Lind's honest reaction is, "Well, I hired on to get the Leaf for Gabriel, so I don't want to violate that contract, but there's nothing preventing me from afterwards going off on a wild Leaf chase with Flame Head Guy for more Leaf."

I don't want to give Endgame too much of a headache, but neither do I want to break character...

Sometimes, a choice has to be made. This is the last confrontation of 143, so I'll probably be talking about this in the QM lounge over the weekened when it wraps up.

[UsernameMDM]

To Boomingham - Geralt's Quickdraw scabbard (Allows the user to switch melee weapons without wasting a turn, Backwear)

That's already how it works.

[Scubacarrot]

Is that a Witcher reference, because he got two swords?

[Pyrovisionary]

Is that a Witcher reference, because he got two swords?

Yup, loved the second game, haven't played the third.

That's already how it works.

Oh, crap. Well, I'm an idiot.

[Zepher]

So you're saying attacking the insane murderer was too much ' I do what I want', and less 'follow the quest'?

You never once made it clear that allying with Zane was the only option. Sure, you pushed to it. But it's a ridiculous option. He threatened us and straight out told us he would abuse whatever he got from the cooperation. Maybe if all of us knew the character, it would make sense, but they don't. He's volatile and crazy, and his court just mostly wants to kill things, especially Medusa. I really thought there was another way to make it work. If that failed us the quest, I'm very sorry, Legonater, especially.

What other way?

"The plan is the same. We save Daneeka, we kill Zane." Guts folded his arms as if that were the end of that.

The attacking him wasn't too much of you doing what you want, but he outmatched you about a month ago now. So that can't still be the same plan. You wanted to hire people to attack him, so I sent Guts back out of the Wasteland where he could do that (alternate option #1). But you didn't want to do that, so you went back into the wasteland, and I understood you were in a rush, so I sent bandits to follow you so that you could talk with them and convince them to kill Zane with you (alternate option #2). Guts could have bribed them, or killed their leader, or told them you could lead them to the Fountain, or told them that you could kill the Soul Sucker. But instead, as Guts' only strategy ever is, you tried to kill them. So I presented one of Zane's lackeys, alone without Zane to back her up, to capture as a bargaining tool, which is a suggestion that had already been made (alternate option #3). But Guts tried to kill her. And even when you made it back I offered for a sixth time for you to ally yourself with Zane (alternate option #4), but Guts just tried to kill him again, which loops us back to the very thing you fled from in the first place...

And how many times does Zane offer an olive branch before giving up? He sends help when you fight Necromancers (1), he then offers to go with you to the Fountain (2), and then after you attack him outright he still offers to go together to the Fountain (3), and then after he's stuck with Dyric he agrees to go save Dyric's friends instead of his own (4) and then Dyric welches and Guts tries to kill him. So does he offer a fifth time then? How many times before his friendly will to let the heroes come with him so they can both achieve their goals expires? Probably after the second death threat, right?

So that is why I find myself a little frustrated now. Not because you attacked him then, but because you still have the same strategy this far down the line. But we'll figure it out. I'm not done allowing the situation to evolve. And I will go fix that battle before the next round. So you're not as failed as I feared.

[Dragonfire]

To Eric - Nordic Yeti fur cloak (Sp:9, causes the Weakened effect to anyone physically attacking the user)

Honestly, I think this is rather offensive Avalanche would not be impressed

[Zepher]

Don't give Eric the Nordic Yeti Fur Coat! It will make it so that he can attack from the front row and only ever be dealt 1/4 damage.

[Palathadric]

If I get another Tasty Pretzel, I will kill those who suggested it for me!

[Pedguin]

If I get another Tasty Pretzel, I will kill those who suggested it for me!

Uhh...

Monk Pretzel =

Tasty Pretzel - 1/3 chance each of granting Lucky, Hastened and Encouraged-effects upon consumption for the duration of one battle.

And this isOP. Not that I'm complaining.

To Cree - Speed Cape - Gives permanent hastened, nimble, and dodgy (see quest 104)

Edited December 10, 2015 by Pedguin

[KotZ]

And this isOP. Not that I'm complaining.

That was in 104? Strange, I don't remember that artifact.

[Pedguin]

That was in 104? Strange, I don't remember that artifact.

I think he means the dodgy effect.

And Scorpiox, you cannot hide from me.

Edited December 10, 2015 by Pedguin

[Scubacarrot]

The attacking him wasn't too much of you doing what you want, but he outmatched you about a month ago now. So that can't still be the same plan. You wanted to hire people to attack him, so I sent Guts back out of the Wasteland where he could do that (alternate option #1). But you didn't want to do that, so you went back into the wasteland, and I understood you were in a rush, so I sent bandits to follow you so that you could talk with them and convince them to kill Zane with you (alternate option #2). Guts could have bribed them, or killed their leader, or told them you could lead them to the Fountain, or told them that you could kill the Soul Sucker. But instead, as Guts' only strategy ever is, you tried to kill them. So I presented one of Zane's lackeys, alone without Zane to back her up, to capture as a bargaining tool, which is a suggestion that had already been made (alternate option #3). But Guts tried to kill her. And even when you made it back I offered for a sixth time for you to ally yourself with Zane (alternate option #4), but Guts just tried to kill him again, which loops us back to the very thing you fled from in the first place...

And how many times does Zane offer an olive branch before giving up? He sends help when you fight Necromancers (1), he then offers to go with you to the Fountain (2), and then after you attack him outright he still offers to go together to the Fountain (3), and then after he's stuck with Dyric he agrees to go save Dyric's friends instead of his own (4) and then Dyric welches and Guts tries to kill him. So does he offer a fifth time then? How many times before his friendly will to let the heroes come with him so they can both achieve their goals expires? Probably after the second death threat, right?

So that is why I find myself a little frustrated now. Not because you attacked him then, but because you still have the same strategy this far down the line. But we'll figure it out. I'm not done allowing the situation to evolve. And I will go fix that battle before the next round. So you're not as failed as I feared.

I appreciate you laying out the options for me, it helps when you qm me in the future, to see what kind of stuff I can do. But Zepher, Just because those are options, doesn't seem like those would work to reach our goal in the end, especially at time. Let me explain what I mean. Alternate option 1 = not an option, Dyric, Matthias and Daneeka were in danger. Dyric and Matthias can't die. But Daneeka can, and the anvil is important, too. Guts has to save the party, not run away until he can come back with help, which realistically would take too long to help someone being eaten by a worm and/or in the clutches of crazy guy. Alternate option 2 = I did not find out about the bandits until the very end, and even then, they didn't seem reasonable. It seemed like they were either Zane's creatures or just common bandits preying on treasure hunters, which are usually not very reasonable. Alternate option 3 = I actually considered trying this, and, we still have one close so that's still not impossible, but Zepher, let's be honest, you've had an irregular record when it comes to railroading. After killing the first worm alone, and being lucky at getting that, seemed to me that Guts' best option to deal with any more was to leave them to chomp on medusa after she summoned them. Alternate option 4 = Guts is not negotiating with magic terrorists. Last time that didn't work out. Besides, the situation is not the same. There's worms. There's the other party members who might be willing to jump in now, there's Medusa who is probably eaten by a worm, who might have been responsible for a chunk of his power, I don't know how magic works. Besides, he was busy attacking worms, great opportunity for a knife in the back.

I really think the case for allying with Zane is incredibly weak, even when not considering his craziness, demon-stuff and the fact that he eats souls and is generally completely questionable. Your points: He sends help when fighting the necromancers: I really thought that that was quite an easy battle when we were buffed, before Zane jumped in, so basically he was not very helpful. And then he becomes even crazier than he seemed by sucking the soul out of the necromancer with the angry voice. That makes him double crazy. And there was the whole thing about all the treasure hunters being murdered and stuff. If the party came a week later there'd probably be a prize on the guy's head, who knows.

Anyways, I understand how it might be frustrating for you, I really do, but at the same time, I disagree with your reasoning. His offering to go with us to the fountain is dumb. Here we are, saying for the whole journey how the fountain is probably a very dangerous place, wondering what's the deal with it being so hard to find, having had to deal with those overpowered iceborn crew skeletons that had a sip too many of the ol' eternal life juice that were just the worst, and then there's a crazy guy basically saying I wanna make more of those fella's that are super annoying to deal with and I might or might not want to take over the world at some point in the future and it's going to be your fault and is going to result in a having-to-save-people-because-guilt-quest probably. That just seems avoidable. I think Guts was justified in the second attack too, because having had a glimpse of his stats, clearly he is a big bad. He is worse than 90% of Endgame's villains. He can make half of Guts' gold disappear. That's dumb. That's 4500 gold. In the void, can't take it back. Killing someone when they don't have all that jazz is just smart. Also he is immune to everything and has all buffs. That's ridiculous. Maybe I'm missing something. I wasn't part of the Wren Quests. But honestly, Zane, he's kinda douchy.

What other way?

A way where we don't help Zane.

Maybe the Dastan people would get tired of us fooling around in the desert and fly over or something. Maybe Olmstyr and his buddies forgot something.

[Endgame]

From a QMing standpoint, I'd put Zane's stats that high to delibrately show that the party really can't oppose him - which may or may not be justified in this case.

But yeah, Zane and Natasha's stats? Holy shit, they're strong. I think Zane has more HP than the Eternal Reaper, without all of that fragility and enocuragement shenanigans that made that fight winnable?

Edited December 10, 2015 by Endgame

[Flipz]

From a QMing standpoint, I'd put Zane's stats that high to delibrately show that the party really can't oppose him - which may or may not be justified in this case.

But yeah, Zane and Natasha's stats? Holy shit, they're strong. I think Zane has more HP than the Eternal Reaper, without all of that fragility and enocuragement shenanigans that made that fight winnable?

Natasha from the Dastan side? Dude, Arthur could totally take her 1-on-1 with just an Ambrosia, not that there seems to be any reason to outside of sparring. (Then again, alongside a group of enemies...okay, yeah, that might be less than enjoyable. )

I mean, it would take like two months to whittle down 7,000 HP, but though it's excessive it's doable.

Anyways, I understand how it might be frustrating for you, I really do, but at the same time, I disagree with your reasoning. His offering to go with us to the fountain is dumb. Here we are, saying for the whole journey how the fountain is probably a very dangerous place, wondering what's the deal with it being so hard to find, having had to deal with those overpowered iceborn crew skeletons that had a sip too many of the ol' eternal life juice that were just the worst, and then there's a crazy guy basically saying I wanna make more of those fella's that are super annoying to deal with and I might or might not want to take over the world at some point in the future and it's going to be your fault and is going to result in a having-to-save-people-because-guilt-quest probably. That just seems avoidable. I think Guts was justified in the second attack too, because having had a glimpse of his stats, clearly he is a big bad. He is worse than 90% of Endgame's villains. He can make half of Guts' gold disappear. That's dumb. That's 4500 gold. In the void, can't take it back. Killing someone when they don't have all that jazz is just smart. Also he is immune to everything and has all buffs. That's ridiculous. Maybe I'm missing something. I wasn't part of the Wren Quests. But honestly, Zane, he's kinda douchy.

That's consistent with both Wren herself and everything we had to fight on 53. I think I remember complaining about it myself back then, too. I think that's when I myself started getting really douchy with my stat builds and minmaxing.

[Endgame]

That's consistent with both Wren herself and everything we had to fight on 53. I think I remember complaining about it myself back then, too. I think that's when I myself started getting really douchy with my stat builds and minmaxing.

It's an endless, ravenous cycle, as your min-maxing only causes QMs to buff stuff even more.

[Flipz]

It's an endless, ravenous cycle, as your min-maxing only causes QMs to buff stuff even more.

Hey, I warned both you and Zepher about it when you started pulling stuff. In Zepher's case, he learned quite well from "The Great Flipz party equipment-swapping of Quest 53", though maybe he needs a refresher; you learned pretty well from my complaining on 70, and for the most part have managed to keep things mostly balanced.

But yeah, knowing how fond Zepher is of Jinxed Heroes and Lucky enemies, it's one huge reason I picked Jinxed as one of my Blue Hand Shield immunities, and I imbued my Armor Sundering scroll into my cloak for a similar reason of "I invested heavily into this advantage, by gum I am going to get my money's worth out of it rather than it just being countered." Same reason I've held onto the Duplovian Helmet even though I could just try to collect all gems and imbue them into something; I know you and Zepher both are fond of OP enemies that use Ether for their attacks, that helmet cuts through the BS to make it a fair fight once again (because "Immune to Magic" makes it immune to ALL attacks that use Ether, as well as all elements). If we're talking about "regretting creating a monster you now have to deal with yourself", Arthur is very much high on that list.

Edited December 11, 2015 by Flipz

[Endgame]

...I don't think I've ever used ether based attacks? The only time I put ether on an enemy stat is when I label it as "infinite" because that's spoooooky.

[Flipz]

...I don't think I've ever used ether based attacks? The only time I put ether on an enemy stat is when I label it as "infinite" because that's spoooooky.

I thought the first Oculoid boss used Ether? I may be misremembering. Either way, even if the Ether pool is "infinite", if the skill says it's using Ether to fuel it, it's a no-sell on someone with a Duplovian Helmet.

[samurai-turtle]

If I get another Tasty Pretzel, I will kill those who suggested it for me!

Is this better?

Screw him I think he just threaten to kill me...so he gets nothing.

[Endgame]

I thought the first Oculoid boss used Ether? I may be misremembering. Either way, even if the Ether pool is "infinite", if the skill says it's using Ether to fuel it, it's a no-sell on someone with a Duplovian Helmet.

The boss from 79 used Satellites to attack.

[Flipz]

QM Note: You can, of course, but they're most likely not there to accept the gift they get, so you should concentrate on the active ones.

I hold the right to correct all spelling and make adjustments to any gift suggestion that I see fit in the end. Everyone only gets one gift out of all of these suggestions, but I want to keep them relatively fair nevertheless.

In my case, I suggested those specific gifts for Cronk and Nyx in hopes of luring them back.

To Avalanche, I like you and maybe this will freeze all the lice in your fur, Winterbound Blade (WP:8; [/color]Ice elemental; Each succesful attack has a 1/6 chance to trigger an Avalanche (See Weather Mage) that costs no ether. Will not work on Hot and Dry weathers; Greatsword; Suitable to yetis, nords, norns and undead)

To Monk Pretzel, take these fashionable boots of mine that shine bright like a diamond, Greaves of Holy Ground (SP: 4; Whenever an Undead, Demon or Cursed enemy attacks the wielder, the weather is changed to Bright; Footwear)

To Sorrow, I noticed you loved my gift last year so take this to have even more Ether Pores! Or Cores. Whatever. Core Polarity Shaper (Transforms all Ether Cores in the user's inventory to Health Cores, or vice-versa, depending on the user's choice; Consumable)

To Jon "Sarge" McEncy, so you can stand up straight and on trend when talking back to me, Dread Pirate's Pegleg (SP:5; Successful attacks give the target one gold; Footwear; Suitable to Sarge only)

These are pretty good, actually. I might have to steal borrow the mechanic behind the Winterbound Blade and Greaves of Holy Ground, those would be great mechanics to use in an upcoming boss fight (and then drop as loot).

The boss from 79 used Satellites to attack.

Hmm...did it cost him Ether to spawn them, then? (Duplovian Helmet wouldn't block that, but Sealed would IIRC.)

[Endgame]

No, he just spawned a certain number of them per round, and got buffs/free hits/special activated if they weren't slaughtered fast enough.

[Zepher]

Just because someone has high stats doesn't mean that's a cheat. I'll point once more to 136. When we fought Latte, we were lucky to be saved. When he returned to a prison we were in, we got the hell out of there. We were outmatched, and it made for a far better quest.

There are people out in the world more powerful than heroes. Sorry. That's just gonna be the way things are. It makes for a more dynamic game. It'd be a pretty boring quest if Guts sized everyone up and said "do what I want or I kill you". Can you imagine hosting that for four months? Can you imagine playing that for four months? That sounds like a big ol' snooze fest.

Zane's health was based on Melville exclusively.

So what does Guts do when he's outmatched? Could be a cool moment to see another side of the character. And we have discovered what he does. He still acts macho, and fails to change, and is stubborn to a fault. It's a strong character moment. It's not good for the quest, but it reveals a lot about him.

And I'm wondering what you'd have me change. Have Zane bow down to Guts? Isn't that exactly the same as me suggesting that you change Guts to fit my characters? Or just make it so that you'd get to kill him easy peasy? If you want to go on a quest where you kill person A and then person B and then person C, I don't think I've ever advertised my quests as such.

Or what? Give you even more alternates, because you didn't like the four I offered you? You can reject the choices, but once you have a certain number (get help at the expense of time, ally with Zane, take someone hostage) - life doesn't have infinite options. Neither do games. Sometimes you get a few and pick the best one. I've tried to improve on railroading by offering options, but that doesn't mean offering infinite options.

I'm not angry. It's why I wanted to bring this talk into the public. You and I always butt heads, both when I host and you play, and vice versa, and I always feel like it's productive and never hostile. But I did want to have a public discourse before continuing because it had gotten to the point where I quite frankly put off checking EB because I dreaded updating that quest because I could see we were headed back to where we started.

As for Flipz's points, the main reason I use ether is to help the heroes. Limiting the amount of times an enemy can use an attack is smart, and mostly my ether based attacks are elemental, because I don't think enough elemental immunities get the chance to be utilized.